How powerful are T5 dukes?

[rancke]

See that is another thing I disagree with you on, I don't see humans as unchanging over several thousand years. Since you like to drag the real world in (which is both cool and understandable, not trying to be ass {this time }), I have to point out that in the last two centuries or so humans have changed. We used to think that owning other humans was just par for the course, now we have pretty much outlawed this a bad thing the world over. Mostly. So, humans and their cultures do change and sometimes quite quickly, thus assuming that the Far Future humans are the same as 20th Century humans I think is a big mistake.

I guess you are working your way down the posts and answering them as you go along. In a later post I point out that from all the evidence, Imperial humans are just like 20th Century humans.

Apart from that, human cultures differ; human nature doesn't. Some people would consider slavery vile no matter what. Some people would be OK with slavery if only their society allowed it. And in between are a large number of people whose attitude to slavery is shaped by what they've been raised to believe.


Hans

 

[Reban]

I have to point out that in the last two centuries or so humans have changed. We used to think that owning other humans was just par for the course, now we have pretty much outlawed this a bad thing the world over. Mostly.

Bless your heart but there are 12 to 27 Million people still in slavery today

And that's not counting all the new forms of slavery we keep inventing.

 

[ken at sunrise]

Land Grants

Two quick questions:
Do you ever get elevated and skip ranks?

In the rules under land grants what does the second list in number of heses mean. Every rank has the number of hexes twice except Gentlemen. What page is the second list explained on?

 

[Jazzlvraz]

Every rank has the number of hexes twice except Gentlemen. What page is the second list explained on?

I'm going to guess we're looking at another erratum; given that land grants are cumulative, I'll bet that second column's supposed to be a running sum of total hexes.

 

[curmudgeon]

I'm going to guess we're looking at another erratum; given that land grants are cumulative, I'll bet that second column's supposed to be a running sum of total hexes.

As I seem to recall in my readings, the first number is on the person's homeworld, the other number is elsewhere.

 

[Jazzlvraz]

As I seem to recall in my readings, the first number is on the person's homeworld, the other number is elsewhere.

I can see that...in a way. p.50 discusses "Subordinate Additional Territory Grants", but I've not yet come across the reason why Soc A gets one hex, while Soc B+ gets more, other than something like "Soc B is where the progression begins, and Soc A needs to get something, but less than that".

 

[Reban]

Thats a good point. Why should a Soc A Gentleman get a land grant?

Okay historically to be a Gentleman you had to have land, but usually you gained that land by your own means or inherited. Why is the Imperium handing out singular hexes to people who have just come to the notice of the powers that be?

I tend to agree its just because they have to get something less that Soc B, but is there an in game rationale?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

On Gentlemen.

Thats a good point. Why should a Soc A Gentleman get a land grant?

Okay historically to be a Gentleman you had to have land, but usually you gained that land by your own means or inherited. Why is the Imperium handing out singular hexes to people who have just come to the notice of the powers that be?

I tend to agree its just because they have to get something less that Soc B, but is there an in game rationale?

Yeah, the second column is for non-Mainworld Hexes awarded.

Which means that a Gentleman starting the Noble Career receives one non-Mainworld Hex. Also note that a Gentleman or any other Social A+ for that matter only get the goodies if they are actually in the Noble Career, otherwise you are just high Soc Citizen.

 

[BytePro]

...Also note that a Gentleman or any other Social A+ for that matter only get the goodies if they are actually in the Noble Career, otherwise you are just high Soc Citizen.

Noteworthy and not at all surprising.

 

[Jazzlvraz]

...only get the goodies if they are actually in the Noble Career...

Simple solution: tuck in a Term of Noble at the end of every Career. This message brought to you by "why yes, I have met min/maxers" and the letter .

 

[Bloo]

Simple solution: tuck in a Term of Noble at the end of every Career. This message brought to you by "why yes, I have met min/maxers" and the letter .

Similarly: 1st term Scout, 2nd term Rogue. Successful scheme as a scout = scout ship.

 

[Reban]

Yeah, the second column is for non-Mainworld Hexes awarded.

Which means that a Gentleman starting the Noble Career receives one non-Mainworld Hex. Also note that a Gentleman or any other Social A+ for that matter only get the goodies if they are actually in the Noble Career, otherwise you are just high Soc Citizen.

That's a good point, that they "only get the goodies if they are actually in the Noble Career". There are good reasons to to give an important person at the court of the sovereign or Emperor land to "maintain them in a manner befitting their station". In this case its a minimum income of Cr5000.

The problem I still have is that the table on p52 comes under Benchmarks and would indicate that all Nobles receive equivalent Land Grants including that single gift of a non-Mainworld hex for Gentlemen. Of course not everyone with Soc A is a Gentleman.

 

[rancke]

That's a good point, that they "only get the goodies if they are actually in the Noble Career". There are good reasons to to give an important person at the court of the sovereign or Emperor land to "maintain them in a manner befitting their station". In this case its a minimum income of Cr5000.

A very good reason. There is less reason for an important person at the court of the Emperor to be bumming around living a hand to mouth existence. (Purposeful rambling, such as safaris and grand tours is a different matter; but that's not usually what the typical band of adventurers do).

The problem I still have is that the table on p52 comes under Benchmarks and would indicate that all Nobles receive equivalent Land Grants including that single gift of a non-Mainworld hex for Gentlemen. Of course not everyone with Soc A is a Gentleman.

What are they then? I would think that belonging to the social class between the upper middle class and the nobility was the very definition of being a gentleman.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Ah, but you forgot...

That's a good point, that they "only get the goodies if they are actually in the Noble Career". There are good reasons to to give an important person at the court of the sovereign or Emperor land to "maintain them in a manner befitting their station". In this case its a minimum income of Cr5000.

The problem I still have is that the table on p52 comes under Benchmarks and would indicate that all Nobles receive equivalent Land Grants including that single gift of a non-Mainworld hex for Gentlemen. Of course not everyone with Soc A is a Gentleman.

Check the Cost of Living table though where it lists a Rich Person as Soc C. Notice it says "Rich Person", not Noble, so that says to me at least you can be Soc C and still not be a Baron.

 

[rancke]

Check the Cost of Living table though where it lists a Rich Person as Soc C. Notice it says "Rich Person", not Noble, so that says to me at least you can be Soc C and still not be a Baron.

How rich is a Rich Person? How many SOC 12 non-noble Rich Persons are there in a population of 1 billion? How many SOC 12 nobles are there in a population of 1 billion? If the rules don't say, give me your best guess. Assume it's a TL15 population, if that makes a difference.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Do I look like a statistician?

How rich is a Rich Person? How many SOC 12 non-noble Rich Persons are there in a population of 1 billion? How many SOC 12 nobles are there in a population of 1 billion? If the rules don't say, give me your best guess. Assume it's a TL15 population, if that makes a difference.


Hans

How rich, well let me look at page 52. Cr 14,400 according to that page.

Rich people, got me? Don't really care either. But off the top of my head I would say probably a few thousand.

As for Nobs, depends on the TCs now doesn't it? A few though would be my guess.

But again that really isn't important to me or my players. Now if by some crazed set of circumstances it suddenly becomes a plot point, I suppose I might take some time and fiddle with my world, their TCs and such till I have a number. But not once have I ever had a player care enough to ask.

Frankly, if it ain't broke, I don't fix it. And in this case it ain't broke.

 

[djwildstar]

Imperial barons are not the kind of barons that Austen and Dumas wrote about. They are elevated enough to sneer at the most socially prominent person that has ever lived on Earth.

I don't know about sneering at the most socially-prominent person that has ever lived on Earth - at one per roughly 250 million, present-day Earth should have 28 people that would be roughly equivalent to Imperial Barons. Of course, present-day Earth isn't an Imperial world, but a comparison to the present day might give us an idea of what an Imperial Baron is like in more concrete terms.

To put things in present-day terms, an Imperial Baron has some combination of:

• The political power of Vladimir Putin,
• The wealth of Bill Gates,
• The economic power of Mario Draghi,
• The social influence of Oprah Winfrey, or
• The moral authority of the Catholic Pope.

Not every Imperial Baron will have all of these attributes, but all should have at least some of them. For example, while many Barons will be incredibly wealthy, there will be some who are merely well-off; some will have effective political control over a population the size of a present-day nation, while others will prioritize and direct the investment of billions of credits. Some will be so famous, glamorous, and influential that they are followed by paparazz and their choice of clothing will set fashion trends, while others can walk down the street with rarely a second glance.

If you're interested, I compiled my list of the approximately 28 present day "Imperial Barons", from lists compiled by Forbes magazine: the wealthiest people, the most powerful people, and the most influential celebrities. In general, I chose 28 people from those that made the top 10 of each list most often in the last decade or so. The list of "present-day Imperial Barons", in no particular order, is:

Bill Gates (Microsoft)
Vladimir Putin (Russia)
Oprah Winfrey (talk-show host)
Li Ka-shing (Cheung Kong)
Mukesh Ambani (Reliance Industries)
Tiger Woods (athlete)
King Abdullah ben Saud (Saudi Arabia)
Mario Draghi (European Central Bank)
Hu Jintao (China)
Madonna (entertainer)
Ingvar Kamprad (IKEA)
Sam Walton (Wal-Mart)
Barack Obama (USA)
Eike Batista (EBX)
Angela Merkel (Germany)
Warren Buffett (Berkshire Hathaway)
Larry Ellison (Oracle)
Pope Francis (Catholic Church)
Carlos Slim (Telmex, America Movil)
Lakshmi Mittal (Arcelor Mittal)
Ben Bernanke (USA)
Tom Hanks (actor)
Amancio Ortega (Inditex)
Bernard Arnault (LVMH Moet Hennessy)
Steven Spielberg (director)
Prince Al-Waleed (Kingdom Holding Company)
Xi Jinping (China)
David Cameron (UK)
​

 

[rancke]

I don't know about sneering at the most socially-prominent person that has ever lived on Earth - at one per roughly 250 million, present-day Earth should have 28 people that would be roughly equivalent to Imperial Barons.

You are right. Our low technology would, I believe, count against us, but I admit than when I think of Ffearth (Far Future Earth, the hypothetical Imperial world that looks just like contemporary Earth except for the Imperial membership), I do imaging several marquisates and a couple of dozen baronies. I got carried away with my argument.

Of course, present-day Earth isn't an Imperial world, but a comparison to the present day might give us an idea of what an Imperial Baron is like in more concrete terms.

Agreed. The rest of your post is very intertesting and I'll need some time to think it over.


Hans

 

[Reban]

What are they then? I would think that belonging to the social class between the upper middle class and the nobility was the very definition of being a gentleman.

But this is the Noble Rank of Gentleman. I'm not a stuffy conservative but being a Gentleman has little to do with socio-economic class. Gentlemen are pillars of their community, depended upon by all the social orders high and low.

Gentleman as a rank below Knight is like the British system of Squires. Squires were land owners of good standing in their community who had influence with the lower social orders (who often depended on them for work) and the respect of the upper orders (aristocracy). They often served as magistrates or justices of the peace, commissioners of oaths, grand jurors (who had local government functions) and in earlier periods they manned and officered the local yeomanry (combination police and 3rd line military reserves).

Maybe Gentlemen are the first point of contact for Travellers with the Imperium's legal and governmental functions?



Looking at the Cost of Living Table the listed values look like mid points. So we get the following possibly socio-economic profile:

SOC 1,2,3 = Poor
SOC 4,5,6,7,8,9,A = Average
SOC B, C, D = Rich

SOC e+ =super rich?

 

[ken at sunrise]

This may be a little off topic, but how powerful is a count?

I see that he receives a land grant of 61 hexes on the Main World (assuming the grants are cumulative) and another 61 hexes on a non-Main World.

Under "Where" it states Sector. So would their fief be anywhere in the sector where he received his boon?

I'm guessing the 61 hexes do not have to be contiguous but is there any reason for them not to be?

Would a count be an ambassador, governor, etc... For a count to be the ruler/boss of a system I'm guessing that depends on the form of government and of course it would have to be under Imperial Rule.

Is there a norm/standard for Noble power beyond Land Grand in Traveller?

A lot of questions, thanks.