Imperial Law

[Elliot]

Is there such a thing as Imperial Law?
The blurb put out by the Ancient of Days on the Far Future website would indicate not, but I would think that interstellar trade needed an Imperial Commercial Code (similar to the American UCC)to regulate disputes and confirm the duties of parties engaged in interstellar commerce.

It seems to me if the balkanised and competitive states of 20th century Terra (Solomani dating system) can agree on a law of internation trade, the 3I can issue a law of interstellar trade. Is the 3I really an anarchy with the illusion of government?

Likewise, CT mentions such concepts as Citizenship (e.g. the edict of 17 Cleon) and the protection of all sophonts - but what is citizenship and protection without an overarching system of (enforceable) law?

Can the aristocracy of Vanejen really go about slaughtering chirpers without incurring an investigation by the Imperial Ministry of Justice?

Furthermore, if an Emperor can issue an edict that binds Imperial citizens for centuries (e.g. again the edict of 17 Cleon), there must be a court, or a court system to interpret and enforce those edicts - does a judicial committee of the Imperial Moot exist?, a subsector assize? a Sector court of appeal?

Any thoughts travellers?

 

[kafka47]

I think Imperial law does exist. Especially, when Imperial jurdiction is concerned. But, because the worlds ultimately decide to join the Imperium, it is a question of harmonizing their legal systems with that of the 3I. So anything that hinders free trade and the imperium's right to use force is prohibited, everything else is laissez faire, laisses passe.

Ultimately, I think the Imperium evolves beyond trade institutions toward codifying practices in its sphere of influence and therefore, has an evolution akin to the development of the EU. Where laws made in Capital, might take years to reach the frontier. But by the time they do, there exists sufficient intermeshing of elite circles that similar laws have already been passed by the local nobility.

 

[soloprobe]

If you agree the Empire's laws exist, you must also remember. the Imperium's authority ends at the Extrality Line. Since individual planets govern themselves, Once outside the Starport you are out of Imperial jurisdiction(sp?). Imperial Law is enforced only in space lanes and in starports. This would mean Imperial law is for Pirates and Hijackers...

 

[Elliot]

I think a distinction has to be made between Imperial law which covers interstellar jurisdiction (aspects of trade disputes, the law of war, basic rights of sophonts and certain crimes) and local jurisdictions.

To my mind the operation of the Imperial legal system is like that of the British Empire - the Judicial committee of the Privy Council or the House of Lords was the supreme court of appeal for the whole empire. However, each colony or dominion (eg Canada, Australia, Hong Kong) had its own courts and codes based on the common law of England and Wales.

The legal system of the EU is another way in which imperial law could work - each state (or sector) having its own law which are harmonised by Directives from the mysterious power upon high (i.e. Brussels, the Moot).

I don't think it is right to say that beyond the starport all law is local law - I repeat the point made above - can local magnates use nuclear weapons without an Imperial intervention? Can they commit genocide in breach of the Edict of 17 Cleon I without a battalion of Imperial Marines turning up?

Even in the modern day the 'powers that be' cannot (well, do not) intervene to stop the tyrannies of places like Afganistan, Serbia or Zimbabwe without legal sanction by some legally representative body (such as the UN). I think the same must be true of the 3I

 

[kafka47]

As to the interpetation of such laws. I think you are quite right to assign something akin to the standing committees of the House of Lords.

But, remember that the 3i is a much more feudal society than the present UK. There would be parallel systems of justice for the nobility and those for the citizens. Nobles would be tried by nobles. Citizens, unless their area of complaint dealt with a noble or similar trans-stellar enity, eg. a Megacorp or Merc battalon would get short thrift with nobles. Therefore, the whole array of minor courts could exist. Appeal to imperial law, could be done but would only have limited success. So do not think of the Court of Human Rights in the EU, think rather of pre-industrial UK where JPs had more power.

 

[Vargas]

Imperial law exists as per the original JTAS article on high justice crimes in the 'Law and Lawbreaker's' issue (which I think was number. . .er. . .15?). Imperial law deals in those big items like interstellar war and trade.

 

[jasper]

the Imperiliaum We rule space so you don't have to.

 

[flykiller]

From the beginning the Imperium has been described as a rule of men, not laws.

Given this, just what does "law" mean in the Imperium? Does it mean more than whatever the local Admirals and nobility say it means? It's hard to conceive of a coherent legal environment existing under these conditions.

Imperial "law" is described as applying only to space and the ports, but this doesn't mean much - the nobility don't live in space or at the ports, they live on their individual worlds and have their power bases on those worlds. If they are the nobility and they make the laws, then why shouldn't they view their ports and systems as being just another facet of their jurisdiction? If the ports are outside of their jurisdiction, then just who controls them? Foreign nobles? And just where are these foreign nobles based, and who controls the ports on their worlds? More foreign nobles?

 

[Ben W Bell]

Imperial Law also governs such matters as interstellar banking and, a big one for many, copyrights. Also the Imperial Credit is totally controlled by the Imperium.

 

[Straybow]

It would mean that Imperial nobility is a form of de facto diplomatic status. Some measure of immunity or appeal to Imperial justice applies.

On Earth there have been similar situations. Roman citizenship provided appeal to local law, even after Rome itself had collapsed. Roman law and Frankish law applied in parallel, with separate courts and everything.

 

[cougashika]

The alternative to a rule by edict and law is the rule of force. In fact, one might even say that without the rule of force there is no force behind rules. As to the Extrality issue I refer to my previous statement. Is Imperial law at Frogbottom Downport a matter of the Port Authority, or is it that maniple of Imperial Marines in battle dress?

Remember: gravity - its not just a good idea; its the law.

 

[Elliot]

Lenin once described the State as the men with the guns. Any real system of law is based on the power of force - i.e. I hit you and take your wallet, the cops have legitimate warrant to deprive me of my liberty. I break a commercial agreement with you, the court ultimately has power to seize my property to pay you your
losses.

Yet no one sues on a sale of goods agreement (i.e. my tv dont work) because they percieve that the state will act by force. If the defendant does not pay up, the state may well do so.

The question is does that Imperial Marine's remit come by edict and statute or by the FGMP she carries?

To put it in a blunt form, if the marine acts by a regular code of behaviour then there is law not pure force.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by flykiller:
From the beginning the Imperium has been described as a rule of men, not laws.

Which is obviously just as much a mere catch-phrase as the one about the Imperium only ruling the space between the stars.

Given this, just what does "law" mean in the Imperium? Does it mean more than whatever the local Admirals and nobility say it means? It's hard to conceive of a coherent legal environment existing under these conditions.

Non-canon alert: A lot of the following is my interpretation of canon, not canon. I like to think that it fits with canon, but that's as far as I will go in my claims.

Law in the Imperium consists of Imperial and planetary law. Each member state has a membership treaty and every membership treaty sets forth the relationship between Imperial and local law. These treaties are often very similar, but can on occasions vary a lot (For instance, a powerful pocket empire that joined the Imperium very early might have an unusual degree of autonomy). For some crimes and some places local law has sole jurisdiction, for some crimes there is concurrent jurisdiction, and for some crimes the Imperium has sole jurisdiction.

Imperial rule is then split into at least two levels: Imperial law and duchy law, making for a de fascto tripartite system. The relationship between Imperial law and duchy law is best thought as similar to the relationship between the US Federal and state governments. The emperor can issue a detailed edict that applies throughout the Imperium. Or he can issue a general edict that requires the duchies to enact legislation on a subject, but modified to take local conditions into acconut. Or a subsector duke can enact laws of his own, as long as they don't conplict with the Imperial rules.

Note that when individuals speak of Imperial law, they are often actually referring to Duchy law.


Hans

 

[Elliot]

I have to say that I agree with your interpretation (I have problems with the membership treaty idea - it sounds too noble a thing for the Imperium with its pacified worlds and assination squads)- an Imperial edict is not like a statute of a state, say like English Sale of Goods Act, rather its like an EU directive - it is a set of laws that are to be implemented in each domain/sector/subsector according to the general system of law of the domain, etc.

What happens if the edict is not implemented? Does the edict become directly effective against the archduke/duke who has not implemented it?

 

[sadismo]

Since the nobles hold their patents of nobility at the Emperor's pleasure (even the sector Dukes and Arch-Dukes), it would make sense that they would more or less follow the party line with reference to important edicts of the Emperor. In an empire so huge and diverse, I think it would be reasonable to argue that any Empire-wide Imperial edict would usually only be issued if it addressed a very serious subject/concern which affected more than one sector or Domain.

I agree that each sector would essentially have a Duke or Arch-Duke as the defacto viceroy, and he/she would rule and administer that fief with little to no interference from the Emperor. As far as planetary governments are concerned, I believe that each planet would be free to rule itself with little to no interference from high nobles (ie subsector or sector Dukes). I see Imperial authority as being imposed like a form of Confederation (like Canada), where planets and subsectors and sectors are like self-ruled provinces and municipalities. The only time the Empire (or Federal gov't) would intervene or demand oversight would be in cases that directly affected the Imperial purview, ie defense, territorial (or even some trade) negotiations between member and non-member worlds, taxes, foreign policy, etc.

If a local sector or subsector noble had any difficulties with certain facets of the Imperial Edict, or Imperial law, there would be an appeal system where he/she could raise their concerns to the local Moot for modifications or exemptions to be granted based on pre-existing treaties, or local customs or religious practises. This in turn could percolate back up the chain to the Emperor and the Imperial Moot to make a final ruling on.

My 2 shekels.

 

[flykiller]

these are all very nice high-level discussions, but they're avoiding the brass tacks. who controls the starports? who supplies the workers? who builds the ships? from where do the nobles get their power? imperial edicts are likely to try to authorize and coopt existing power, not to bestow it.

the imperial government seems thin at best, and in fact this is how it is described in book 4 when it talks about "the golden age of the mercenary" and refers to the imperium barely being able to keep a lid on the political and military turmoil percolating everywhere. "don't use nukes or the imperial navy will intervene" doesn't speak to a strong imperial presence or a cohesive nobility.

 

[kaladorn]

That's a good theory. But the Canadian Federal Government intrudes on a lot of areas. Over time, large bureaucracies grow more invasive, it is there nature to want to grow and extend their control. (Note, I live right there, I see it on a daily basis).

I can't see most things making it back to the Emperor.

Further, the Emperor, by way of vassals he trusts, chose Fred Q. Knight to be his representative. (Or John Q. Baron, or Peter Q. Marquis, etc). They are empowered to act in the interests of the Empire and the Emperor (moreso the latter, I suspect, knowing politics) and in their own interests and that of their ruled or administered territory.

This means that, in a very real sense, each of these nobles *is* his own little Emperor, until the decision can be reviewed on high.

I don't suspect that you'll often see them overrule or declare an exception to an Imperial Edict, and they'd expect to be called on the carpet by their boss, and he by his, etc. and that never gets you in good with your boss to have his ass in a sling with his boss, but they do probably have the authority to do so.

Man on the scene and all that. This is part of the Imperial system - the trust reposed in qualified individuals to make judgements at scene. Failure to allow this results in what happened to the Vilani when the Terrans first showed up (unresponsive bureaucracy gets overrun).

 

[Elliot]

Flykiller - I agree with you that Imperial law rests on shaky and flimsy grounds - however, the trouble, as always, is making sense of Traveller canon.

On one hand we have the 'men not laws' credo and on the other we have things like the edict guaranteeing all sophonts rights, the good war/ bad war dichotomy, Imperial high treason, the Interstellar Commercial Code, the Starport Authority handbook - all these things come from canon and they all imply that the Imperium has a developed system of law of somesort.

The military/sociological background of GDW staff focused in the JTAS articles on High Crimes (after all a campaign based on the fine points of the law of interstellar carriage of good is not going to go very far, but one based on murder is!). But it is not stretching things too far to expect that there are at least locals legal codes dealing with the carriage of goods by starships (yawn).

As stated above - to have a system of law you need a system of enforcement. To have High Imperial Crime, you need a juridicial system to try those crimes (even if it is not trial by judge and jury, but by sector Duke reviewing the file or even by the local baron). In order to have 'treason' or 'murder' you need a legal definition of the crime and a judiciary/magistrate to interepret whether the crime accused is actually treason or murder within the legal definition (for example Lord Chief Justice Coke defined murder as being where the accused 'caused death by unlawful homicide with the intention killing or committing a grevious bodily harm and where the death occured within a year and a day' -that definition provided a good few centuries of legal decision and interpretation - I would say the same is true in Traveller).

Likewise, what is the interpretation of good war/ bad war? When a 0.25 kt low fall-out battlefield nuke goes off or when a city is hit by by a 100 mt airburst? It may be a duke or an admiral sitting in a judicial role who decides that the Imperium must intervene, but even the law of war needs a person with judicial function to define when that law has been broken.

In my view the Imperium is rather like medieval England - the local baron enforced the law of the manor but High Crimes or big money disputes waited for the quarter sessions and the circuit judge to come to the locality. But that is what this discussion is about!

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by flykiller:
These are all very nice high-level discussions, but they're avoiding the brass tacks. who controls the starports?

One starport on each world is run by the Starport Authority, an Imperial civilian agency of the same size and scope as the Army, Navy, Marines, and Scouts.

...who supplies the workers? who builds the ships?

Most Imperial ships are built by civilian shipyards.

From where do the nobles get their power?

What nobles? The sector dukes can call upon the regular Imperial forces (Or they could until Strephon began to re-empower the archdukes). The subsector dukes can call upon the duchy forces. Lesser nobles can call upon whatever forces someone higher up in the system has given them authority over, which would vary from duchy to duchy and from world to world..


Hans

 

[kaladorn]

I figure you have your government in the form of High Nobles + the Imperial Bureaucracy (the various bureaus and agencies, including the Imperial Forces, the Starport Authority, Imp Min of Justice, etc). That covers your decision making and implementing.

But since there are some Imperium wide laws, there must also be a mechanism for how these were created and how they are arbitrated/judged. Some were probably not imposed from on high, but generalized from below (for instance, Imperial Cargo Handling rules were probably a treatied synthesis of a lot of smaller pre-existing rules on shipping by various smaller pre-Imperial polities). Some were (like the sophont rights thing) imposed from on high, but may or may not be well enforced.

There have to be courts, and it is wise that those involved not be that court (Military Officers sometimes have to be a Court for their own actions, but then they try to find uninvolved officers and the procedures are fairly strict - and there is a JAG Corps). So there must be some Imperial Justices who judge if things are actually Imperial Crimes and if people really are guilty of them.

The Imperial Law enforcement agencies probably cooperate extensively with local agencies. Now, in some cases, they may try to work around them (obstructionist localities) or just have the planet marked and Amber or Red zone until they start respecting Imperial Law.

Imperial Law would have as fundamental principles
- maintenance of the Imperial system
- maintenance of stability
- maintenance of trade and hence tax base
- protection of Imperial citizens as part of
the prior 3

I don't claim it as an ideological high point - I'm not so naive as to think Empires work on concerns about the common man. But protecting the Imperial Citizen and the rights of the Imperial Noble will be important in the maintenance of stability (as will coming down hard on Nobles who abuse their powers, or military folks who do). Maintaining stability means trade, prosperity, and revenue for the Empire.

The Empire's hands off view is pragmatic (keeps them out of much local politicking) and also ideological (your business, you live how you see fit, up until you decide to cross space and interfere or interact with others). It serves to limit what they have to police (spaces, not land areas, as a rule) and to allow freedom where it is beneficial (read: cheaper) to the Empire to do so (and it keeps the peons mostly happy to have illusions of Freedom).