Imperial Citizens

[McPerth]

This is a splinter thread from this other thread

According MT Refree’s Companion (and other sources, IIRC):

In the 17^th year of the Imperium, Cleon Zhunastu declared “any sentient life form within the Imperial borders, regardless of its origin, is a protected being, and thus a citizen of the Third Imperium”

But what does being a citizen of the Third Imperium mean? And what the words “within the Imperial borders, regardless of its origin”?

In our RL western world, being a citizen means (at least theoretically[sup[1[/sup]) having some rights (active/passive suffrage, equality before law, freedom of movement, serving on its armed forces, and in general protection by the state). Many of those don’t apply to the third Imperium, whose rulers are not elected, freedom from movement (and many other rights, in fact) may be restricted in many worlds, etc. And it’s not clear if non-imperials may serve the Imperial forces….

OTOH, depending on how the exact wording is interpreted, even a Zhodani or Solomani crossing the Imperium would be considered Imperial Citizen while inside the borders…

So, what do the words Imperial Citizen mean in Third Imperium?


Note 1: please, let’s not discuss the differences on theory and practice in RL that may lead to political discussions, least this thread might be moved to the Pit.

 

[Condottiere]

1. What you have to do to get it.

2. What do you get out of it.

3. What do you have to do to keep it.

 

[mike wightman]

Cleon's pronouncement must be taken in context. In its 17th year the Imperium wasn't very big, so his pronouncement is a bit of a PR exercise.
It doesn't stand up to a literal interpretation either.
Finally something may have been lost in translation.

 

[McPerth]

Cleon's ⌧ouncement must be taken in context. In its 17th year the Imperium wasn't very big, so his ⌧ouncement is a bit of a PR exercise.

And yet it is quoted several times in Traveller material (mostly to state robots may not be citizens, as they are not life forms), nd always treated as if this statement is hard law (as are Imperial edicts in 3I)

It doesn't stand up to a literal interpretation either.

The part of life form is taken literally always, so why not the rest? Taking literally only a part while claiming the rest must not is kind of cheating, isn't it?

Finally something may have been lost in translation

We cannot rule out this possibility...

 

[McPerth]

1. What you have to do to get it.

2. What do you get out of it.

3. What do you have to do to keep it.

Yes, those are some of the key questions...

 

[bookwyrm]

Just from what I see in the OP...
1. Any Sentient Being within the borders of the 3I is protected as a Being and is thus protected by the Laws of the 3I as if they are a Citizen of the 3I.
2. Any Protected Sentient Being who breaks the laws of the 3I while within the borders of the 3I will suffer the consequences of the law as a Citizen of the 3I.
3. It doesn't look like the origin of a Sentient Being is a consideration for being Protected as a Citizen of the 3I.
4. The real question is, if you go outside the borders of the 3I, are you now unprotected by the 3I as a Protected Sentient Citizen Being?

From post #2, here are some possible answers.

1. Be within the borders of the 3I.
2. Protection as a Being by the laws of the 3I.
3. Go outside the borders of the 3I?

 

[Krikkitone]

“within the 3I” may only apply to residency. However, the only benefit to being a citizen of the 3I (afaik) is that it is illegal to make you a chattel slave in the 3I. So I could see that applying to tourists and ambassadors

 

[mike wightman]

The Imperium may be keen to recognise its population as citizens, but their rights are sadly lacking.
Imprisonment without trial - check
Kidnapping and enslavement - check
Politically motivated disappearances - check
Whole worlds interdicted for spurious reasons - check
Planets allowed to run religious dictatorships and indulge in people trafficking and sex slavery - check

If I dug deeper I could find more examples of Imperial citizens having very few of the rights we would take as granted.

 

[Condottiere]

Citizens are subject to direct taxation.

And conscription.

 

[McPerth]

First of all, a statement: this is quite a complex theme, and, as I already said in the other thread, I don’t believe there’s a hard, canon supported, answer to Imperial Citizenry. So, expect from me more reflections and questions than answers, and probably some of my posts may be contradictory, as I feel 3I canon about it is contradictory too.

The Imperium may be keen to recognise its population as citizens, but their rights are sadly lacking.

Well, I wouldn’t say their rights are lacking, though rarely enforced and difficult to claim

Imprisonment without trial - check
Kidnapping and enslavement - check
Politically motivated disappearances - check
Whole worlds interdicted for spurious reasons - check
Planets allowed to run religious dictatorships and indulge in people trafficking and sex slavery - check

If I dug deeper I could find more examples of Imperial citizens having very few of the rights we would take as granted.

Sure, and of course no RL state has ever done anything like this, despite being against citizen’s rights, do they?

I guess all of us can think without any effort about many citizens’ rights violations, but this would put this thread to the pit, so I will give no example…

This aside, of course Traveller shows us worlds where rights are a “relative word”, to say the least. Most people in the 3I live under authoritarian (were not outright oppressive) regimes, without little (if any) possibility to reach Imperial authorities to ask for protection, and this does not fully match (again, to say the least) with this “protected beings, and thus citizens of the Third Imperium”…

But then there’s another clear statement about the Third Imperium: The Imperium rules the space among stars, not the planets themselves.

So, what does it mean “inside the Imperial borders”? Does it include the planet surfaces (orbits included) that are outside Imperial ruling?

 

[Condottiere]

As I recall Roman citizenship from any number of Jesus movies, the Roman authorities weren't allowed to torture you, and you have a right to trial, speedy or otherwise.

 

[Spinward Flow]

But then there’s another clear statement about the Third Imperium: The Imperium rules the space among stars, not the planets themselves.

(from memory) Each star system within the 3I is effectively autonomous "within its jump hex" (for our purposes) at the LOCAL level. The 3I governs what goes on at the interstellar level.

Every star system gets represented in the Moot by nobles (for whatever that's worth) but at the local level, individual worlds/star systems are sovereign. That's how you can get Balkanized (Gov: 7) worlds with multiple factions, some of which support the 3I and some which don't (Feri/Regina is a good example of this, and there are plenty more). In fact, the "there's something going on at Feri" thread traces its origin all the way back to one of the Rumors that PCs could learn about in LBB A1 The Kinunir ... so it's Quite Vintage™.

Further proof of the postulate can be gleaned from the fact that starports are considered to be 3I territory where 3I laws apply ... but as soon as you step outside the starport perimeter, you are subject to local laws (and the 3I takes a back seat). As proof of this assertion, I offer the following from the Travellerwiki article on starports:

Within the Third Imperium, and in numerous client state and independent system near the Imperial borders, starports are run by the Starport Authority, as part of the Ministry of Commerce for the benefit of all member worlds.

In order to facilitate free trade, the Imperium requires the member worlds to grant a space to allow trade to take place. Imperial starports are part of the Imperium and within the starport boundaries, an Extrality (XT) line, Imperial law replaces all planetary law, or lack thereof. On Imperial or friendly worlds a simple fence may indicate the line. On worlds actively hostile to the Imperium, the line may be a heavily patrolled fortress wall. [5]

Each port is run by a port director assigned by the SPA who is given wide latitude to operate the facility as they see fit. The SPA expects the port to be financially independent relying on the port fees collected to cover all the expenses including salaries, maintenance, and any upgrades to the port.

The important point here being that of Extrality ... and that starports have it (and in fact, NEED it, to do what they do).

Extrality necessarily means that there is a demarcation of where local laws "stop" being enforced, and foreign rules apply (and vice-versa). Starports are thus "outposts" of imperial authority on otherwise autonomous worlds.

 

[kilemall]

I read that as in a practical basis you can’t do slavery or piracy in space, the IN or other Imperial entities catch it happening they stop it and prosecute on sight.

What happens on planets the citizenship provisions are not enforced unless they get too egregious.

Like the Imperial Rules of War, they’ll know it when they see it.

 

[McPerth]

I guess most of this discussion about what Imperial citizenship means will depend on the vision one has about Imperial society at large. Mine was described in this old post.

In the other thread (the one from I created this splinter one), Spinward Flow has compared it with EU or US citizenship. I see several interesting points there.

This is different from the US system where you're a citizen of the United States and then the states and territories are under that umbrella.
The EU system goes in the other direction.
So to borrow from and invert the US system, if you're a Citizen of Colorado (as determined by the state of Colorado), that then also makes you a citizen of the United States. That way, the citizenship "flow" happens from the state level (first) up to the federal level (second) ... rather than the reverse of being a being a federal citizen first (all 50 states and territories) with the state level simply along for the ride.

I agree on it, and one way to see it is the passports. As a Spanish citizen, my passport is marked as EU, but issued by the Kingdom of Spain, and if I need some diplomatic help outside Spain (even in other EU countries) I should refer to the Spanish Embassy or Consulate. In other EU countries, I have full citizenry rights except the suffrage ones (and even in this case, I’d have them for municipal or European Parliament elections).

OROH, AFAIK, the US passport is unique, as are its Embassies and consulates, and a US citizen may vote in any state, as long as (s)he is registered there.

In Third Imperium, though, I guess most people see Imperium as something too far away to really influence his life. While theoretically no Imperial citizens may be denied the rights as such, there are some Traveller publications where reaching imperial authorities is nearly impossible in some planets (and not only in interdicted ones).

My take is, again comparing with US (as I know it, I’m not US citizen, so I may be wrong) difference among State and Federal laws. Any crime committed against a Federal person (from a post worker to the POTUS) or in Federal territory is a Federal crime, while most other crimes are not as long as they affect only a single state.

This is (keeping the distances) the way I understand Imperial citizenship works. Any person that is in Imperial service (including Imperial Nobility) is seen as a “full” Imperial citizens, as well as those in “imperial territory” (extrality zones, Imperial bases, Spaceships and the few planets under Imperial jurisdiction, as Depots, etc.) while those that remain in a planet, outside Imperial controlled territory, are theoretically so, but the effect on their life is, at best, limited (if they are even aware of it).

 

[Condottiere]

Extraterritoriality is a step above Federal Land, basically implying a totally different jurisdiction, to the point of being foreign soil.

United Kingdom seems a closer comparison.

 

[whulorigan]

... a US citizen may vote in any state, as long as (s)he is registered there.

A US Citizen must vote within the local voting district of the community in which his/her permannent registered mailing address is located. He/she has a specified polling location, and is not allowed to legally vote anywhere else unless he/she has filed for an exemption to cast an absenetee ballot (which should also automatically invalidate any ballot cast in the person's name at the polling place, should such a ballot be found).

I am in Ward-9 / Division-16 of Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania, which has a specific polling place. I can legally vote nowhere else apart from filing for an exemption as noted above. I can vote in State and local elections for Pennsylvania and Philadelphia offices, respectively, and in Federal elections for Federal offices.

 

[aramis]

The imperial sentient rights I am aware of in canon are:

• freedom from enslavement
• freedom of access to travel
• trial by jury when off homeworld.
• Ability to appeal local courts to the Noble and/or the subsector moot.

Note that, by not restricting the status, spies are subject to charges of treason, rather than espionage. So that Zhodani or Mandannin spy isn't tried as if a foreign agent -- they're tried as a traitor to the Imperium. It's a pretty slick pro-immigrant status, and it eliminates separated processes for the 6 clades - Tourists, Diplomats, Guest Workers, unnaturalized immigrants, naturalized immigrants, and locals
It also implies a lack of ambassadorial access to diplomatic immunity.

 

[aramis]

A US Citizen must vote within the local voting district of the community in which his/her permannent registered mailing address is located. He/she has a specified polling location, and is not allowed to legally vote anywhere else unless he/she has filed for an exemption to cast an absenetee ballot.

I am in Ward-7 / Division-16 of Philadelphia in the State of Pennsylvania, which has a specific polling place. I can legally vote nowhere else apart from filing for an exemption as noted above. I can vote in State and local elections for Pennsylvania and Philadelphia offices, respectively, and in Federal elections for Federal offices.

Different states set different standards. Having worked as a precinct chair in Alaska...

One can vote at any polling location on election day by use of the questioned ballot process. Only races that appear on the ballots for your home precinct will be counted.

One can vote absentee in person at one of several locations 1 to 3 weeks prior to election day; this will prevent being given a ballot at the precinct on election day. If you show up with your absentee ballot at your precinct, once they verify you were issued one, they;'ll let you put it in the box.

One can vote absentee by mail - the request must be received before absentee in person opens. The ballots are mailed to the voter, and may be returned by mail postmarked prior to election day, or returned in person, or taken to your home precinct on election day. Mailed ballots are allowed to take up to 8 days after the election provided the postmark is on or before election day.

Alaska used to be forced public primary; 9th circuit overruled that, and allowed parties to specify separate ticket. Later, it also forced the state to allow separate caucuses rather than participation in the primary for the federal races.

Having relocated to Oregon - there is no polling place. All ballots are sent to voters by mail, and returned by voters' choice of ballot drop boxes at state or local government facilities, or by mail, postmarks must be before 8:00 P.M. on election day.
Moreover, for county elections (and cities within the county), local elections use single transferable vote., rather than first-past-the-post.
I drop my ballots at the County Courthouse or the philomath library. (Note that the library is next door to Philomath Police Department. And the county courthouse is a block away from Corvallis PD. The Alsea drop box is at the Alsea library.)

The ballots arrive a few weeks before election day.

 

[Condottiere]

All politics would be local; the nobility would represent and lobby their districts interests to the dukes, sector or otherwise.

 

[mike wightman]

The imperial sentient rights I am aware of in canon are:

• freedom from enslavement
• freedom of access to travel
• trial by jury when off homeworld.
• Ability to appeal local courts to the Noble and/or the subsector moot.

Note that, by not restricting the status, spies are subject to charges of treason, rather than espionage. So that Zhodani or Mandannin spy isn't tried as if a foreign agent -- they're tried as a traitor to the Imperium. It's a pretty slick pro-immigrant status, and it eliminates separated processes for the 6 clades - Tourists, Diplomats, Guest Workers, unnaturalized immigrants, naturalized immigrants, and locals
It also implies a lack of ambassadorial access to diplomatic immunity.

And there are many canonical examples of each and every one being broken - Kinunir, Research Station Gamma, The Traveller Adventure.