"Old" Solomani Ships?

[AlHazred]

So, for various reasons, my players are going to be interested in Admiral Denisov's (of Sword Worlds fame) "last resting place." Mongoose's Skandersvik provides a good way to imply his getaway in one of his vessels. Given that Denisov's Last Stand took place shortly after the Second Frontier War in 621.

What sort of ship would he have escaped in? It would probably (IMO) not be a capital ship, as his rebellion was against the desires of High Command who were trying to negotiate a surrender to the Imperium at the time; the module has his holdout force consisting of 11 ships, 9 of which were destroyed by the Imperial Navy at Mertactor. My thinking is, if he had any choice of ship at all (and he might not have had the ability to choose, depending on the circumstances of the final battle), it would have been the fastest ship he could manage to lay hands on. His purpose was to leave to drum up additional support for further resistance by the Sword Worlds against the Imperium.

What was the Tech Level of the Sword Worlds in the early 600s? What starships could they build? I'm not a Fleet guy, so this is the kind of question I feel the need to pose to the community.

 

[TamsinP]

For the TL, maybe 1 or 2 below that in 1105/1107. As only Gram and Sacnoth are capable of building starships, and both are TL C in 1105/1107, regressing to 600 would suggest TL A or B, so J2-capable at best. However, it's possible that TLs in the Sword Worlds haven't actually advanced over the five centuries, so their best ships are TL C and J3-capable.

I will admit that I was a bit confused at first by the title - the Sword Worlds in the 600s would not be using old Solomani ships, which would be 800 to 1000 years old by the Second Frontier War; I'm assuming the title was an error.

 

[Spinward Flow]

What was the Tech Level of the Sword Worlds in the early 600s? What starships could they build?

In 1105, the Sword Worlds are (mostly) TL=11 with only a couple at TL=12.

If you're talking LBB5.80 type/style custom design starships, go ahead and assume TL=11 max, because that then gives the Sword Worlds J2 capability (which they'd need).

If you're talking LBB2.81 type/style "legacy Solomani inspired" design starships, you can assume TL=10 ... which in turn means letter drives A-H ... and ironically turns everything very much into a "small ship universe" type of space. For example, H/H/H drives yield a performance of code: 2/2/2 in an 800 ton hull. Perfectly fine for "longship" style raiding, but hopelessly inadequate for military operations (especially if you need to account for EPs, ala LBB5.80).

the Sword Worlds in the 600s would not be using old Solomani ships

Perhaps a better way of saying it would be that Sword Worlds starship designs hew closely to their roots as diaspora colonists from the Solomani homeworld, so their ships tend to follow Solomani style design principles (albeit with a local industrial base flavoring to them).

 

[TamsinP]

Perhaps a better way of saying it would be that Sword Worlds starship designs hew closely to their roots as diaspora colonists from the Solomani homeworld, so their ships tend to follow Solomani style design principles (albeit with a local industrial base flavoring to them).

That's a very fair point, although contact with the Darrians, Imperials and Zhodani over the past few centuries would probably have had some impact on their design aesthetics.


Adding to my original reply:

From what I recall lore-wise, Sword Worlds warships (as opposed to raiders, which are usually heavily armed merchants) tend to be designed either for an offensive or defensive, so an attack warship (the most likely type to have been in Denisov's fleet) would generally have the highest jump capability available and the best offensive weapons at the expense of having less armour and screens.

As you mention Skandersvik, I'm assuming you are using MgT2e. I don't have "The Sword Worlds", so don't know what ships are detailed in that book. A handful of smaller combatants are detailed in "Adventure Class Ships" and "Traders and Gunboats"; I've checked "The Fifth Frontier War" (fleet composition only) and "War Fleets of the Fifth Frontier War" (Imperial and Zhodani only). If you can find any 1105/1107 designs, a simple solution would be to regress them to TL A or B. The main changes will be to jump capability, maximum armour value and computer capacity; some weapon systems will also be ruled out.

 

[AlHazred]

For the TL, maybe 1 or 2 below that in 1105/1107. As only Gram and Sacnoth are capable of building starships, and both are TL C in 1105/1107, regressing to 600 would suggest TL A or B, so J2-capable at best. However, it's possible that TLs in the Sword Worlds haven't actually advanced over the five centuries, so their best ships are TL C and J3-capable.

I will admit that I was a bit confused at first by the title - the Sword Worlds in the 600s would not be using old Solomani ships, which would be 800 to 1000 years old by the Second Frontier War; I'm assuming the title was an error.

I'm assuming the Sword Worlders used their original Solomani ships as a template for their own shipbuilding industry. After all, they reintroduced jump drives to the Darrians after the Maghiz -- likely there was at least a little Darrian-Sword Worlder cross-pollination of technological development before political hurdles made that impossible. As such, IMTU, the Sword Worlder starship technology bears much more resemblance to Solomani/Old Earth Union design standards than Imperial standards.

It's unlikely that all starship design bureaus in the setting use exactly the same designs. Even in the same polity, Bilstein Yards probably has its own preferred procedures that aren't used in Yard 17.

 

[AlHazred]

As you mention Skandersvik, I'm assuming you are using MgT2e. I don't have "The Sword Worlds", so don't know what ships are detailed in that book. A handful of smaller combatants are detailed in "Adventure Class Ships" and "Traders and Gunboats"; I've checked "The Fifth Frontier War" (fleet composition only) and "War Fleets of the Fifth Frontier War" (Imperial and Zhodani only). If you can find any 1105/1107 designs, a simple solution would be to regress them to TL A or B. The main changes will be to jump capability, maximum armour value and computer capacity; some weapon systems will also be ruled out.

I use Traveller Hero updated to Hero System 6E, but I generally use builds from one of the earlier editions. I like LBB2.81 and LBB5.80 designs, but I also used MT material. I like to use a system that has real design methods, then I translate them into my system of choice.

The MGT2 ships seem to be less concerned with adherence to rigid design principles, so I haven't really used them. But the lore is excellent, so I'm using it extensively, with some inclusions from G:T Sword Worlds lore -- but not a lot, as it's set in 1120 and my campaign is in 1100.

 

[mike wightman]

GT Sword Worlds has this to say:

"Sword World ships more closely resemble ancient Terran Confederation ships than Imperial vessels, although they also show Aslan influence in their use of curves. Streamlined ships are elegant lifting bodies, like broad leaf-shaped spearheads; unstreamlined vessels are squat and blocky, with protected bridges and sensors on booms. Many craft still use total-conversion fusion rockets (p. T:S39), those that use reactionless thrusters are still laid out in the same manner.
Most craft, especially military ones, have fewer amenities than Imperial designs: in the Sword Worlds, it’s not just system defense boat crews that sleep 12 to a bunkroom!"

The history of the Sword Worlders from GT sources place their TL at least B when they settled in the Spinward Marches.

 

[Condottiere]

If it's the original ship of Theseus from their volkerwanderung, like the Darrians, it could represent the peak of Terran technology, at technological level twelve.

 

[Rupert]

CT Module 03, The Spinward Marches Campaign has both an official course of the 5th frontier war shown, and historical boundaries of the various SM states. It shows the condition at the end of the 2st FW (622 according to it, apparently later changed to 620) and the beginning of the 3nd (979). In that time at some point the SW splits and also Margesi becomes Imperial (it changes hands again in the 3FW, and than again in the 4th). At some point the Darrians grab a few worlds as well (you can see why the Sword Worlders thought the 3rd FW was a good idea). Until the split and loss of Margesi all the worlds are reachable by J-1. After that one of the SW polities needs J-2.

I would be inclined towards assuming that SW tech levels hit 11-12 and then remained static (due to infighting, too small an economy, or whatever other reason suits you), because they were clearly capable of holding their own and even advancing through to the 3rd FW in the late 900s. As the Imperium hit TL13 around 300 and TL14 around 700 (according to MegaTraveller's Referee's Companion) anything less than TL-12 is going to be hopeless.

 

[mike wightman]

The Sword Worlders that left the Terran sphere to go a viking did so in state of the art ships for the time. That makes them minimum TL12.