How powerful are T5 dukes?

[Reban]

Under "Where" it states Sector. So would their fief be anywhere in the sector where he received his boon?

This is a good question. Just what does the Where column mean?

Homeworld is self explanatory.

One system, one subsector, one sector, one domain means?

Is it the same subsector/sector/domain as the homeworld? Or can you spread the mainworld hexes out over a number of worlds in one subsector/sector/domain.

For example you can't fit an Archduke's fief of 256 hexes on any world smaller than a Size 6 planet (362). So might a large fief be spread over more than one mainworld in one subsector/sector/domain?

 

[rancke]

What are they then? I would think that belonging to the social class between the upper middle class and the nobility was the very definition of being a gentleman.

But this is the Noble Rank of Gentleman. I'm not a stuffy conservative but being a Gentleman has little to do with socio-economic class. Gentlemen are pillars of their community, depended upon by all the social orders high and low.

Unless you're talking about an Imperial noble rank called 'Imperial gentleman', you're wrong. Back when the term 'gentry' had any meaning (nowadays the term 'elite' seems to have replaced it), there were no such thing as a title called 'gentleman' that wasn't tied to a very specific social class; that between the upper middle class and the nobility.

Gentleman as a rank below Knight is like the British system of Squires. Squires were land owners of good standing in their community who had influence with the lower social orders (who often depended on them for work) and the respect of the upper orders (aristocracy). They often served as magistrates or justices of the peace, commissioners of oaths, grand jurors (who had local government functions) and in earlier periods they manned and officered the local yeomanry (combination police and 3rd line military reserves).

In other words, a class between the upper middle class and the nobility.

Looking at the Cost of Living Table the listed values look like mid points. So we get the following possibly socio-economic profile:

SOC 1,2,3 = Poor
SOC 4,5,6,7,8,9,A = Average
SOC B, C, D = Rich

SOC e+ =super rich?

The point I've been trying to get across is that a high- or ultra-tech world with billions of people will have millions of rich people. So either there are many millions of Imperial citizens who are the social equals of Imperial nobles (in which case being an Imperial noble is no big deal) or being an Imperial noble ought to rank higher on the social ladder than being a mere billionaire.


Hans

 

[Reban]

Unless you're talking about an Imperial noble rank called 'Imperial gentleman', you're wrong. Back when the term 'gentry' had any meaning (nowadays the term 'elite' seems to have replaced it), there were no such thing as a title called 'gentleman' that wasn't tied to a very specific social class; that between the upper middle class and the nobility.

I was.

In other words, a class between the upper middle class and the nobility.

That does quite capture it. Class as a measure of socio-economic niche or wealth is different to the power of the Nobility. You can have all the money in the Galaxy and never be accepted into the clique who decided how the rules are written and who they apply to.

The point I've been trying to get across is that a high- or ultra-tech world with billions of people will have millions of rich people. So either there are many millions of Imperial citizens who are the social equals of Imperial nobles (in which case being an Imperial noble is no big deal) or being an Imperial noble ought to rank higher on the social ladder than being a mere billionaire.

Perhaps then in the Imperium money does not equal power. What use is money when in a dispute between a billionaire and a Noble, the Noble can appeal directly to the Emperor. What if in Traveller terms Nobles are inside the system of government and the rich are outside the system? Perhaps the rich and the Nobles go to all the same parties, buy the same yachts, send their kids to the same schools but in Imperial society there is a glass ceiling you just can't break through unless you have an Imperial title.

Thats the subtle version. A sharper division might be something like the Hindu caste system. You'd have subjects, citizens and nobles. It'd be possible to go up or down the ranks but there would a taboo as to who wields power.

The problem here is that Soc does not tell us anything about the social interaction between titled and non titled sophonts of the same Soc. There are lots of models from Earth history as how it might work but measuring pure ImperialCredit wealth won't tell you how the social strata shake out in a society that values Duty, Honor, and Loyalty (p20).

In my experience ordinary people think of someone with a title as being "different". What that means varies from person to person. Usually it infers respect and sometimes deference. Generally I think that YTU will be influenced by the experience of GMs and Players of social elites, nobilty and government that exists in their own society.

 

[rancke]

I was.

Then please answer my original question:

Of course not everyone with Soc A is a Gentleman.

What are they then?

That is to say, what gives them the same social standing as Imperial gentlemen? And what is the proportion of Imperial gentlemen to non-gentlemen with Social Standing 10?

(Also, just what is an Imperial gentleman?)

That does quite capture it. Class as a measure of socio-economic niche or wealth is different to the power of the Nobility. You can have all the money in the Galaxy and never be accepted into the clique who decided how the rules are written and who they apply to.

That's true. But then you won't have the same social standing as the members of the clique who decide how the rules are written and who they apply to. It's inherent in the term social standing that those who are of the same social standing is of comparable status, power, and priveledge.

Perhaps then in the Imperium money does not equal power. What use is money when in a dispute between a billionaire and a Noble, the Noble can appeal directly to the Emperor. What if in Traveller terms Nobles are inside the system of government and the rich are outside the system?

Then the merely rich are not of the same social standing.

Perhaps the rich and the Nobles go to all the same parties, buy the same yachts, send their kids to the same schools but in Imperial society there is a glass ceiling you just can't break through unless you have an Imperial title.

If there are thousands of nobles and millions of rich people, they won't go to the same parties or send their kids to the same schools. You know how the elite of New York came to be called The 400? Because that's how many the size of Caroline Astor's ballroom allowed her to invite to her parties. If there are thousands of nobles and millions of merely rich, the nobles will go to parties of their own and send their kids to schools of their own.

The problem here is that Soc does not tell us anything about the social interaction between titled and non titled sophonts of the same Soc.

Yes, it does. It tells us that they are of the same social standing, that is to say of comparable status, power, and priveledge.

There are lots of models from Earth history as how it might work but measuring pure ImperialCredit wealth won't tell you how the social strata shake out in a society that values Duty, Honor, and Loyalty (p20).

I never claimed that it did. I'm just answering the people who have suggested that wealth might be enough to get you a social standing of 10 or more that if this is so then wealth is enough to give a person comparable status, power, and priveledge to a noble of the same social standing. That's what the term 'same social standing' implies. If wealth isn't enough to give them comparable status, power, and priveledge to Imperial nobles (which I think is extremely likely), then they won't be of the same social standing. The two conditions are mutually exclusive.


Hans

 

[Reban]

Okay let me explain myself better than I have to this point.


Soc C6 is Social Standing or class of the character from 0 social outcast, to F supreme in their society.

Nobility also C6 is the expected or equivalent noble rank.

I have been referring to Nobles as persons who actually have the Imperial Title that matches what their Soc predicts they should have.

Lets assume we have two characters living within the Imperium who both have C6 = D.

One is an "Extraordinary" individual (he might be an Admiral, an industrial magnate, an heir to a fortune, a religious leader, a beloved chat show host or a writer of children's bedtime stories). He has resources that allow him to maintain a lifestyle Cr1300 a month at minimum. He may or may not be famous.

The second is an Imperial Noble with a title of Marquis bestowed on him by the Emperor either through right of inheritance or by being an Extraordinary individual who comes to the notice of the Imperial government by their actions in support of the Imperium. The title confers certain rights and responsibilities on the individual and resources in the form of a Land Grant and votes in the Imperial Moot.

Both have C6 = D, both have money and the power that comes from wealth. Both might have influence (although this depends on the spheres the move in and is hard to peg to Soc). Only the one with the Title has the force and protection of the law and tradition on his side. Only the one with the Title has, by reason of the title, a place within the government of the Imperium.

To misquote George Orwel: "All C6 =D are created equal, but some are more equal than others".


In trying to answer your original question about what is a person with Soc A if he is not an "Imperial" Gentleman, the chart on p67 says he is a "Middle Upperclass" sophont. A middle upperclass sophont might be a gentleman (with a small g) or he might be an insufferable bore. He might have reached his middle upperclass position from building and industrial empire or from the proceeds of crime or worse, politics. Like the Imperial Gentleman (big G) he is not a Noble, but he's not part of the Imperial aristocracy either. He has not come to the notice of the Emperor as someone with potential to join the ranks of the Imperial Nobility.

An "Imperial" Gentleman is, according to p63, someone with Soc =A who is not a Noble but is a potential member of the nobility and is granted by the Emperor a Land Grant of one hex on any non-mainworld in the Imperium.

I'm making an inference that a Gentleman also gets to call himself "Gentleman" (or Gentle as a suffix) or to use it as a courtesy title. Interestingly with the Land Grant also confers a title (not a noble title) of Lord of or Master of etc.

My original question on this subject was why give a Land Grant to someone with the "mere" title of Gentleman.

I don't know if this will answer your question but I hope it clears up my reading of the material presented in the core book.



EDIT: Corrected Gentleman's Land Grant to being on a Non-Mainworld

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Not quiet.

/snip-and-agree/

An "Imperial" Gentleman is, according to p63, someone with Soc =A who is not a Noble but is a potential member of the nobility and is granted by the Emperor a Land Grant of one hex on any mainworld in the Imperium. /snap/

A Gentleman does not get a Hex on a Mainworld. They get a Hex on a non-Mainworld which is what the second column should (used to) be labeled as.

 

[Reban]

A Gentleman does not get a Hex on a Mainworld. They get a Hex on a non-Mainworld which is what the second column should (used to) be labeled as.

Darn it you are right. But even so why give them that valuable Imperial real-estate?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Why?

Darn it you are right. But even so why give them that valuable Imperial real-estate?

Because even if they get a crappy hex, they still own property and now they are part of the club.

 

[rancke]

Soc C6 is Social Standing or class of the character from 0 social outcast, to F supreme in their society.

Nobility also C6 is the expected or equivalent noble rank.

I have been referring to Nobles as persons who actually have the Imperial Title that matches what their Soc predicts they should have.

Lets assume we have two characters living within the Imperium who both have C6 = D.

What does C6 stand for? The sixth digit in the UPP?

One is an "Extraordinary" individual (he might be an Admiral, an industrial magnate, an heir to a fortune, a religious leader, a beloved chat show host or a writer of children's bedtime stories). He has resources that allow him to maintain a lifestyle Cr1300 a month at minimum. He may or may not be famous.

Cr1300 per month equals Cr15600 per year. This is less than the per capita income of a TL 12 world with no trade classification modifiers to the per capita income (Cr16,000). That is to say, on a TL 12 world, more than half the population can afford such a lifestyle. And a world with billions of inhabitants will have millions of admirals, industrial magnates, religious leaders, chat show hosts, succesful authors, and the hundreds of other professions that are similar in stature, power, and priveledge. They would still be far less important than an interstellar aristocracy.

The second is an Imperial Noble with a title of Marquis bestowed on him by the Emperor either through right of inheritance or by being an Extraordinary individual who comes to the notice of the Imperial government by their actions in support of the Imperium. The title confers certain rights and responsibilities on the individual and resources in the form of a Land Grant and votes in the Imperial Moot.

And there are going to be only a handful of them per world. A lot more than in the pre-T5 OTU, but still only a handful. Which means that they would have a social standing higher than the planetary multitude you described.

To misquote George Orwel: "All C6 =D are created equal, but some are more equal than others".

Orwell's quote applies to a society much different from one where there is an existing acknowledged functioning aristocracy that dominates society. Which, as we know, there is in the Imperium. Orwell shows the new elite (an UNachnowledged upper class) of a society where the old elite has been abolished and makes the point that the non-elite is still very much NOT equal to the new elite, no matter what the buzzwords claim.

In trying to answer your original question about what is a person with Soc A if he is not an "Imperial" Gentleman, the chart on p67 says he is a "Middle Upperclass" sophont.

And if the upper upper class constitute 1% of the population and the middle upper class 2%, a world with a population of one billion will have 20 million people with the same social standing as your Imperial gentlemen and 10 million people with a higher social standing.

It simply does not make sense that your Imperial gentlemen would not be of a much higher social standing than the middle and upper upper classes.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Because even if they get a crappy hex, they still own property and now they are part of the club.

Indeed. And when you select a few hundreds of thousand members of the club out of a pool 450 billion (= 3% of the 15 trillion citizens of the Imperium), the people you select are going to have a much higher social standing than the other 449.9998 billion.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Duh.

Indeed. And when you select a few hundreds of thousand members of the club out of a pool 450 billion (= 3% of the 15 trillion citizens of the Imperium), the people you select are going to have a much higher social standing than the other 449.8 billion.


Hans

Yeah, and so?

Also, why do you only assume 1% of the Pop is upper, upper middle class and that there is only 2% of middle upper class? Perhaps the Imperium has a greater percentage of really rich people compared to Terra now. Maybe there is 5% upper, upper class and people aren't as impressed with wealth as they are here in the 20th Century of the real world. Or perhaps there are even fewer, maybe only 0.5% are upper, upper class.

Not that it really matters, most players I have met really could give two rips about such things, they want to have adventures.

And in answer to your query, yes C6 is the sixth digit of the UPP. Have you even read the rules? I mean that is right there in the chapter on characteristics, or did you not read that either?

 

[Bloo]

Okay let me explain myself better than I have to this point.

Soc C6 is Social Standing or class of the character from 0 social outcast, to F supreme in their society.

Nobility also C6 is the expected or equivalent noble rank.

I have been referring to Nobles as persons who actually have the Imperial Title that matches what their Soc predicts they should have.

This is where some old guys (me) miss things. Thanks for pointing this out.
Page 63 and 67 describe 4 kinds of C6:
- Social Standing (Soc)
- Caste (Cas)
- Charisma (Cha)
- Nobility (Nob?)

I like that. It clears up a lot of stuff. And even more if you add a 5th:
- Imperial Nobility (Imp?)

Thinking out loud: if appropriate to home system, C6 = Nobility (within the system), fully equating to Soc. If anyone receives Knighthood benefit or enters (Imperial) Noble career, C6 becomes Imperial Nobility. (Vargr and other Charisma races might need to track it separately from Imperial Nobility?)

 

[rancke]

Yeah, and so?

I thought that would have been abundantly clear from my argument: There would be no such thing as an Imperial gentleman with the same social standing as a member of the planetary middle upper class. The very act of bestowing an Imperial estate on him would elevate him out of the common muck of the mere middle upper class.

Also, why do you only assume 1% of the Pop is upper, upper middle class and that there is only 2% of middle upper class?

A recent sociological study of Britain showed an upper class ('elite') of 7%. When I had to guesstimate the proportions of upper, middle, and lower members of the elite, I selected 1%, 2%, and 4%. Sure, the figures could be different, but the orders of magnitude would be in the ballpark.

Perhaps the Imperium has a greater percentage of really rich people compared to Terra now.

In absolute terms they most definitely do, since Earth today has a per capita income of a TL 7 world (Cr6000 if I recall the tables correctly) whereas a world with the Imperial average of TL 12 would have a pca of Cr16,000 and a TL 15 would would have one of Cr22,000. In relative terms it would probably be about the same; the income of the various classes would just be that much bigger.

Maybe there is 5% upper, upper class and people aren't as impressed with wealth as they are here in the 20th Century of the real world.

That would make my argument that much more forceful.

Or perhaps there are even fewer, maybe only 0.5% are upper, upper class.

Still the same order of magnitude.

Not that it really matters, most players I have met really could give two rips about such things, they want to have adventures.

If you don't care, why participate in the discussion at all? There are dozens of threads here on CotI about stuff that I don't care about, but I accept that the people who discuss them do care, so I try to leave them alone to have fun in their way while I have fun in my way.

And in answer to your query, yes C6 is the sixth digit of the UPP. Have you even read the rules? I mean that is right there in the chapter on characteristics, or did you not read that either?

How would I have read the rules? They're not for sale yet[*]. Nor am I sure I care enough to want to pay for them. But I DO care about the implications they will have for the OTU that I've known for decades. Until further notice, for the rules I have to rely on the kindness of those who do have them.

[*] I would happily have helped with the playtest, but I wasn't able to get in on it without paying for it, and quite apart from the fact that overseas money transfers are a problem for me, I've never seen the sense in paying someone for the priviledge of helping them. The kickstarter I might have gotten in on if it wasn't for my problems with overseas payments. Then again, I might not.​

Hans

 

[Reban]

What does C6 stand for? The sixth digit in the UPP?

C6 Is the sixth figure in the UPP, C6 can be Social, Caste or Charisma depending upon the sophont and the society they come from. C6 A to F have equivalent Noble titles associated with them. You can find all of this on p67.

Cr1300 per month equals Cr15600 per year. This is less than the per capita income of a TL 12 world with no trade classification modifiers to the per capita income (Cr16,000). That is to say, on a TL 12 world, more than half the population can afford such a lifestyle. And a world with billions of inhabitants will have millions of admirals, industrial magnates, religious leaders, chat show hosts, succesful authors, and the hundreds of other professions that are similar in stature, power, and priveledge. They would still be far less important than an interstellar aristocracy.

100Cr x Soc = The typical monthly cost of support (food, clothes, lodgings and basic entertainment). If you don't have this you'll start slipping down the social ladder into poverty.

Everything else you earn is disposable income, and remember as a Noble each proxy vote you have in the Moot can earn you 100,000Cr per year, and each hex in your Land Grant also brings in an income.

I think (without doing the calculations) that a Knight should come out with an absolute minimum income of 10,000Cr per year based on a Land Grant of two hexes without any Trade Classifications. With some investment that can be upped to 20,000Cr.

And there are going to be only a handful of them per world. A lot more than in the pre-T5 OTU, but still only a handful. Which means that they would have a social standing higher than the planetary multitude you described.

I think you're way too focused on the social standing number rather than who the Noble is. The Noble is the hand and voice of the Imperium on that world. That alone marks him out. I'll grant you this, maybe among the planetary multitude they stand as equals in the day to day life of the planet, but, in Imperial matters they are the ones that count.

Orwell's quote applies to a society much different from one where there is an existing acknowledged functioning aristocracy that dominates society. Which, as we know, there is in the Imperium. Orwell shows the new elite (an UNachnowledged upper class) of a society where the old elite has been abolished and makes the point that the non-elite is still very much NOT equal to the new elite, no matter what the buzzwords claim.

I did start that sentence with the words "To misquote Orwell"..... My point is two characters with UPP xxxxxD are equal in that characteristic but the character xxxxxD WITH the Noble Title wields more power in the society of the Imperium.

And if the upper upper class constitute 1% of the population and the middle upper class 2%, a world with a population of one billion will have 20 million people with the same social standing as your Imperial gentlemen and 10 million people with a higher social standing.

It simply does not make sense that your Imperial gentlemen would not be of a much higher social standing than the middle and upper upper classes.

Out of interest where are you getting these percentage figures for Soc 0 to F on a world? Again you can find the socio-economic equivalent names for Soc ranks on p67.

Yes there will be more important people on the planet. Everyday the News sheets and webcasts will feature stories about your 10million hoi-polloi. But the day the Archduke comes to visit the planet my Imperial Gentleman will be first in line at the Starport to welcome His Grace and present him to the planetary government.

It makes sense because the Imperium is a society with many layers. A planet has a society, a subsector has a society, a sector has a society, a domain has a society and the Imperium as a whole has a society. Soc as a characteristic gives a common base level so you can see how characters moving across these layers interact, it is not a neat little box that you can put someone in as say "You are Soc2 the Dregs of Society and shall never amount to an interesting PC".

 

[Reban]

This is where some old guys (me) miss things. Thanks for pointing this out.
Page 63 and 67 describe 4 kinds of C6:
- Social Standing (Soc)
- Caste (Cas)
- Charisma (Cha)
- Nobility (Nob?)

I like that. It clears up a lot of stuff. And even more if you add a 5th:
- Imperial Nobility (Imp?)

Thinking out loud: if appropriate to home system, C6 = Nobility (within the system), fully equating to Soc. If anyone receives Knighthood benefit or enters (Imperial) Noble career, C6 becomes Imperial Nobility. (Vargr and other Charisma races might need to track it separately from Imperial Nobility?)

No problem Bloo I hope I am contributing something useful.

There is no 5th class for Imperial Nobility. Nobility already refers to the Imperial Nobility. Planets that have a noble class are probably equivalent in Soc to an Imperial Noble but only on their own world. When they travel beyond their world they probably only get courtesy titles, or they also hold Imperial noble Titles which i think is likely.

On Charisma the book says characters with Cha can receive Titles such as knight but it doesn't mean much to them or their peers.

Land Grants that Nobles or Scouts can get confer a NON-Noble title like Lord of the Big River Bend but don't affect Soc.

 

[Reban]

How would I have read the rules? They're not for sale yet[*]. Nor am I sure I care enough to want to pay for them. But I DO care about the implications they will have for the OTU that I've known for decades. Until further notice, for the rules I have to rely on the kindness of those who do have them.

[*] I would happily have helped with the playtest, but I wasn't able to get in on it without paying for it, and quite apart from the fact that overseas money transfers are a problem for me, I've never seen the sense in paying someone for the priviledge of helping them. The kickstarter I might have gotten in on if it wasn't for my problems with overseas payments. Then again, I might not.​

Hans

Really. You don't have the book? So were not working from a common frame of reference [sigh]

On the other hand we have just illustrated the difference between the peerage who shape the rules in the OTU and the masses who end up rebelling :file_21:

 

[rancke]

C6 Is the sixth figure in the UPP, C6 can be Social, Caste or Charisma depending upon the sophont and the society they come from. C6 A to F have equivalent Noble titles associated with them. You can find all of this on p67.

No I can't. I don't have page 67. Or any of the other pages. Hence my occasional questions about definitions.

100Cr x Soc = The typical monthly cost of support (food, clothes, lodgings and basic entertainment). If you don't have this you'll start slipping down the social ladder into poverty.

Indicating that money actually IS pretty important to your social standing. Unlike societies with aristocracies where impoverished Russian nobles were still received in the best households and American mining millionaires weren't.

Everything else you earn is disposable income, and remember as a Noble each proxy vote you have in the Moot can earn you 100,000Cr per year, and each hex in your Land Grant also brings in an income.

I think (without doing the calculations) that a Knight should come out with an absolute minimum income of 10,000Cr per year based on a Land Grant of two hexes without any Trade Classifications. With some investment that can be upped to 20,000Cr.

Which, if that is his only income would still make him poorer than half the population of TL 14 and TL 15 worlds. I'm not sure what you're aiming at here. It doesn't seem to address my chief complaint.

I think you're way too focused on the social standing number rather than who the Noble is. The Noble is the hand and voice of the Imperium on that world. That alone marks him out. I'll grant you this, maybe among the planetary multitude they stand as equals in the day to day life of the planet, but, in Imperial matters they are the ones that count.

No, I'm focused on the discrepancy between the actual social standing number and what I believe the social standing number of those comparatively rare people with the impressive accolade of an actual Imperial gentleman's estate would be compared to the plethora of mere middle upper class people.

I did start that sentence with the words "To misquote Orwell"..... My point is two characters with UPP xxxxxD are equal in that characteristic but the character xxxxxD WITH the Noble Title wields more power in the society of the Imperium.

And my point is that someone who wields more power in the society of the Imperium wouldn't be the same social standing as someone who didn't wield such power. Social standing just doesn't work that way. Especially not in societies with empowered aristocracies.

Out of interest where are you getting these percentage figures for Soc 0 to F on a world? Again you can find the socio-economic equivalent names for Soc ranks on p67.

My figures are a hodge-podge drawn from information about the composition of the British peerage in the 19th and in the 20th Century and various contemporary social studies.

Yes there will be more important people on the planet. Everyday the News sheets and webcasts will feature stories about your 10million hoi-polloi. But the day the Archduke comes to visit the planet my Imperial Gentleman will be first in line at the Starport to welcome His Grace and present him to the planetary government.

Exactly my point. That's one reason why your Imperial gentlemen would be of a higher social standing in the first place.

It makes sense because the Imperium is a society with many layers. A planet has a society, a subsector has a society, a sector has a society, a domain has a society and the Imperium as a whole has a society.

And social standings in all of those interlocking societies will be themselves interlocked. They won't be 100% transitive, but they will be close enough to transitive for the granularity of game rules. Especially since the social standing denoted by C6 must be the social standing of one specific society, namely the Imperial one.

Soc as a characteristic gives a common base level so you can see how characters moving across these layers interact, it is not a neat little box that you can put someone in as say "You are Soc2 the Dregs of Society and shall never amount to an interesting PC".

And yet, that's exactly how social standing has worked in historical societies. "You are a manual laborer and will never be invited to dine with a lower middle class family". "You are a lower middle class shopkeeper and you're expected to bow when the upper middle class proferssional man addresses you." "As a professional man you work for a living and thus belong to the upper middle class. You're good enough to invite to dinner to make up the numbers, but I wouldn't want you to presume to marry my daughter." "You are a mere tradesman and will never be allowed to marry into the nobility no matter how rich you are (Unless you buy a country estate and keep your commercial activities decently concealed, in which case we can begin discussing a settlement)."


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Busted!

I thought that would have been abundantly clear from my argument: There would be no such thing as an Imperial gentleman with the same social standing as a member of the planetary middle upper class. The very act of bestowing an Imperial estate on him would elevate him out of the common muck of the mere middle upper class.

So, what is the big deal, I mean this is like say water is wet. Everyone knows already.

A recent sociological study of Britain showed an upper class ('elite') of 7%. When I had to guesstimate the proportions of upper, middle, and lower members of the elite, I selected 1%, 2%, and 4%. Sure, the figures could be different, but the orders of magnitude would be in the ballpark.

So, in fact a real numbers significantly higher than your number so you made one up that was more to your liking. Okay.

In absolute terms they most definitely do, since Earth today has a per capita income of a TL 7 world (Cr6000 if I recall the tables correctly) whereas a world with the Imperial average of TL 12 would have a pca of Cr16,000 and a TL 15 would would have one of Cr22,000. In relative terms it would probably be about the same; the income of the various classes would just be that much bigger.


That would make my argument that much more forceful.


Still the same order of magnitude.

Not sure about the whole orders of magnitude, me and math stopped dating around high school. So, I will have to trust you on this one

If you don't care, why participate in the discussion at all? There are dozens of threads here on CotI about stuff that I don't care about, but I accept that the people who discuss them do care, so I try to leave them alone to have fun in their way while I have fun in my way.

Because I do care that your crabbing drives people off the site. And if someone doesn't occasional poke you and remind you don't know everything and aren't the world's authority on Traveller, I suspect we will lose even more cool people.

Oh and I too am something of dick and so I see it as fair play. You get to be an arrogant so and so and I can have my fun poking at authority. See works out great.

How would I have read the rules? They're not for sale yet[*]. Nor am I sure I care enough to want to pay for them. But I DO care about the implications they will have for the OTU that I've known for decades. Until further notice, for the rules I have to rely on the kindness of those who do have them.

[*] I would happily have helped with the playtest, but I wasn't able to get in on it without paying for it, and quite apart from the fact that overseas money transfers are a problem for me, I've never seen the sense in paying someone for the priviledge of helping them. The kickstarter I might have gotten in on if it wasn't for my problems with overseas payments. Then again, I might not.​

Hans

And here we get to the meat of the issue, you are talking out ass as you have not even read the rules. *shakes head* That, sir is just plain wrong and pretty sad. Now, if you had a copy of the rules or had helped in the Beta I could take your crabbing, but to bitch about something second hand. Dirty pool, sir, just plain dirty.

And in the end, for crying out loud, it is a bloody game and don't give me that "logical and self consistent" crap either. That just doesn't float when talking about any world. I mean have you seen planet Earth? There isn't a hell of lot of logic or consistency in it, why should game worlds be so perfect when not even the primary model for them is not. It reminds me of that old consultant motto "Best is the enemy of good enough!" and in this case it is at least good enough. Perfect, no, but what is outside the HTU?

Could you at least wait to crab about stuff when you actually know what you are talking about? Might save us a couple of lost members.

To your tiny point, some us did it because it was privilege. And we really love the game and wanted to help craft it and make it better.

When you have positive things to contribute you often have really cool things to say, but man when you are on a rant you are like a rabid bulldog, scary and mean. And you may not think that is how you come off, but it is.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Dangnabbit!

Really. You don't have the book? So were not working from a common frame of reference [sigh]

On the other hand we have just illustrated the difference between the peerage who shape the rules in the OTU and the masses who end up rebelling :file_21:

OOoooo, do I hate you right now.

That was so much better than my angry ranting. Ah, still need to learn more patience, but man it is taking forever.

 

[Reban]

I know my place

For GMs out there who would like to know how to use the Soc characteristic to relate high, middle and low values to each other I present this training video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mURhNIjc-Kw​

:rofl:​