Long Range Surveys with Jump 1

[Plankowner]

Some of the earlier discussions about the J4 and J5 routes across the Great Rift got me thinkning a bit (always dangerous ).

Theoretically, a Jump-1 capable civilization could settle the entire galaxy if they had enough time.

So, assuming TL9 or TL10 civilization, limited to Jump1. HOW would they organize a long-range exploration mission?

I figure the info from the Zhodani Core Expeditions could be a start, supply base systems etc. But with Jump1, TIME becomes a big factor.

Assume 3 jumps a month, that is 36 jumps a year (round it to 40 for convenience). Which barely allows you cross a Sector in a year.

Lets assume a max tonnage of 10,000 for the long-range ships.

What would the survey ships look like? How would you organize a survey at this low TL?

Economics probably could not work on the Imperial Model, what would have to change?

I seriously doubt that a true interstellar government could work much past the Sub-Sector sized, but what might work for a larger polity? How big could things reasonably get given the speed of travel?

Anything else that might be important, or interesting, about a large J1 civilization?

 

[rogermccarthy]

At least on J1 mains costs of trade would actually be cheaper as more of your ship can be cargo or passenger accomodation and less is fuel and drives.

Even when you have to deep space jump several consecutive J1's to get somewhere off the mains, transport unit costs would be cheaper as extra fuel and life support is still less expensive than fitting bigger J-drives.

Naval starships could carry a lot more armour and have M-6 as standard (and have no spinal mounts as these are TL12+).

As for survey ships a CT JI X-boat tender with huge collapsible fuel bladders in the hold would do the job perfectly well and be easily reconfigurable to other uses.

Also imagine asteroid hulls would be much more widely used given that you'll no longer have to try and squeeze J3 or higher drives and 30%+ fuel into your hulls.

And no PGMPs, gauss rifles or battledress - so warfare would look a lot more like Starship Troopers than Star Wars.

Comms would obviously be a lot slower but this might actually lead to more rigidly centralised and authoritarian govt than less (e.g. more like the C16 Spanish empire than the C19 British) as the centre can less afford to allow local particularisms to build up and pose a threat.

In fact this does describe the J2 late Vilani Imperium rather well and this might be good source of inspiration.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hi !

Very intresting thoughts...
First I would like to remarks, that even a tiny jump-1 would be a magnificant achievement for any civilisation.
It surely is a travel velocity, which brings more space, systems and perhaps planets in reach as a civilisation could handle anyway....

Originally posted by Plankowner:
Some of the earlier discussions about the J4 and J5 routes across the Great Rift got me thinkning a bit (always dangerous ).
Theoretically, a Jump-1 capable civilization could settle the entire galaxy if they had enough time.
So, assuming TL9 or TL10 civilization, limited to Jump1.
HOW would they organize a long-range exploration mission?

Guess its important to stress, that a TL9/10 civilisation is fully space ready, meaning the technology provides anything to get along well in an space environment.
The most important aspect is simply "power", so fusion power plant but also improved solar panels are the base on which life support and mobility relies.
So, for a long range exploration mission its pretty important to create waypoints, which ensure power supply for the waystation itself and for exploration vessels, which want to proceed.
There perhaps will be such waystations in deep space, which rely on outside fuel supply logistics and there will be waystations in a solar system, which are pretty independant, because they are able to gather fuel on their own and feed those deep space stations.
There has to be a logistic chain for any component you need for the mission and which cannot be produced or gathered "on the fly", namely some spare parts and people.

Well, this might be the safe way.
A more risky way would be to provide an exploration vessel, which is essentially independent, namly that could get - maybe different types of - fuel on its own or manufacture spare parts itself.
The major drawback IMHO would be, that there is no information connection back to its origin....

Originally posted by Plankowner:
I figure the info from the Zhodani Core Expeditions could be a start, supply base systems etc. But with Jump1, TIME becomes a big factor.
Assume 3 jumps a month, that is 36 jumps a year (round it to 40 for convenience). Which barely allows you cross a Sector in a year.
Lets assume a max tonnage of 10,000 for the long-range ships.
What would the survey ships look like? How would you organize a survey at this low TL?

Hm, depends on the way the exploration is done.
Using the waystation system and exploration ship would be a part of a logistics chain, providing a considerable amount of cargo space for waystation supply.
If its "on its own", it could concentrate on fuel and self-maintainance facilities.
Personally I would prefer the waystation model, as it appears safer to me.

Originally posted by Plankowner:

Economics probably could not work on the Imperial Model, what would have to change?
I seriously doubt that a true interstellar government could work much past the Sub-Sector sized, but what might work for a larger polity? How big could things reasonably get given the speed of travel?
Anything else that might be important, or interesting, about a large J1 civilization?

Guess this totally depends on the "dependance" of one unit in this picture from the other one.
If a colony does not depend on its origin anymore, the chances are pretty high, that it will act on its own sooner or later.
We all know those conflict breeding aspect relation between "able to be independant","not able to be independant","strive to be independant" and "forced not to be independant"....

I have no real idea, how long it would take to set up a colonie, which is able to keep a considerable high TL COMPLETLY on its own. Any ideas out there ?

At least the time duration, where colonies are de facto dependent, is perhaps the time duration an interstellar construction could be formed and kept.
If colonies start be really independant, its perhaps up to politics and/or force to keep things together.
Maybe the process of becoming independant happens peaceful, so the might be a "Interstellar Government" left, but only as an abstract contruction which is more an idea as a center of power.

But IMHO thats a rather complex topic anyway....

regards,

TE

 

[Flynn]

Given that most historical empires on Earth began to fall apart with a time lag between capital and borders and back again of six months or more, and that none have ever survived a time lag of more than a year, this gives us a practical limit on a single polity size of six months round trip from capital to borders and back again.

For Jump-1, at 10 days per jump, that nine jumps out and nine jumps back, or an area roughly the size of a quadrant.

Given that a ship can travel 36 jumps in a year before starting to break down, that's a frontier range of about 18 jumps out, or roughly a quadrant of explored space beyond the borders of this large Jump-1 polity.

Given that a ship can travel 36 jumps in a year, colonies that are not interested in returning could lie up to an entire sector away from the borders of this Jump-1 polity.

These colonies, in turn, may be the seeds for a future polities, which eventually serve as stepping stones for the race, but not for the polity. (Remember that time lag is a problem for political entities trying to maintain control.)

These colonies could also be used as stepping stones for further exploration, although only if the colony is open to such actions. (It is likely that they will not, at least initially, because why else would they want to establish a colony on what essentially was a one-way trip beyond the range of keeping a ship in proper annual maintenance?)

Multiply the ranges given above by the maximum Jump capacity of a polity to determine maximum possible sizes before collapse begins to occur.

At least, that's my thoughts on the subject, based on an understanding of the impact of time lag on humanity in the past. YMMV.

Hope this helps,
Flynn

 

[kafka47]

Certainly, it would make for a more merchantilized world, as people set out, there would have to be an enormous centralized of capital to finance expeditions and sizable return. Therefore, the model that I believe that you are suggesting corresponds best with the Pocket Empires of the T4 & TNE milieux. If by the Empire, you mean, the modular hegemony of the Imperium, I would agree with you. But, if you mean Empire, as in the classic Spanish, Portuguese or French Empires of the Age of Sail...I am not sure that I would agree with you. One of the great returns was gold for these empires, you would have to find a similar driver IYTU (TNE, its easy, old Imperial tech). This would have to be sufficiently abundant that would make the long voyages practical but sufficiently rare that it could only be obtained under duress. Then the secret would be to ensure that the technology did not change...

 

[Plankowner]

Thanks for the feedback.

I was thinking along the lines of a single planet that develops Jump1. They do not find any other star-faring races and while TL might improve, J2 is not something they develop. Spreading out at J1, without opposition, they could eventually fill the galaxy. There couldn't be any kind of central government, but there might be cultural things that bind just about every planet.

Pocket Empires or the 1st Imperium would be good examples, if they were plausible. I'm not convinced that the 1st Imperium is really a plausible way for an interstellar civilization to expand from Vland, but that is neither here nor there.

In many ways, TIME is the only reason for having a bigger Jump Drive. The fuel consumption is basically the same (a bit higher due to higher PP fuel on long trips, but not like Jump Fuel) so expansion could be slow and steady until you found something to make you stop.

Trade would be even more closely tied to the mains, clusters etc than it is in the OTU. Jumping 2 hexes with the same cargo will cost you time, you could only make 2 trips a month, so revenue would be greatly reduced if you had to go farther to trade.

 

[atpollard]

I have no real idea, how long it would take to set up a colony, which is able to keep a considerable high TL COMPLETLY on its own. Any ideas out there ?

For rate of growth to independence, populations double every 20 years with modern medicine and society. As a rough guess, when population exceeds the world size, the planet NEEDS to expand into space (lunar colonization or orbital farms at least).

IMTU, I assume a general relationship between a TL and the minimum population required to sustain that TL independently. For example:
Pop 2 (Hundreds of people) could support the infrastructure for a Medieval Village (TL 2).
Pop 3 (Thousands of people) could support the infrastructure for a Colonial Town (TL 3).
Pop 4 (Tens of Thousands of people) could support a Victorian City (TL 4).
Pop 5 (Hundreds of Thousands of people) could support an Early 20th Century City (TL 5).
Pop 6 (Millions of people) could support the infrastructure for a Modern Nation (TL 6).
Pop 7 (Tens of Millions of people) could support the infrastructure for a Space Program (TL 7).

These are just my personal guidelines.

[EDIT] Given the above assumptions, I calculate a natural rate of advancement for a new colony of about 67 years per Tech Level (the time required for the population to increase 10 fold, so they have the workforce to fill all of the required jobs on planet). Faster with immigration and slower with a harsh environment.

 

[TheEngineer]

Hm, doesn't population growth decreases at higher TLs ?
At least on our real world the population of the industrial countries is far away from doubling ...

Perhaps I would even consider to lower the needed population level until certain higher TLs are reached.
...

 

[travlar]

You can have higher tech levels sooner if you are less spread out. It isn't the tech directly that reduces the rate of growth but mor the culture.

 

[Sifu Blackirish]

IMHO population increases begin to decline as pop approaches world size.

With the advent of space travel, one can ignore the "limits to growth" arguments.

This is exactly the point. Unless humanity is willing to stabilize its birth rate which means there has to at some point be ZERO population growth - then humanity is doomed! None of the world's problems have a solution while people think they can have x number of kids where x is a number much greater than 2.

web page

If one adds space/starflight capability, all those assumptions go out the window!

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Dominion Loyalty Officer:
IMHO population increases begin to decline as pop approaches world size.

Hmmm... But that would mean that a Size-1 world (with as much surface area and resources as a small country, for the very least) could only have several tens of people... And an asteroid belt could not have any. You'll probably want to set a bit higher limit for smaller worlds. I suggest to set the population limit to 6 for worlds of size 3-, to 7 for worlds of size 4-5, to 8 for worlds of size 6-7 and to 9 for worlds of size 8-A. Pop A you could only get in either an asteroid belt or on a large world with common interplanetary spaceflight (for the very least). All these limits are increased by two once the world has common spaceflight.

Originally posted by Dominion Loyalty Officer:
With the advent of space travel, one can ignore the "limits to growth" arguments.

No, you can't ignore them, but they apply only to a single world not to humanity as a whole (as, unfortunately, they do now).

However, these limits are not set in stone. more energy-efficient and less polluting technology, and, more importantly, more sustainable resource management, would increase the population the world could have without causing significant biosphere damage.

Also, cheap spacefight means that you could mine asteroids and other planets and thus resource depletion is far less of an issue - and, better yet, you could move many of the most polluting factories to the moon (where you live in self-contained environments so pollution of the lunar surface isn't THAT of an issue). So the limits are moved to a bit higher level.

 

[TheEngineer]

Guess theretical population growth and its limits is a rather complicate topic

Perhaps its an oversimplication to stress just dependancies from size or other UWP stats.
E.g. even a size 1 world is a pretty big place, so a billion people there would result in a population density around 120 per km². Thats just half of the density in Germany...
Take Bangladesh and a size 1 world would host 10 billion people.
Ok, thats a crowded place, but sufficient technology could get along with that.

Regards,

TE

 

[atpollard]

With respect to very small worlds (size 0-4), remember that in the real world physics, they are too small to support an atmosphere (Mars is size 4).

Until a population of tens of thousands of people is reached and allows local industry to build TL 4 domes, the population would be limited to the area within the habitat dome which was built by the same space faring TL that brought the people there. The habitat dome on a size 1 world would have little gravity and WOULD be hard pressed to house more than 100 people (Pop 2) - especially if they wanted to grow their own food.

Although size = population is not perfectly accurate, it also ignores hydrographics and fertility of farmland which could reduce the habitable area and available food supply. It works as a back of the envelope approximation of when a world starts to 'feel crowded'.

 

[TheEngineer]

I though about higher TL civilisations/colonies, which where less environment dependent anyway ....
Any settlement would perhaps more like archologies, too

Perhaps we could work out a rough max pop capacity, based on the UWP stats, trade codes etc....
Lets just think, isn't there something similar given in MT hard Times ???

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by atpollard:
Until a population of tens of thousands of people is reached and allows local industry to build TL 4 domes, the population would be limited to the area within the habitat dome which was built by the same space faring TL that brought the people there. The habitat dome on a size 1 world would have little gravity and WOULD be hard pressed to house more than 100 people (Pop 2) - especially if they wanted to grow their own food.

That would be a good reason to start the colony with atleast 10,000 initial colonists and quite alot of industrial gear - that will allow the colony to support itself on the short term, and is only the matter of a few roundtrips (especially if the colonists are carried in cryo-storage) by a 5,000-dton bulk carrier (cargo around 3,000 dtons).

Although size = population is not perfectly accurate, it also ignores hydrographics and fertility of farmland which could reduce the habitable area and available food supply. It works as a back of the envelope approximation of when a world starts to 'feel crowded'.

At TL8+, as long as you have water and fertilizers you could grow your food hydroponically; fertilizers could be manufactured from most rocks with a significant phosphate or nitrogen-compound content, or imported. The main issue is the availability of water - even worldswith HYD 0 have, in many cases, some water-soure or another (for example, the LBB3 WorldGen rules does not refer to the possibility of existance of ice-chunk rocks in an asteroid belt (SIZ 0), though I'd find it to hard to imagine a colonized belt without minable ice. Worlds with REALLY no water (not just HYD 0 - even HYD 0 worlds such as Luna could have small amounts of ice from crashing comets, or could have roks from which oxygen and hydrogen could be produced and from these both power and water could arise) would rarely be colonized unless there is some significant resource that justifies the transport of offworld water to the colony.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
So, assuming TL9 or TL10 civilization, limited to Jump1. HOW would they organize a long-range exploration mission?

I figure the info from the Zhodani Core Expeditions could be a start, supply base systems etc. But with Jump1, TIME becomes a big factor.

This would depend on several things:
1) What is needed to maintain or repair a ship over the long run (more than a year)? If the annual maintainance requires a drydock, then most expeditions will have to return to civilized space within a year or so; if maintainance equipment could be performed by a specialized 10,000-dton ship, then a multiple-ship expedition could go on longer journeys.
2) How much space do supplies take? How much of the life-support and other needd supplies could be harvested "in the wild" and refined by a ship-board factory? How much of the nescery spare parts for on-route repairs could be manufactured by a small ship-board factory?

My general impression is that a year for a roundtrip would be a good benchmark for an expedition's duration, though, ofcourse, you could always leave beind long-term bases on the worlds you visit to conduct more thorough exploration while you're gone.

Longer journeys require special considerations, such as having spare drives per ship (to avoid maintainance for another year or two), paying extra for more sturdy equipment, setting up industrial colonies and so on.

Assume 3 jumps a month, that is 36 jumps a year (round it to 40 for convenience). Which barely allows you cross a Sector in a year.

For an exploratory journey, you'd probably want to spend more than a week in each system to collect detailed data and/or set up research bases. 2 jumps a month look like a good benchmark for a "general survey" type of journey, but more detailed exploration would have even lower jump rates per month. 2 jumps a month is 24 jumps a year; assuming a year-long roundtrip, that's 12 parsecs from the nearest starport-A (remember that after a year in the "wild" you'd want repairs, maintainance, refitting, resupply and a long vacation for the crew). Remember that, as the frontier areas would rarely have starport-A's, expeditions would have to spend some of their jumps within settled space, so you won't explore more than a subsector or so outside of settled space.

What would the survey ships look like? How would you organize a survey at this low TL?

Probably a multi-ship taskforce, with one command/science ship, one factory ship (probably with asteroid mining and processing facilities as well), one or several supply ships, atleast one tanker, a hydroponics ship (to grow fresh food; water and nutrients will be mined from asteroids by the factory ship), one repair ship (if a 10,000-dton ship could make serious repairs or even annual maintainance to other ships, which probably depends on the ruleset) and possibly one or more ships carrying crews and equipment for setting up permament pases on the explored worlds.

Shorter journeys of exploration (1-4 parsecs beyond known space, I'd say) could be done by one ship; the Von Braun exploratory vessel in the System Shock 2 computer game fits this bill.

Economics probably could not work on the Imperial Model, what would have to change?

I seriously doubt that a true interstellar government could work much past the Sub-Sector sized, but what might work for a larger polity? How big could things reasonably get given the speed of travel?

Anything else that might be important, or interesting, about a large J1 civilization?

The answers to these questions depend to a significant degree, on whether the J1 civilization is a new one (i.e. the fisrt century or so of starflight from the homeworld) or an old one (i.e. existing for centuries or millenia at TL9-10).

For a young civilization, having an interstellar government usualy isn't much of a problem as explored (and settled) space is small anyway; the polity would probably be less than a quadrant in size anyway. With Jump-1, expansion would favor the "arms" approach along mains and semi-mains (with a few 2-Jump-1 gaps in the middle), and so would trade. On the frontier, ships will sometimes pass through think of the Nostromo in Alien and how it traveled through several barely-explored systems to go from a frontier colony to Earth.

 

[atpollard]

We are reaching the point where a fair amount of data is being discovered about other solar systems, and Earth has no stars within 1 parsec. By FTL TLs, basic data like the presence of a world in the habitable zone (liquid water) and the number of gas giants should be known before the jump. This information could affect the design of the exploration.

Mapping a main for expected settlement is a different mission from crossing a rift to see what lies beyond it. The ships would reflect this.

 

[atpollard]

This discussion would also apply to an Alternate Traveller Universe where Jump drive is binary - either you can travel FTL (your civilization has Jump-1) or you cannot travel FTL and rely on STL ships.

Jump-2 is where you bring along enough fuel to travel 2 parsecs in 2 weeks. Jump-3 is where you bring along enough fuel to travel 3 parsecs in 3 weeks. And so on.

 

[Plankowner]

The original Aslan Book has rules for exploration. I think they use 6 hexes for detecting GG and 3 hexes for detecting other planets.

I agree that you would have a rough idea of what planets were there before you went. We are just beginning to get there now; figure with dedicated space-based telescopes, you would be able to map at least a sub-sector out past your settled worlds. Surveying them though...

Just because there is an earth-sized world in the habitable zone does not mean it is a Terra Prime world, or even has a breathable atmosphere.

A fleet of half-a-dozen ships seems reasonable.

atpollard is right though, exploring down a main is going to be a very different mission from surveying a cluster that is isolated by 3 parsecs of empty space...

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by alte:
At least on J1 mains costs of trade would actually be cheaper as more of your ship can be cargo or passenger accomodation and less is fuel and drives.

This is also true for main-traders built in higher-TL settings where higher jump numbers are available; if alot of worlds are close together and have a high enough flow of trade, Jump-1-only ships would be built specifically for them. The big difference in a Jump-1-only universe would be that most settled worlds would either be on mains or within 2-Jump-1 from them, with collapsible fuel bladders used for jumps to these few worlds (such as Earth).

Naval starships could carry a lot more armour and have M-6 as standard (and have no spinal mounts as these are TL12+).

Naval starships would probably be able to afford better M-drives than usual in such a setting - remember that J-drives are expensive and tend to be quite big. However, I'd design most naval ships for 2 consequtive Jump-1's (i.e. 20% fuel) so that they'll be able to reach most worlds and, when moving through a main, would be able to retreat quickly after a jump (great for hit-and-run tactics).

And no PGMPs, gauss rifles or battledress - so warfare would look a lot more like Starship Troopers than Star Wars.

I'd say more Aliens than Starship Troopers - as the latter had powered armor. Also, in a TL9-10 universe, grav vehicles won't be as common as in the OTU, and in a strict TL9 universe grav vehicles would be quite uncommon in combat, so we'll be looking at MBTs and APCs rather than grav-tanks and g-carriers.

Comms would obviously be a lot slower but this might actually lead to more rigidly centralised and authoritarian govt than less (e.g. more like the C16 Spanish empire than the C19 British) as the centre can less afford to allow local particularisms to build up and pose a threat.

Remember that, in a "young" TL9-10 setting, the entire polity's size would typically be small (a quadrant at most), so communication times won't differ greatly from those of the Imperium (or would be faster if we're talking of a subsector or so of space). In an "older" setting, you'll probably have to balance between the need to crush local particularisms and the need to have someone capable and reliable at the scene (when you - the government - are several months of comm lag away).