"Old" Solomani Ships?

[AlHazred]

So, for various reasons, my players are going to be interested in Admiral Denisov's (of Sword Worlds fame) "last resting place." Mongoose's Skandersvik provides a good way to imply his getaway in one of his vessels. Given that Denisov's Last Stand took place shortly after the Second Frontier War in 621.

What sort of ship would he have escaped in? It would probably (IMO) not be a capital ship, as his rebellion was against the desires of High Command who were trying to negotiate a surrender to the Imperium at the time; the module has his holdout force consisting of 11 ships, 9 of which were destroyed by the Imperial Navy at Mertactor. My thinking is, if he had any choice of ship at all (and he might not have had the ability to choose, depending on the circumstances of the final battle), it would have been the fastest ship he could manage to lay hands on. His purpose was to leave to drum up additional support for further resistance by the Sword Worlds against the Imperium.

What was the Tech Level of the Sword Worlds in the early 600s? What starships could they build? I'm not a Fleet guy, so this is the kind of question I feel the need to pose to the community.

 

[TamsinP]

For the TL, maybe 1 or 2 below that in 1105/1107. As only Gram and Sacnoth are capable of building starships, and both are TL C in 1105/1107, regressing to 600 would suggest TL A or B, so J2-capable at best. However, it's possible that TLs in the Sword Worlds haven't actually advanced over the five centuries, so their best ships are TL C and J3-capable.

I will admit that I was a bit confused at first by the title - the Sword Worlds in the 600s would not be using old Solomani ships, which would be 800 to 1000 years old by the Second Frontier War; I'm assuming the title was an error.

 

[Spinward Flow]

What was the Tech Level of the Sword Worlds in the early 600s? What starships could they build?

In 1105, the Sword Worlds are (mostly) TL=11 with only a couple at TL=12.

If you're talking LBB5.80 type/style custom design starships, go ahead and assume TL=11 max, because that then gives the Sword Worlds J2 capability (which they'd need).

If you're talking LBB2.81 type/style "legacy Solomani inspired" design starships, you can assume TL=10 ... which in turn means letter drives A-H ... and ironically turns everything very much into a "small ship universe" type of space. For example, H/H/H drives yield a performance of code: 2/2/2 in an 800 ton hull. Perfectly fine for "longship" style raiding, but hopelessly inadequate for military operations (especially if you need to account for EPs, ala LBB5.80).

the Sword Worlds in the 600s would not be using old Solomani ships

Perhaps a better way of saying it would be that Sword Worlds starship designs hew closely to their roots as diaspora colonists from the Solomani homeworld, so their ships tend to follow Solomani style design principles (albeit with a local industrial base flavoring to them).

 

[TamsinP]

Perhaps a better way of saying it would be that Sword Worlds starship designs hew closely to their roots as diaspora colonists from the Solomani homeworld, so their ships tend to follow Solomani style design principles (albeit with a local industrial base flavoring to them).

That's a very fair point, although contact with the Darrians, Imperials and Zhodani over the past few centuries would probably have had some impact on their design aesthetics.


Adding to my original reply:

From what I recall lore-wise, Sword Worlds warships (as opposed to raiders, which are usually heavily armed merchants) tend to be designed either for an offensive or defensive, so an attack warship (the most likely type to have been in Denisov's fleet) would generally have the highest jump capability available and the best offensive weapons at the expense of having less armour and screens.

As you mention Skandersvik, I'm assuming you are using MgT2e. I don't have "The Sword Worlds", so don't know what ships are detailed in that book. A handful of smaller combatants are detailed in "Adventure Class Ships" and "Traders and Gunboats"; I've checked "The Fifth Frontier War" (fleet composition only) and "War Fleets of the Fifth Frontier War" (Imperial and Zhodani only). If you can find any 1105/1107 designs, a simple solution would be to regress them to TL A or B. The main changes will be to jump capability, maximum armour value and computer capacity; some weapon systems will also be ruled out.

 

[AlHazred]

For the TL, maybe 1 or 2 below that in 1105/1107. As only Gram and Sacnoth are capable of building starships, and both are TL C in 1105/1107, regressing to 600 would suggest TL A or B, so J2-capable at best. However, it's possible that TLs in the Sword Worlds haven't actually advanced over the five centuries, so their best ships are TL C and J3-capable.

I will admit that I was a bit confused at first by the title - the Sword Worlds in the 600s would not be using old Solomani ships, which would be 800 to 1000 years old by the Second Frontier War; I'm assuming the title was an error.

I'm assuming the Sword Worlders used their original Solomani ships as a template for their own shipbuilding industry. After all, they reintroduced jump drives to the Darrians after the Maghiz -- likely there was at least a little Darrian-Sword Worlder cross-pollination of technological development before political hurdles made that impossible. As such, IMTU, the Sword Worlder starship technology bears much more resemblance to Solomani/Old Earth Union design standards than Imperial standards.

It's unlikely that all starship design bureaus in the setting use exactly the same designs. Even in the same polity, Bilstein Yards probably has its own preferred procedures that aren't used in Yard 17.

 

[AlHazred]

As you mention Skandersvik, I'm assuming you are using MgT2e. I don't have "The Sword Worlds", so don't know what ships are detailed in that book. A handful of smaller combatants are detailed in "Adventure Class Ships" and "Traders and Gunboats"; I've checked "The Fifth Frontier War" (fleet composition only) and "War Fleets of the Fifth Frontier War" (Imperial and Zhodani only). If you can find any 1105/1107 designs, a simple solution would be to regress them to TL A or B. The main changes will be to jump capability, maximum armour value and computer capacity; some weapon systems will also be ruled out.

I use Traveller Hero updated to Hero System 6E, but I generally use builds from one of the earlier editions. I like LBB2.81 and LBB5.80 designs, but I also used MT material. I like to use a system that has real design methods, then I translate them into my system of choice.

The MGT2 ships seem to be less concerned with adherence to rigid design principles, so I haven't really used them. But the lore is excellent, so I'm using it extensively, with some inclusions from G:T Sword Worlds lore -- but not a lot, as it's set in 1120 and my campaign is in 1100.

 

[mike wightman]

GT Sword Worlds has this to say:

"Sword World ships more closely resemble ancient Terran Confederation ships than Imperial vessels, although they also show Aslan influence in their use of curves. Streamlined ships are elegant lifting bodies, like broad leaf-shaped spearheads; unstreamlined vessels are squat and blocky, with protected bridges and sensors on booms. Many craft still use total-conversion fusion rockets (p. T:S39), those that use reactionless thrusters are still laid out in the same manner.
Most craft, especially military ones, have fewer amenities than Imperial designs: in the Sword Worlds, it’s not just system defense boat crews that sleep 12 to a bunkroom!"

The history of the Sword Worlders from GT sources place their TL at least B when they settled in the Spinward Marches.

 

[Condottiere]

If it's the original ship of Theseus from their volkerwanderung, like the Darrians, it could represent the peak of Terran technology, at technological level twelve.

 

[Rupert]

CT Module 03, The Spinward Marches Campaign has both an official course of the 5th frontier war shown, and historical boundaries of the various SM states. It shows the condition at the end of the 2st FW (622 according to it, apparently later changed to 620) and the beginning of the 3nd (979). In that time at some point the SW splits and also Margesi becomes Imperial (it changes hands again in the 3FW, and than again in the 4th). At some point the Darrians grab a few worlds as well (you can see why the Sword Worlders thought the 3rd FW was a good idea). Until the split and loss of Margesi all the worlds are reachable by J-1. After that one of the SW polities needs J-2.

I would be inclined towards assuming that SW tech levels hit 11-12 and then remained static (due to infighting, too small an economy, or whatever other reason suits you), because they were clearly capable of holding their own and even advancing through to the 3rd FW in the late 900s. As the Imperium hit TL13 around 300 and TL14 around 700 (according to MegaTraveller's Referee's Companion) anything less than TL-12 is going to be hopeless.

 

[mike wightman]

The Sword Worlders that left the Terran sphere to go a viking did so in state of the art ships for the time. That makes them minimum TL12.

 

[Swiftbrook]

What sort of ship would he have escaped in? It would probably (IMO) not be a capital ship,

I'm going to suggest that it was a capital ship. Situation: He's in a battle, he's losing ships, does he have time to transfer from his command ship to another starship and then jump? Would he transfer to a ships boat then transfer again to a jump capable ship? In the middle of a battle? That seems very risky.

I would think that he saw the battle was not going his way. He ordered, (or 1 or 2 captains volunteered) to have some ships cover his withdrawal. One of the ships escaped the battle with Admiral Denisov's ship.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Timerover51]

Looking through the Mongoose Traveller book on the Sword Worlds, the ships listed as examples are all Jump Level 2. Here are some examples from the Ship Design standpoint.

Most Sword Worlder ships are streamlined and borrow a great deal of aesthetics from Imperial and Aslan sources, retaining their own baseline pragmatism in their overall design. Thickened bulkheads, dual-door separation from room-to-room and cramped personal quarters are the norm.

That the Sword Worlders learned from Darrian vessels, salvaged after conflicts with their neighbours, that the need for hand-driven mechanical counterparts is vital. All doors have a manual override, all comm-units have a small friction-based hand generator to alternately power them and even atmospheric scrubbers have toxin storage bladders that can be pumped out if the need arises. Although added as safety measures, Sword World ship captains are not above routing power away from these sorts of systems on purpose in order to add more power elsewhere. After all, their crewmen can handle the extra work or they would not be worthwhile Swordies!

The one pattern that can be found across all Sword Worlder ships is the plain and practical nature of their design. If it does not add to the efficiency of the ship or its crew, a Sword World shipbuilder will not likely spend the resources or the effort installing it.

All quotes are taken from the 2011 Edition of Sword Worlds by Mongoose Publishing.

 

[AlHazred]

That the Sword Worlders learned from Darrian vessels, salvaged after conflicts with their neighbours, that the need for hand-driven mechanical counterparts is vital. All doors have a manual override, all comm-units have a small friction-based hand generator to alternately power them and even atmospheric scrubbers have toxin storage bladders that can be pumped out if the need arises. Although added as safety measures, Sword World ship captains are not above routing power away from these sorts of systems on purpose in order to add more power elsewhere.

So, how does this modify the baseline LBB2.81 / LBB5.80 numbers for constructing the vessel? Mongoose is a little fast and loose with the starship construction rules. I want to know how this changes the math on harder ship-design rules. @Spinward Flow , any thoughts?

Also, worth noting that I already assume something like this for Scout ships, since they have an Exploration focus on their designs. But the Scouts borrow extremely mature technologies from three Imperiums, so I've been assuming that, so long as it's "IISS Standard" TL10 or TL12 starship components, they take up the same room as regular ones. Maybe I shouldn't be?

 

[TamsinP]

So, how does this modify the baseline LBB2.81 / LBB5.80 numbers for constructing the vessel? Mongoose is a little fast and loose with the starship construction rules. I want to know how this changes the math on harder ship-design rules.

As far as I can see, it doesn't change anything for LBB2/LBB5 designs - it's pure fluff, along the lines of the crappy air-purifiers on the Type S. As far as I'm aware, no edition of Traveller has a ship design system which bores down to the level of what type of doors are used fro staterooms, or how the "intercom" works.

 

[kilemall]

As far as I can see, it doesn't change anything for LBB2/LBB5 designs - it's pure fluff, along the lines of the crappy air-purifiers on the Type S. As far as I'm aware, no edition of Traveller has a ship design system which bores down to the level of what type of doors are used fro staterooms, or how the "intercom" works.

Nor do I really want one. I want basic ideas so I know how easy they are to lock or break into or shenanigans with intercoms, but also open enough to have both incredibly safe/luxurious doors/comms or starport E cheap fixes and how close to the edge they can be before being ineligible for standard passage fares.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So, how does this modify the baseline LBB2.81 / LBB5.80 numbers for constructing the vessel?
{...}
I want to know how this changes the math on harder ship-design rules. @Spinward Flow , any thoughts?

Put simply ... it doesn't.

It changes the Fluff Text™ and might make a difference to the deck plan layouts due to a shift in the balance of allocation for volumes, but the naval architect office spreadsheets will remain unchanged.

Let me give you a concrete example to grab onto as an easy point of reference.



Most posters and lurkers here will be familiar with the deck plan of the Type-S Scout/Courier.

Now, for simplicity, I'm going to crop out the area of the 4 staterooms.
Furthermore, I'm going to increase the scaling by 150% to get closer to my more usual 60 pixels per 1 deck square resolution sizing.

So if I were to fill these 2x3 deck squares staterooms in with furnishings on an Imperial designed and constructed starship, I might wind up with something akin to this:

So far, so ordinary ... right?
But what happens if I put "extra life support equipment" allocation INTO the floor space of the staterooms?

Arguably, Stateroom 5 is going to "feel smaller" than Stateroom 7 will for anyone who is bunking/billeted there.

From a "practical" standpoint (relevant to gamers), as far as the naval architect office spreadsheet is concerned, NOTHING HAS CHANGED.
Both "styles" of stateroom require an allocation of 4 tons, regardless of polity doing the construction.

However, the Sword Worlds "style" of construction (5) would obviously be different from the Imperial "style" of construction (7) as seen by the differences in the deck plans (but not in the design spreadsheet that allocates tonnages).

Other things that could make a difference would be that on Sword Worlds starships, ALL compartments bounded by bulkheads use airlocks to access the adjacent compartment. So if you look back up at the Type-S Scout/Courier deck plan shows the number 11 in a transverse corridor ... on a Sword Worlds built starship with the same naval architect spreadsheet of design capabilities, there would be bulkheads and hatches to port and starboard of the vertical access point, in order to create a bounded airlock space that could subdivide the foreward/aft and the port/starboard compartments, in addition to acting as an airlock for dorsal access into the "attic" area on the deck above.

Again, it doesn't change the "tonnage allocations" on the design spreadsheets in the naval architect's office ... but rather it's a design aesthetic that is relevant to the design of interior layouts of deck plans, and how compartments are structured, organized and traversed by crew and passengers. Done properly, it doesn't change the amount of deck squares (floor area) of compartments, but because those compartments are "filled with more stuff" on a Sword Worlds designed starship, the interior layout is "less open" (and therefore more "cramped" in terms of crew accessible volume) so there's less "sprawl" available in the interior spaces.

4 ton staterooms remain 4 ton staterooms, regardless of polity doing the construction.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[PVernon]

(Dumb) Note, The bathroom symbol used is an "all in one" like what is common in an RV (Caravan), they are normally about 35" to 38" wide not 60" that is shown. That would make more space for the life support stuff and make the room roomier as well.

 

[kilemall]

(Dumb) Note, The bathroom symbol used is an "all in one" like what is common in an RV (Caravan), they are normally about 35" to 38" wide not 60" that is shown. That would make more space for the life support stuff and make the room roomier as well.

For Cr10000 I better damn well get a space tub.

 

[AlHazred]

In rereading Beltstrike, I came across this reference:

The hopeless stand of Denisov's Fleet at the Battle of Narsil in 627 ended in a devastating Imperial victory, but Denisov himself escaped with a handful of his best, newest ships, relatively untouched by the battle. Fleeing the Impetials, Denisov's squadron took refuge in the Bowman system. using the Sword Worlder base in the teading Trojans as a center of operations. The cornmerce raiding staged by Denisov in the years that followed was little more than highly organized piracy, but it forms a romantic and powerful part of Sword World military tradition to this day. For nearly seven years Denisov raided almost at will, outwitting (and on three occasions outfighting) Fleet Vice-Admiral Koenig's Imperial forces at every turn. At last, in 628, Koenig assembled overwhelming forces and defeated Denisov at Mertactor. Following this battle, Koenig finally traced Denisov to his base at Bowman. Following the Battle of Jarlsson's Doom and the bombardment of the base, a peace conference resulted in the surrender of Denisov's successor, Captain Riesleng. Denisov, the "Spacehand's Hero", the "Landless Admiral" who broke the class barrier and rose to high command, was never captured; his shuttle was lost in the belt fringe during the last stages of combat in the system.

So, almost certainly the escape ship is a J-3 vessel. The bit about "Denisov's missing shuttle" I will reframe as Imperial propaganda from Vice-Admiral Koenig's office, as they wanted to give Koenig credit for total victory, instead of another case where the "bad guy" got away via jump; instead, I assume an Adventure-class ship, probably on the lower end, 300 to 800 tons.

 

[Spinward Flow]

So, almost certainly the escape ship is a J-3 vessel.

Doubtful.

I would consider it more likely to be a J2 starship.

9 parsecs -- 5 jumps
* Narsil (Spinward Marches 0927)
Jump 2 to
* Spume (Spinward Marches 0727)
Jump 2 to
* Ator (Spinward Marches 0729)
Jump 2 to
* Debarre (Spinward Marches 0830)
Jump 2 to
* 567-908 (Spinward Marches 1031)
Jump 1 to
* Bowman (Spinward Marches 1132)

Evading Darrian military forces at Spume/Darrian probably wouldn't have been "too much trouble" ... but STAYING at Spume definitely would have been, so for a J2 escape/retreat, you'd be looking at a skim+jump to leave Darrian space as rapidly as possible.

An alternative J2 route from Narsil to Bowman would be through a Calibration Point (of some flavor) between Narsil and Enos.
Think SM0929, SM1028 or SM1128 as being the (empty) hex with the J2 Calibration Point used to route traffic through to Enos.

Once you can J2+2 from Narsil to Enos, it's just another J2 in order to reach Bowman.

Note that jumping through "an empty hex" on the way to Enos (and then Bowman) would be a VERY EFFECTIVE way to shake off a pursuit by Imperial forces.

Additionally, it could be that the Sword World military starships were built to a J2+2 standard, in order to have an unrefueled "advance+retreat" option, without needing to worry about fuel resupply at the destination (which aren't always easy to obtain if there's determined opposition). With a 40% jump fuel fraction, a J2 starship is easily capable of double jumping before needing to be refueled.

I personally would consider the J2+2 "option" to be the most likely one, since such a fuel fraction is the best for "raiding" without being dependent on resupply after every jump.