Imperial population distribution.

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Anthony:
I think the Rim has a government code tweak; there are an unlikely number of Hi-pop worlds with government types 2 or 4 (there's a Hi-pop world with govt 2, which is impossible to roll with standard CT sysgen). That would result in a LL tweak.

Anthony,

Azun isn't it? I'm away on business at the moment and my memory becomes more sieve-like every day.

The TL cap was 15; there are no TL 16 worlds in the Rim.

I do remember LKW saying they capped it at 15. I also seem to recall him saying that they did more than that. Statistically, there are fewer TL 15 worlds on the Rim than elsewhere. So the TL 'range' is constrained; fewer low-tech and fewer high-tech.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[rgd]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rob D.:
I'd love to see the same analyses done with that assumption - use the same modifiers GDW used for the Sol.Rim on all the sectors - to give the other end of the spectrum. That would give refs a good range for the type of 3I they want for their TU.

Hard to do without knowing what they are. </font>[/QUOTE]Well it seems that GDW modified the sysgen rules a bit more than I thought - and tailored it even more to what they felt the Solomani Rim should be like (thanks, Bill, Anthony, for that data!). TL on average not higher than the 3I, higher population, special gov/LL stuff - all to fit the Rim as described.

So I'd say they wouldn't be as useful in the manner I suggested. The developed sectors wouldn't all be like the Rim either.

I'd suggest:
- a POP and TL boost similar to the Rim's modifier
- maybe a TL floor (min. +1 to TL per 250 years of development?)
- maybe a ceiling (16 - to keep it in line with the 3I's generally accepted TL)
- let the GOV/LL stay as is (though I'd be tempted to add a negative to GOV for age to counter the increased modifier for increased Pop - but that's just a gut feeling, not sure it would line up with the 3I's general description)

Generate the social characteristics of the worlds in the 3I with those modifiers (ideally those worlds listed in the Atlas using the physical characteristics listed for them there).
Then use that as an upper end of the spectrum - a 'stronger, more developed 3I'. The CT sysgen used for GEnie/sunbane would provide the lower end of a 'weaker, more disparate 3I'.
Most analyses I've seen have been based on the latter, it's the former I'd like to add to the mix. Then you can have a range of answers for refs to use when pondering the great mysteries - size of the IN, tax basis, trade levels, etc., using the starting point of asking "How big/strong/developed is your 3I?"

Personally, I like a fairly developed/strong 3I with the core sectors being full of marvels and political intrigue, and being an interesting counterpoint to the life in the Marches. Not as strong as Asimov's Empire, maybe more like Anderson's Terran Empire (Flandry setting - but less decadent/decaying). But if someone wants a big, strong 3I to be the Evil Empire for a "plucky rebels fighting the evil empire" game, these mods might help.

I've had notes over the years like this - where there are sets of such modifiers to the sysgen for a subsector depending on whether it's Frontier, Interior, Core. Now that I'm thinking about it again, you could probably add an orthoganal modifier set for "Post-Rebellion" and "Post-Virus/TNE" too. Or ones for M0 or M200 or "Mid-Long Night", etc.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:

Statistically, there are fewer TL 15 worlds on the Rim than elsewhere.

Imperium: 872/8893 worlds (9.8%) at TL F or G. 33% of total population at TL F or G
Rim: 73/400 worlds (18.2%) at TL F. 39% of total population at TL F.

If there was such a correction attempted, it didn't work or was insignificant (I believe the correction was to cap Solomani worlds at TL E). On Hi-pop govt 2/4 worlds, we have (including law level) Shulusish (A22), Dimmurak (924), Shilgiili (945), Nusku (943), Tewfik (945), Thetis (944), Aosta (A26), Banasdan (A44).

For generating Imperial worlds in settled areas, TL max depends if you're generating 1105 data or 1120 data. TL F was max in the CT era.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Anthony:
If there was such a correction attempted, it didn't work or was insignificant (I believe the correction was to cap Solomani worlds at TL E).

Anthony,

I could very well be remembering all this incorrectly and I'm a few states away from my notes. However, the overall Solomani TL in the CT Era is 14 and the impetus of the Rim War is supposedly what put the Imperium over the TL 15 'hump'.

ISTR, LKW writing that on either side of the border the Rim was supposed to generally below the Imperial maximum TL while also having fewer lo-tech worlds. The distribution curve was thus both 'squeezed', with fewer numbers at the extremes, and 'skewed', with the curve's peak set somewhat higher than the Imperial curve's peek.

Of course, I could very well be error on this. While my memories on the subject seem strong, they also could easily be false. The Rim was generated nearly 25 years ago so the precise 'nuts & bolts' of that effort and the thinking that went into the process could be lost to time also.


Have fun,
Bill

P.S. We only have four non-Sunbane sectors from the CT/MT eras, the Marches, the Rim, Gvuurdon, and the Hinterworlds. We know that sysgen for both the Marches and Rim was tweaked. What do we know about the other two? Is there a non-tweaked, correctly generated sector at all?

 

[Pickles]

Just to go way off on a tangent, this population disparity must have some interesting effects on environmental technology.

Presumably most of the rich, hi-pop worlds will be using technology which doesn't mess up their overworked ecological balance, but there would be no such incentive for planets with tiny populations, or overpopulated industrial colonies.

Makes for a lot of background diversity, from the rich super-pretty worlds with clan air and sweet water, through the nasty polluted industrial hell-holes to the sparsely settled world which are able to ravage their environment with relative impunity. Ok, you wouldn't want to set up your primitive coal-fired powerstation right next to your house, but as long as it's out of sight, it's out of mind.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
P.S. We only have four non-Sunbane sectors from the CT/MT eras, the Marches, the Rim, Gvuurdon, and the Hinterworlds. We know that sysgen for both the Marches and Rim was tweaked. What do we know about the other two? Is there a non-tweaked, correctly generated sector at all?

Gvurrdon would at least use the Vargr modifiers, which I don't happen to know what are. I believe that Old Expanses also predates Sunbane and was generated with a variant sysgen; it appears to be generated with about the same system as the Rim. We also have some subsector sized areas which are CT-era.

I suspect what happened with TL on the Rim is that a TL tweak, if it existed, was overwhelmed by the tweaks to starport code -- 95% of the Rim population lives on a world with a class-A port, vs 31% of the general population.

 

[rgd]

Originally posted by Anthony:

Imperium: 872/8893 worlds (9.8%) at TL F or G. 33% of total population at TL F or G

Sorry, but I have to be snarky here and point out that I believe that calculation is "based on non-canon data" and shouldn't be assumed as fact.

(I think it's probably on the lower end of the spectrum. If the core/developed sectors are more like the Rim than the Marches, these number might be higher.)

For generating Imperial worlds in settled areas, TL max depends if you're generating 1105 data or 1120 data. TL F was max in the CT era.

Agreed, good point.

I suspect what happened with TL on the Rim is that a TL tweak, if it existed, was overwhelmed by the tweaks to starport code -- 95% of the Rim population lives on a world with a class-A port, vs 31% of the general population.

"vs 31% of the general population, based on non-canon data."

(ducks and runs away...)

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Rob D.:
Sorry, but I have to be snarky here and point out that I believe that calculation is "based on non-canon data" and shouldn't be assumed as fact.

True but irrelevant, since what we were really interested in was comparison vs CT system generation, which is generally pretty similar to what the Genii data set gives.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Anthony:
I suspect what happened with TL on the Rim is that a TL tweak, if it existed, was overwhelmed by the tweaks to starport code -- 95% of the Rim population lives on a world with a class-A port, vs 31% of the general population.

Anthony,

Very good point.

I suspect we'll never exactly know all the hows and whys, mainly because the principles don't remember it all themselves! As LKW continually points out, it was over 25 years ago and it wasn't as if they were documenting every decision so that a bunch of fan(atics) could discuss every detail.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[rgd]

Originally posted by Anthony:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rob D.:
Sorry, but I have to be snarky here and point out that I believe that calculation is "based on non-canon data" and shouldn't be assumed as fact.

True but irrelevant, since what we were really interested in was comparison vs CT system generation, which is generally pretty similar to what the Genii data set gives. </font>[/QUOTE]Ah, I see. My apologies for snarkyness (it's just an issue that gets me going).

 

[mike wightman]

Try it now.

 

[Plankowner]

Could someone with some computer ability go into the Solomani Rim and figure out what the tweaks were?

Seems to me the population and Starport info should be pretty easy since they are independent variables. Gov, LL and TL might be harder but might be workable.

Just thought I would throw out a challenge...

 

[Anthony]

It can't really be done, we don't have a large enough sample set. Inspection of the data suggests that it wasn't generated with simple 2d6 rolls, but does not reveal what the tweak was.

 

[rgd]

Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
242? That is a bit more.

In a way it helps me understand how after so long small traders continue to exist. I would think that after a 100 years that margins would have dropped...

unless perhaps it's in an area where development is artificially suppressed - like the Marches where for generations it's been a buffer zone between the Zhodani and the Imperium, military presence but not a lot of incentive to spend development investment credits there.
That could keep margins consequently higher.

For areas like Zarushagar, Dagudushaag, Ilelish, and others in the 'pot belly of the Imperium' where there aren't such artificial pressures, they may be much more fully developed, with consequent loss of margin for small traders.

and consolidation within the shipping industry would have done away with the small time carrier in favor of big megacorp sized carriers. If there just isn’t enough reason for regular service to most of the Imperium then it makes the existence of the small carriers more plausible.

I agree - for more developed, core, areas - but now maybe for others too, those without threat of alien invasion, etc., to keep them underdeveloped. (That might even make more areas of the 3I more developed than the Marches look - making the 3I a stronger, wealthier place than extrapolating CT sysgen rules would indicate.

)

With any world above TL-7 using mechanized farming, birth control available at TL-6 and most desirable high TL manufactured goods being shipped out from those high pop worlds then there is no incentive to have a large family.

Hmmm - making it ripe for conquest by a Dune-like jihad of all the 'low tech' 'oppressed' peoples of the 3I... Could be interesting.

There was little keeping it together. If economic power is based on localities and trade does not travel very far due to the high cost and available of high tech goods and food locally (say within eight parsecs) then why go elsewhere?

Or - figure out what reasons there might be to keep the 3I together, to make trade worthwhile - so things stay consistent with the descriptions.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence - there could be factors and facets to the 3I not well documented because they aren't all that interesting to PCs but which for the majority of the population on those 242+ worlds makes it worth their while to stick together and trade with each other. Even if it's to find out the latest sports scores and fashions...

That's the way I try to look at things anyway - the 3I is (or can be in one's TU) a strong, 1000-year-old entity. What reasons could there be that are holding it together.
A lot is made of the shipping costs - I haven't examined that in detail, but maybe the costs we've seen are primarily for areas like the Marches where the margins/costs might still be higher due to the artificial pressures keeping it from fully developing. Maybe shipping costs intra-core or between 'civilized' areas of the Imperium are less.

 

[Anthony]

Shipping costs can be derived from the costs of ships. However, I suspect the real thing holding the Imperium together is a combination of inertia and lack of a strong reason not to hold together. The Imperium lets worlds get away with so much that it's hard to figure out why most of them would bother to rebel.

 

[rgd]

Originally posted by Plankowner:
Could someone with some computer ability go into the Solomani Rim and figure out what the tweaks were?

Seems to me the population and Starport info should be pretty easy since they are independent variables. Gov, LL and TL might be harder but might be workable.

Just thought I would throw out a challenge...

I think it would be more useful to come up with mods that should be used.

(see my post in this thread on 06 July, 2006 00:34

I'd suggest:
- a POP and TL boost similar to the Rim's modifier
- maybe a TL floor (min. +1 to TL per 250 years of development?)
- maybe a ceiling (16 - to keep it in line with the 3I's generally accepted TL)
- let the GOV/LL stay as is (though I'd be tempted to add a negative to GOV for age to counter the increased modifier for increased Pop - but that's just a gut feeling, not sure it would line up with the 3I's general description)

Generate the social characteristics of the worlds in the 3I with those modifiers (ideally those worlds listed in the Atlas using the physical characteristics listed for them there).
Then use that as an upper end of the spectrum - a 'stronger, more developed 3I'. The CT sysgen used for GEnie/sunbane would provide the lower end of a 'weaker, more disparate 3I'.

Might need ways to account for "Strong Imperium" and "Weak Imperium" views.
And sector types like:
- Core (developed, mature)
- Frontier (active development, (much) less developed than Core but developing, immature),
- Backwater (inactive development, less developed than Core sectores, mature - the "jump over sectors"),
- March (inactive development, (much) less developed than Core, immature - but military presence - a defense line)
- Wilds (unknown - from lifeless to remnants of lost civilizations)

 

[rgd]

Originally posted by Anthony:
Shipping costs can be derived from the costs of ships. However, I suspect the real thing holding the Imperium together is a combination of inertia and lack of a strong reason not to hold together. The Imperium lets worlds get away with so much that it's hard to figure out why most of them would bother to rebel.

OK, so humor me then, as a person who likes the setting with a strong 3I that, while certainly flawed, has enough ideals/history/whatever that the PCs view it as worth fighting for.
Couldn't there be other reasons that hold the 3I together? Ideals? ("bringing light of civilization to the darkness" - certainly good say pre-civil war) Economic, tech? (realizing that some frontier/march areas may not be seeing the development credits to see as much benefit)
Culture? (requires strong communication, education, indoctrination efforts and infrastructure as well as possibly cheaper travel [which may be possible in more developed core areas])

Any examples of other large polities in history that held together for a long time, that we might look at in a similar way and say "how did they hold together?" ?

Or is it hopeless, and without drastic additions to canon, no analysis will show anything other than a weak, decayed/decaying, decrepit, debauched, unadmirable, immoral political entity held together by name only because in reality it's a sham with no force behind it, and it's really such a loose confederation of worlds that other than a few fleets of ships anyone could march in and take over as many as they wanted and the population wouldn't care anyway because 99.999999% never leave their world anyway and none of that makes any difference to almost everyone?

(I'm trying to post my worst case here in hopes that someone will say, "well, it's not *that* bad because of X or Y". Then I can latch on to X or Y and go from there.

)

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by Rob D.:
OK, so humor me then, as a person who likes the setting with a strong 3I that, while certainly flawed, has enough ideals/history/whatever that the PCs view it as worth fighting for.
Couldn't there be other reasons that hold the 3I together?

The Imperium lacks discernable ideals other than survival, considering it doesn't do anything about worlds with appalling dictatorships, internal warfare, or other forms of general lack of civilization.
The Imperium is vaguely in favor of free trade, though given its tacit tolerance of trade wars, only very vaguely. A major argument for overthrowing the Imperium would be doing a better job.
The Imperium is vaguely in favor of worlds being free of external influence, though since it permits worlds to conquer their neighbors on occasion, only vaguely.
The Imperium lacks a discernable common culture, for much the same reason as it lacks discernable ideals.
The Imperium has a lot of history, but that's just inertia at work.

Or is it hopeless, and without drastic additions to canon, no analysis will show anything other than a weak, decayed/decaying, decrepit, debauched, unadmirable, immoral political entity held together by name only because in reality it's a sham with no force behind it, and it's really such a loose confederation of worlds that other than a few fleets of ships anyone could march in and take over as many as they wanted and the population wouldn't care anyway because 99.999999% never leave their world anyway and none of that makes any difference to almost everyone?

Yep, you've described the Imperium.

 

[Plankowner]

I would think the Chinese civilization and the Roman Empire would be good examples of long-term civilizations.

You could make an arguement that the Roman Empire faced many of the same limitations on communications that the 3I feels.

The key to the Roman Empire (IN MY OPINION) was that people everywhere thought of themselves as ROMAN first. Most of them never made it to Rome, but they considered themselves Romans. Even after the Empire had essentially lost all power, the IDEA of Rome was still very strong. Look at Charlemain (sp?). Centuries after Rome had fallen, he used the IDEA of Rome to found the Holy Roman Empire.

The Third Imperium may be held together with similar ideas. We are IMPERIAL citizens and that idea of IMPERIALISM is what keeps everyone together. It's an US and THEM kind of arguement, but human history has shown it to be a very strong idea. Remember, the Third Imperium had the glorius history of the first two Imperiums to draw on. Was is valid for Cleon to claim the Third Imperium as being a direct descendant of the first two? Probably not, but the IDEA of IMPERIUM was obviously very strong in human space and that IDEA probably holds everyone together.

I suspect that in the ashes of TNE, SOMEONE SOMEWHERE will use the IDEA of the FOURTH IMPERIUM to gather worlds under it's control. Whether they deserve the right to be called the 4I or not doesn't really matter, again it is an idea.

 

[Anthony]

Both the Chinese and the Roman empires imposed a common government and culture.