Magical Traveller starship heat sinks discovered?
- Thread starter navanod
- Start date
No, it isn't. It's about us pointing out the fact that a starship will be emitting enough heat to be a lot more detectable than any natural object in space. Of course a starship can be far enough away from sensors to go unnoticed, but then it's not going to be close enough to do anything interesting.
Hans
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
And, getting close enough to do something interesting will cause other detection issues to arise.
Nope. It is about proven (over & over again in the real universe) physics. Either one understands the subject or, they don't...
No matter how many solid lead balls I design, none will float in a swimming pool. Hate to be the bearer of bad news...
Last edited:
The other side seems to have accepted the idea that stealth is impossible. Based on my real-world experience, I do not agree. I agree that the points they make prevent it from being as simple as "engage cloaking device. Everybody remember where we parked!". But then, I wouldn't want it to be that simple; my players would abuse it.
As for the science, remember that translating science from the laboratory to the real world user never works out as linearly as expected - e.g., where's my flying car and L5 habitat?
I'm not looking to hear anything. I simply said I didn't agree with the position the board seems to have agreed upon on the issue of stealth, and gave my reasons. When they tried to convince me that I was wrong, I felt it necessary to reply.
How so?
The arrogance of science. Your understanding is not based on how it's going to be implemented in the real world, or the fact that laboratory expectations don't happen outside the lab. You assume it can't happen, because it doesn't make sense in your gedankenexperimenten.
But I live in a real world where I use systems that can detect very small objects routinely, yet equally routinely, much larger objects don't show up. So when you say "IMPOSSIBLE", I say "just what I expect".
Not a valid comparison.
And just what is "interesting"? Again, there's more places to sneak than just straight in to the castle. Sometimes you just don't want to be seen from the castle while going somewhere else entirely.
And even when the guards are alert, camouflage has worked often enough to get in and out. Just because a physicist says his equipment gets around that doesn't mean it actually works as advertised.
Part of the issue is a lack of quantifiable data to even start arguing from. IMO, the 500 pound gorilla in the room is the heat from the fusion power plant.
If it functions like P-P fusion in the sun, then nothing can contain the heat, the power plant uses too much fuel for the energy produced, and there is not enough LH2 to act as a coolant for more than a few seconds. If the Power Plant does not function like the sun, then who knows how much heat is produced - it is all magic.
Without any quantifiable numbers, one side argues that the ship rivals the brightness of the sun - how can you hide that - and the other side argues that the ship is closer to a firefly on mars - how do you detect that?
... and both sides are equally correct, from their initial assumptions.
The issue that I have with the whole 'there is no hiding in space' is that sensor rules and detection ranges specifically claim otherwise ... and I don't want to rewrite the rules. So the question for me is "what assumptions make the existing detection/sensor rules work?" YMMV.
If it functions like P-P fusion in the sun, then nothing can contain the heat, the power plant uses too much fuel for the energy produced, and there is not enough LH2 to act as a coolant for more than a few seconds. If the Power Plant does not function like the sun, then who knows how much heat is produced - it is all magic.
Without any quantifiable numbers, one side argues that the ship rivals the brightness of the sun - how can you hide that - and the other side argues that the ship is closer to a firefly on mars - how do you detect that?
... and both sides are equally correct, from their initial assumptions.
The issue that I have with the whole 'there is no hiding in space' is that sensor rules and detection ranges specifically claim otherwise ... and I don't want to rewrite the rules. So the question for me is "what assumptions make the existing detection/sensor rules work?" YMMV.
I just go with the TL 12 MT passive sensor range of ~100,000 A.U. rather than the top of line model which has a detection range of 2 parsecs...
I just go with the TL 12 MT passive sensor range of ~100,000 A.U. rather than the top of line model which has a detection range of 2 parsecs...
OK, that was funny. :rofl:
... but right there is your problem, when rules conflict in different versions, [REAL] Traveller players always default to "The Traveller Book".
OK, that was funny. :rofl:
... but right there is your problem, when rules conflict in different versions, [REAL] Traveller players always default to "The Traveller Book".
Oh noes!
OK, that was funny. :rofl:
... but right there is your problem, when rules conflict in different versions, [REAL] Traveller players always default to "The Traveller Book".
WHich gives an absolute detection at 2 LS for military craft, and 1 LS for civil. No rolls, no sensor skills. If inside that range, you're detected and identified.
Most of the arguments really don't include the energy from the fusion plant's internal heat. Most of them are based upon the stated power plant wattages, because that's the physics floor - all energy generated must leave the ship either as work or as heat, and most of the work also generates heat.
That 250MW pp on your 100Td J1 M1 ship is, in point of physics, going to be at least a 250MW souce... in reality, a 250MW generator is usually around a 350MW or higher source due to inefficiencies causing the reaction.
We pick up much smaller sources (Voyager) at ranges of 20+AU. The basic applied physics says a starship, which is a million times the energy stated, should be a million times easier to detect.
Lol! Hey Darkwing, they've already went through this with me on this subject in another thread. Some things to think on;
The difference between Theory and Reality is that In Theory, there is no difference and in Reality there is...
When I was a electronics bench tech I'd see things that science and our textbooks said that would never happen. The my favorite one is "You will NEVER see a Resistor 'short' because it is impossible for it to happen."
Let's cover some misconceptions first.
Stealth Technology; Most people see "Stealth" and think "Invisible" Not even our most advanced Stealth Aircraft are Invisible to RADAR. As applied Stealth Aircraft greatly reduce the RADAR return from the Front Arc ONLY. The US Navy did tests years ago and found out that they can track our own Stealth planes with long range RADAR that reflects off of the ionosphere and therefore the RADAR signals can get a return off of them due to the signal hitting them from the top. Also, stealth aircraft fly NOE(Nape Of the Earth) for a reason because if they fly much higher there is still a good chance of being detected by RADAR. So, please keep in mind that "Stealth does NOT equal Invisibility." Stealth technology as applied to aircraft, and I expect it to apply to spacecraft in the future, means reducing or spoofing a signature to make it appear to be something else.
With any sensor, even computer monitored ones, you have to have the system balanced at what it returns and what it interprets. Too sensitive and you will have too many false alerts, not sensitive enough and you miss things.
Another thing that the 'Anti-stealth' side is ignoring is that any inhabited system is going to have ship traffic, unless it is completely interdicted. So what if you get a ship that Jumps in, are you going scramble your fleet and rush off and attack every time something arrives? You simply will not be able to do that in most systems in the OTU. Even if you detect several ships arriving together, are there not multiple commercial ship convoys in the OTU? And so what if you detect an IR Source, the real military value of a sensor is at what range can you determine if that source is a Battleship or a Super Large Freighter?
Also, like Darkwing has been saying, what skill/morale is your sensor watch crew and/or the crew that programs the computer as to what to watch for? What is the maintenance status of your sensors? IME the only tech system that are in perfect operating order are in the design labs in isolated/perfect conditions...
The difference between Theory and Reality is that In Theory, there is no difference and in Reality there is...
When I was a electronics bench tech I'd see things that science and our textbooks said that would never happen. The my favorite one is "You will NEVER see a Resistor 'short' because it is impossible for it to happen."
Let's cover some misconceptions first.
Stealth Technology; Most people see "Stealth" and think "Invisible" Not even our most advanced Stealth Aircraft are Invisible to RADAR. As applied Stealth Aircraft greatly reduce the RADAR return from the Front Arc ONLY. The US Navy did tests years ago and found out that they can track our own Stealth planes with long range RADAR that reflects off of the ionosphere and therefore the RADAR signals can get a return off of them due to the signal hitting them from the top. Also, stealth aircraft fly NOE(Nape Of the Earth) for a reason because if they fly much higher there is still a good chance of being detected by RADAR. So, please keep in mind that "Stealth does NOT equal Invisibility." Stealth technology as applied to aircraft, and I expect it to apply to spacecraft in the future, means reducing or spoofing a signature to make it appear to be something else.
With any sensor, even computer monitored ones, you have to have the system balanced at what it returns and what it interprets. Too sensitive and you will have too many false alerts, not sensitive enough and you miss things.
Another thing that the 'Anti-stealth' side is ignoring is that any inhabited system is going to have ship traffic, unless it is completely interdicted. So what if you get a ship that Jumps in, are you going scramble your fleet and rush off and attack every time something arrives? You simply will not be able to do that in most systems in the OTU. Even if you detect several ships arriving together, are there not multiple commercial ship convoys in the OTU? And so what if you detect an IR Source, the real military value of a sensor is at what range can you determine if that source is a Battleship or a Super Large Freighter?
Also, like Darkwing has been saying, what skill/morale is your sensor watch crew and/or the crew that programs the computer as to what to watch for? What is the maintenance status of your sensors? IME the only tech system that are in perfect operating order are in the design labs in isolated/perfect conditions...
Rigel Stardin
SOC-13
And here lies the problem.
We have two bombers in the US arsnel that reduce their radar signature to the size of a base ball (Don't quote me on that). They use special material and structural elements to reduce their radar signature by a factor of X. They have also reduced the IR signature by redesign the outlets and intacts.
Who knows what stealth will look like in the future?
We have two bombers in the US arsnel that reduce their radar signature to the size of a base ball (Don't quote me on that). They use special material and structural elements to reduce their radar signature by a factor of X. They have also reduced the IR signature by redesign the outlets and intacts.
Who knows what stealth will look like in the future?
This is the only point that I might take issue with.
A 250MW laser has a very specific way that it's heat leaves the ship (and you probably don't want it striking your sensor).
A powered down laser may require no energy, generate no heat and represents a higher possible power output from the PP. Likewise, the MD and JD also emit energy in very specific forms ... reactionless gravity or pseudogravity and tearing open the fabric of space.So what is the energy used for Life support? That probably ends up as heat, but that is far below the maximum power level for a ship firing its lasers and accelerating at full power ... most of the energy of which leaves the ship in a non-heat form.
I don't have good answers (except IMTU) but I think that the assumption that all energy ends up as heat works well for sizing AC units at TL 7-8, but may not be a valid rule of thumb at TL 12.
At a minimum, unrealistic efficiency must be assumed as another bi-product of Grav technology ... (although I personally prefer super heat pumps and thermocouple-like handwaves). YMMV.
Last edited:
They have mixed exhaust with outside cool air and repositioned outlets on top of the plane (a 2D move against IR missiles/seekers looking from below). The laws of physics remain intact. Apples & oranges.
Now, you can say that the heat will be dumped into an alternate universe. But, other than a "solution" like that. The heat is there to be detected...
Important note to add, "From the Front Arc ONLY" From above, below or behind they light up on RADAR* just dandy...
*note on my use of the spelling and capitalization of "RADAR." I capitalize the word not because I'm trying to stress the word, a la "yelling" in CAPS, but because that term is not an actual word but an acronym and it is proper to put all acronyms in CAPs...
****sorry, but it's a quirk that was verbally beat into me in tech school...
Rigel Stardin
SOC-13
Normal space is how cold? And yes I'm aware the sun side of the ship would be hotter than the side facing away from the sun. If you use the same technology to cool engine exhaust on you space craft...
That's the paradox in gaming and this discussion. We know there are stealth bombers, (we may not know exactly how they work) so their should be starships with stealth capabilities.
You can't as there is no atmosphere to disperse it in outside the craft. The temp in space is about -455 f.
BTW, we know exactly how stealth bombers work. The formulas are public knowledge.
Rigel Stardin
SOC-13
I'm point to the paradox here. And this comes from being a gamer and a GM, people see something in real life and want to translate it into the game. They may not have a full understanding on how those items work and will come up with reason why it should be imported into the game.
Stealth is one of those things desired by all players, whether it be an airplane or a starship.
Stealth is one of those things desired by all players, whether it be an airplane or a starship.
