Player's Book: What's needed?

[Timerover51]

Lords of Space, no! Do not cut all the cool new advanced CharGen! That is some of the stuff that makes it cool. Not every one wants to join a para/military or merchant service so those other seven Careers are awesome.

See, the thing is that T5 is not CT and all that juicy detail is why it is so cool. On the other hand even though I prefer one book to bind them all, I can see breaking them down for the noobs but don't cut it back to CT+. Too many cuts and most of the good new stuff will get lost.

EDIT: Also, 230 pages is not way too long unless you are illiterate, dyslexic, or lazy and even normally lazy/dyslexic (me being one, it is terrible but true) gamers seem to have no problem devoting hours if not days reading a game system. Of course, I do game with some straight up Timmiis who are in fact hunting for mini-max or other exploits so they may be more motivated than the normal gamer. Still, 230 pages is not way too much for players' guide.

Complexity is not our enemy.

I will be extremely blunt. You are probably looking at, at best, a print run of 1500 to 2000 copies of a 230+ page book, 8.5 X 11. How much are you going to have to charge to cover your costs plus achieve a small profit? A quick check with a printer that I have used indicates for a run of 2000 books, hard cover in 8.5 X11 with 90 pages, the price per book is $8.00. That makes a printing cost for a 90-page book of $16,000. You pay that to get the books, with 1/3 up front. Figure $45 to $50 retail, with your average sale price being $20, with maybe $25 average if you get a fair number of direct sales to gamers. Over a period of a year or two, you gross $40,000 to $50,000, not counting cost of artwork and marketing. You do have to store those unsold books somewhere as well. They do take a fair amount of room.

Robject is talking on the order of 3 times than length. If he is serious about selling this, and not taking a bath, he needs to chop it down so retail is in the range of $50 or so to the consumer. Before he goes any further, he needs to start thinking of printing costs, and get some estimates.

 

[mike wightman]

Sell it as pdf and print on demand.

 

[WistfulD]

Agreed. Small = affordable = it will actually occur, provided it is written.

 

[KDLadage]

In the modern age, POD is the way to do this sort of thing. The quality and process has risen to a point that it is not only affordable for the content provider, but for the consumer and the net result is quite well made. I have a lot of RPG books that were made this way. I cannot see many reasons to avoid this method of publishing. Especially for a niche market item.

 

[Timerover51]

In the modern age, POD is the way to do this sort of thing. The quality and process has risen to a point that it is not only affordable for the content provider, but for the consumer and the net result is quite well made. I have a lot of RPG books that were made this way. I cannot see many reasons to avoid this method of publishing. Especially for a niche market item.

The POD books that I have gotten have not been worth the money spent. You must have had better luck.

 

[KDLadage]

That is possible. I have (at last count) about 30-40 such books, all of excellent quality (both the writing and the construction).

 

[robject]

I'm sure Marc will print his Player's Guide. And there IS a tension between content and cost, always.

So what would a trimmed-to-the-bone version look like?

I seriously doubt it would drop any careers... But I have been wrong before; I'll be wrong again. Similarly tasks and combat. SO let's see what other surgeries we can perform.

About 180 pages.

Intro ........................   5 pp

If you think 5 pages is too long, consider what
might go into the front matter.  You might end
up with something closer to 10 pages.  For now
I'll be radical and go with a short intro.

Character Generation .........  40 pp  (after updated in the Core Rules)

The chargen section
tells us about the human characteristics, what each
means and how to use them, how to generate characters,
checklists, and how to specialize and gain experience.

Character Examples TBD .......  10 pp
Skills pp142-175 .............  35 pp  (abbreviated from the Core Rules)
EQUIPMENT ....................  10 pp  (some Core Rules + new content)

Two pages each of: weapons, armor, gear, vehicles, small craft, starships.

Tasks & Examples..............  15 pp  (abbreviated from the Core Rules)
Personal Combat ..............  25 pp  (after updated in the Core Rules)
Combat Examples TBD ..........  10 pp
TRAVELLING ...................  25 pp  (after updated in the Core Rules)

Two pages each of: benchmarks, ranges, UWP, interactions, starports,
vehicle operations, ship operations, tech levels, environmental effects.
Five pages for Trade.

Final Word ...................   2 pp
INDEX ........................   3 pp

 

[Timerover51]

If Marc does do a Players Guide, he needs to have an outside editor go over it before publication. He cannot do the editing himself, otherwise the errata elephant takes over the room.

 

[atpollard]

First, a large THANK YOU to all of the people who invested their time and expertise in this topic, especially robject's 180 page outline and timerover51's real world data on small press economics.

Just tossing in my free advice (worth every penny ) ...

If the goal is to create a tool for introdicing T5 to new RPGers (or at least new to Traveller RPGers), then you really need a loss leader.
Something available at as low a cost as possible to make entry as easy as possible.
Then look to the splat books to generate the profits.

I would respectfully propose, for general consideration, a three tiered approach.

• At the lowest entry level would be a free SRD/PDF of just the core rules without the examples or artwork or index.
  Possibly with an abridged versions of chargen that saved things like aliens and robots for paying customers.
  This is not such a radical give away since most of the basic Traveller data already exists in one or more other SRD documents.
  What this provides is the opportunity for a new Referee to buy the book and tell the first time players to download the free PDF as a handy reference during play.
  
• At the middle tier would be the full blown PDF version of the book for, I suggest something close to the $15 price range.
  This has the full 180 pages and artwork.
  
• At the upper price tier is the 180 page printed book.
  OK, I am going to be honest ... I am frugal ... parsimonious ... stingy ... aw heck, downright miserly!
  A $50 price point for 'come on, give it a try' is a definite "No. Pass. Move on."
  Using timerover51's $8 print price and $20 average profit ... that sets the basic target price at $12 plus cost.
  Assuming that a 90 page book costs $8 each to print and a 180 page book would cost $16 each to print, I would set the target price at $28 POD.
  Since that is still almost $60 at the brick and mortar local hobby store, I would still find that much too high to achieve the goal of drawing in new blood to just 'give it a try'.

I would suggest consideration of a kick-start funding to cover the original production costs, including artwork and editing, and attempting to sell the 'Welcome to Traveller' Player book at closer to cost.
Just for WAG figures, let's go with $16 print cost and $32 retail price with no profit from the brick and mortar sales.

The ideal goal of this (imho) would be to generate market penetration rather than profits.
Once the market exists, then the optional books can generate profits.

YMMV
[... and I welcome anyone more knowledgeable tearing this apart with better figures or different opinions.]

 

[WistfulD]

If the goal is to create a tool for introdicing T5 to new RPGers (or at least new to Traveller RPGers), then you really need a loss leader.
Something available at as low a cost as possible to make entry as easy as possible.
Then look to the splat books to generate the profits.

I do not want to be pessimistic, but some realism needs to be injected. The player's guide cannot be a loss leader. It has to be an economic coal mine canary. It will determine whether there is an interest in the market for any T5 products past the first. Therefor, it won't be clear whether there's something for a loss leader to lead into.

 

[KDLadage]

Loss leaders may be a great idea when you are WotC or Microsoft. When you are a small press operation... no...

The book should not be a loss leader. Break even is the worst it should ever be, and that would be a choice that would be difficult to truly defend.

 

[atpollard]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that a 'Loss Leader' was an item sold below 'fair market value' to entice other purchases at 'normal price'.
I didn't think that an item needed to be sold below cost to be a loss leader.

I apologize if I was misusing the terminology.
I am not advocating selling at a loss, I am advocating selling the minimal core rules at a minimal profit to boost sales and build the market.

I am dubious about a $60 180-page introductory book to a $75 656-page main rule book as a way to attract new players.

 

[mike wightman]

The POD books that I have gotten have not been worth the money spent. You must have had better luck.

I have bought three copies of The Traveller Book via POD and each one is excellent quality.

 

[KDLadage]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that a 'Loss Leader' was an item sold below 'fair market value' to entice other purchases at 'normal price'.
I didn't think that an item needed to be sold below cost to be a loss leader.

I apologize if I was misusing the terminology.

My understanding of the term "loss leader" is an item sold at a loss to entice the purchase of other items where a profit can be gained (e.g., the razor blade model). I could be wrong.

{google fu} From Wikipedia: A loss leader (also leader) is a pricing strategy where a product is sold at a price below its market cost to stimulate other sales of more profitable goods or services. With this sales promotion—marketing strategy, a "leader" is used as a related term and can mean any popular article, i.e., one sold at a normal price.

The examples in that article illustrate items sold at a loss to entice the buyer to get other items which have high profit margins.

 

[Timerover51]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that a 'Loss Leader' was an item sold below 'fair market value' to entice other purchases at 'normal price'.
I didn't think that an item needed to be sold below cost to be a loss leader.

I apologize if I was misusing the terminology.
I am not advocating selling at a loss, I am advocating selling the minimal core rules at a minimal profit to boost sales and build the market.

I am dubious about a $60 180-page introductory book to a $75 656-page main rule book as a way to attract new players.

Loss Leader means that you are not even breaking even on the product. Like H&R Block used to do the US 1040EZ for free, but charge more for the state return to recover the cost of the preparer commission. That was determined to be unfordable in the long run. The 1040EZ now cost $90 for preparation, which more accurately reflects the cost of preparing the return and some profit.

In my view, the target price for a stripped-down player's guide has to be no more than $30 at most. You are not going to sell a $50 Player Guide to new players.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Agreed!

Loss Leader means that you are not even breaking even on the product. Like H&R Block used to do the US 1040EZ for free, but charge more for the state return to recover the cost of the preparer commission. That was determined to be unfordable in the long run. The 1040EZ now cost $90 for preparation, which more accurately reflects the cost of preparing the return and some profit.

In my view, the target price for a stripped-down player's guide has to be no more than $30 at most. You are not going to sell a $50 Player Guide to new players.

I totally agree with your price point!

Hell, US$ 20-25 is better since at that range it is a mad money purchase, if you don't like it ah well no real loss. Sorta like a mobile device game a couple of bucks shot but nothing I would spend more time screaming for a refund over.

 

[cym0k]

I'm sure Marc will print his Player's Guide. And there IS a tension between content and cost, always.

So what would a trimmed-to-the-bone version look like?

I seriously doubt it would drop any careers... But I have been wrong before; I'll be wrong again. Similarly tasks and combat. SO let's see what other surgeries we can perform.

About 180 pages.

Intro ........................   5 pp

If you think 5 pages is too long, consider what
might go into the front matter.  You might end
up with something closer to 10 pages.  For now
I'll be radical and go with a short intro.

Character Generation .........  40 pp  (after updated in the Core Rules)

The chargen section
tells us about the human characteristics, what each
means and how to use them, how to generate characters,
checklists, and how to specialize and gain experience.

Character Examples TBD .......  10 pp
Skills pp142-175 .............  35 pp  (abbreviated from the Core Rules)
EQUIPMENT ....................  10 pp  (some Core Rules + new content)

Two pages each of: weapons, armor, gear, vehicles, small craft, starships.

Tasks & Examples..............  15 pp  (abbreviated from the Core Rules)
Personal Combat ..............  25 pp  (after updated in the Core Rules)
Combat Examples TBD ..........  10 pp
TRAVELLING ...................  25 pp  (after updated in the Core Rules)

Two pages each of: benchmarks, ranges, UWP, interactions, starports,
vehicle operations, ship operations, tech levels, environmental effects.
Five pages for Trade.

Final Word ...................   2 pp
INDEX ........................   3 pp

Are all examples of the "core mechanic" going to be covered in the tasks/combat sections, or will that be nailed down in the intro and illustrated in the tasks/combat sections? ("you roll a bunch of d6 versus a target number, see page F00 for extra details. Now Flux...")

And could character generation and examples be rolled together? My brain says "less paging through the book/PDF". Just thinking of my own preferences, rather than anything else. :rofl: You'd have a page or two introducing the careers, the "this is how to roll a character" bit, then each career sections is headed by an example of how the career specific data could be applied. Dovetail it together or something like that. Doubtful it would cut the page count down, but I imagine each example to have a half page, or a page with some images for flavour.

I know gear heads love this stuff, but would a page for each equipment section suffice rather than 2? Additional hardware could (and I am sure will) be supplied via Imperial Lines as well as other T5 material. Hell, you could whittle it down to bare essential armours/protection and weapons that work against them (or visa versa). One of each! "This against Armor, this against EM Cage, this against sealed....."

 

[aramis]

I totally agree with your price point!

Hell, US$ 20-25 is better since at that range it is a mad money purchase, if you don't like it ah well no real loss. Sorta like a mobile device game a couple of bucks shot but nothing I would spend more time screaming for a refund over.

Look at the starters for FFG's Star Wars... List is $30 each. No CGen, even. No PDF due to LFL license requirements.

Dragon Age Set 1: $29.95 print, $17.50 PDF

Firefly: A collection of 4 adventures plus the show characters & fast play rules: $35 dead tree. No CGen. Note that one can be bought in PDF with the show characters for a total of $10 and get the fast play rules as well.

D&D Basic Rules: Free in PDF
D&D Starter Set: Adventure and Basic Player's Rules $16.99, boxed. No PDF.

That's the competition...

 

[robject]

And could character generation and examples be rolled together?

That's one of the things I was thinking. Below the fold would be space for examples. Call it a large sidebar?

I know gear heads love this stuff, but would a page for each equipment section suffice rather than 2?

It's doable. It just depends on how big a shopping list players want, and how much Marc wants to split up the Core Rules.

 

[robject]

As far as loss-leading and marketing goes. Since the content is in small InDesign files, it's not unreasonable to make small PDFs available through DriveThruPDF.

This can satisfy the newbies, who want Starter Traveller5; grognards, who don't need the Skills chapter; and the Shopaholics who want the Big Book Of Things To Buy. The Core Rules already satisfies the completists and collectors.

The Scout career could be the freebie. Individual career packs could be cheap and content-tailored.