So in this hypothetical star system being discussed there are NO friendly/neutral ships/objects floating/flying around? No belters moving around in a kuiper belt? No incoming convoys(military or civilian)? Nothing at all, just empty space?
Magical Traveller starship heat sinks discovered?
- Thread starter navanod
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So in this hypothetical star system being discussed there are NO friendly/neutral ships/objects floating/flying around? No belters moving around in a kuiper belt? No incoming convoys(military or civilian)? Nothing at all, just empty space?
In a system with controls, they will already be ID'd with transponders. Otherwise, it isn't controlled. "Objects floating around" are not near ship temps either and will have been previously plotted and exact locations already known.
Someone that jumps in will be requested to ID themselves, destination, etc. Pretty simple.
Again, "Stealth" does NOT Mean Invisible. The only people in this thread who are claiming that Stealth=Invisible/Non-Detected are those that are trying to say it isn't possible...
Big difference in Detection & Identifying a Threat. In fact it IS the difference between being a Hero or facing a military court martial...
Sure, eventually. Speed of light Comms and all that ya know. Is that potential threat ship an enemy? or a friendly civilian with poor maintenance and a broken comm system? At what point to you go scramble? At what point to you open fire. Like I said, ROE is important. Also, why I'm asking at what point can your sensor systems distinguish targets...
Again, "Stealth" does NOT Mean Invisible. The only people in this thread who are claiming that Stealth=Invisible/Non-Detected are those that are trying to say it isn't possible...
And those who claim that, due to the heat and movement issues, you can't disguise a spaceship as anything other than a spaceship. Stealth by pretending to be an innocuous object is impossible if you can't disguise yourself as an innocuous object.
Hans
"Innocuous" is a murky term in the eyes/brain of the most junior sensor watch officer in the fleet...
First thing I'd do as a Zhodani Intelligence operative prepping for an attack and performing system defense recon would be to sabotage the comm system of a tramp freighter going to the target system so that the Comms break down upon exiting Jump. Do that a couple of times and see what happens...
Hi,
I've been reluctant to comment on these type threads, due in part to the strong emotions they seem to conjure, but one thing I've noticed so far is that there doesn't seem to be much discussion of jamming or spoofing (as far as I can see).
It is my understanding in modern/semi-modern naval and air warfare overpowering an enemies sensors, preventing them from clearly ID'ing anything is an effective means of causing confusion, and preventing the enemy from detecting objects, and/or determining friend from foe, etc.
As such, the use of jamming drones, decoy vessels emitting false signals and/or signatures and other such activities would all seem likely potential Traveller era tactics.
I've been reluctant to comment on these type threads, due in part to the strong emotions they seem to conjure, but one thing I've noticed so far is that there doesn't seem to be much discussion of jamming or spoofing (as far as I can see).
It is my understanding in modern/semi-modern naval and air warfare overpowering an enemies sensors, preventing them from clearly ID'ing anything is an effective means of causing confusion, and preventing the enemy from detecting objects, and/or determining friend from foe, etc.
As such, the use of jamming drones, decoy vessels emitting false signals and/or signatures and other such activities would all seem likely potential Traveller era tactics.
There was an attempt at it a few pages back but it wasn't really answered...
Every time it gets brought up, it gets ignored as if this magical sensor net can properly ID everything that is detected AND can make perfect decisions on the data collected.
"Innocuous" is a murky term in the eyes/brain of the most junior sensor watch officer in the fleet...
When was the last time you heard of an aircraft sneaking into a major airport without the air traffic controllers bothering to identify it?
First thing I'd do as a Zhodani Intelligence operative prepping for an attack and performing system defense recon would be to sabotage the comm system of a tramp freighter going to the target system so that the Comms break down upon exiting Jump. Do that a couple of times and see what happens...
So now we've switched from stealth to psycological warfare?
Hans
That's because jamming and spoofing is pretty much the exact opposite of stealth. Stealth is supposed to make you not noticed. Popping off jammers is pretty much guaranteed to get you noticed.
Hans
Well, this event for one...
http://www.airspacemag.com/history-of-flight/rust.html
Read publicly available tactics of the use of Stealth Aircraft by the USAF and you'll find out that part of Stealth IS Fooling the enemy sensor operators by making any detected aircraft appear to be something else. So, yea...
FYI, modern Stealth Fighters/Bombers sometimes carry RADAR Jammers. It all depends on the mission profile.
Sure. Unless you are jumping in days worth of insystem travel away, "eventually" is REALLY quickly.
A crew is stupid enough to jump out of a system with a broken radio? A starships comms is as likely to break while in jump as I am to get hit by lightening, twice) is going to get a LOT of attention.
A single ship acting normally, taking standard routes is likely to not eyeballed until very close. Depending on how paranoid the defenders. I've seen very detailed radar images of small asteroids (looks like a good b&w photo) taken from 600,000 miles with present day tech. Add 6 or 7 TL's and we're easily talking millions of miles away getting visual ID of ship type.
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There we go, actual(well at least reported data) sensor data in answer to my previous question.
Thanks for that info.
Totally agree. The point of doing it is to gauge the defense's reaction and to see what political/civilian response would be. It depends on how much control, if any, that a civilian government has over the military. And if the crew dies, so what? part of the exercise/mission is gauge the defender's response, the other part is to attempt to force government to interfere with a military ROE. It's been know to happen in RL after all.
That would be an example of stealth, not of traffic control spotting a plane and letting it land without identifying it.
The thing about analogies is that they often apply only in one way. Just because I use a green baloon as an example of green objects doesn't mean I'm arguing that all green objects float.
Read publicly available tactics of the use of Stealth Aircraft by the USAF and you'll find out that part of Stealth IS Fooling the enemy sensor operators by making any detected aircraft appear to be something else. So, yea...
I refer you to a previous post where I pointed out that you can't make a spaceship appear to be anything other than a spaceship.
Beyond that, if the intruder bribed the junior sensor operator to ignore his signal, would that be stealth too, as you define it? What if the enemy snuck a virus into the computer programmed to ignore enemy vessels? Would that be stealth too?
Because if it is, you're both right and wrong. Right by your definition of stealth, wrong by my definition.
Hans
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If anyone wants a good example of what I'm talking about read this(and yea I know it's wikipedia, but it is a good place to start, look down at the bottom of the article at the links to sources sited);
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
The perfect example of a sensor system detecting something and the crew misidentifying it even though every system they had said it was a Civilian craft.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
The perfect example of a sensor system detecting something and the crew misidentifying it even though every system they had said it was a Civilian craft.
Totally agree. The point of doing it is to gauge the defense's reaction and to see what political/civilian response would be. It depends on how much control, if any, that a civilian government has over the military. And if the crew dies, so what? part of the exercise/mission is gauge the defender's response, the other part is to attempt to force government to interfere with a military ROE. It's been know to happen in RL after all.
Just don't do it over the Kamchatka Peninsula while piloting a spaceship numbered 007.
There are lots of types of spaceships. Is it friendly or enemy? THAT is the question.
No, that is a Recon Mission to determine the capability/tactics of the enemy. How you use that information to get past sensor identification is Stealth. My definition of military stealth is defeating/getting past a Detection/Identification System...
Just don't do it over the Kamchatka Peninsula while piloting a spaceship numbered 007.
EXACTLY! And look how world public opinion turned on the Soviets when that happened...
And it would be my guess that the US military learned something about the Soviet capabilities and ROE Process from that incident.
