High Guarding again

[AnotherDilbert]

It's a rules construct, nothing more.

Yes, of course it is, just like jump drives and meson guns...

HG is a highly abstract imaginary system describing imaginary technology an imaginary far future. Yet we are still discussing it 45 years later, while later editions are mostly forgotten.

 

[McPerth]

Interposed ships providing ECM, incidental anti-missile fire, and stray sandcaster clouds. Sort of like the difficulty with small-arms fire through a melee, but with more smoke bombs and flashbang grenades in the brawl.

You can't shoot at what you can't see. Not by being invisible, but by distracting you with something more visible.

At 1 ls ≈ 300 000 km range we are not seeing clearly, we are looking at weak sensor blips.
A weaker sensor signal will be masked by a stronger nearby signal.

We’re not talking about physically blocking, but rather sensor ghosts and distracts, which certainly is a real thing.

I don't believe this to be easy (if at all possible) on a 3 D environment (as Spinward Scout says)...

A smoke screen in your line of sight may mask you troops in a 2D environ, but aircrafts will be unobscured, as they work in 3D (unless, of course, the smoke is just over your troops, but that's not what the screening represents, but sandcasters and ECM, more represented (again, as Spinward Scout says) more by the Computer model).

I'm not an expert (to say the least) about sensors, but in a thread about them some years ago, when I defended an SDB hidden in a GG atmosphere would be difficult to detect by sensors due to the larger signature of the GG, I was told even today there are IR sensors able to detect a lit mach against the signature of a steel mill... If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt it), imagine in the future to detect those weaker sensor signals, even when stronger ones are in the way...

How does a submarine sneak into a harbour? By masking their sound signature with the stronger sound signature of a nearby surface ship.

And profiting of the lower state of alertness level in a harbour, against the higher one in the middle of a battle... In this case we're talking about the latter case, when all sensors and crews are at maximum level or alert and readiness.

 

[McPerth]

A bunch of Sloans with barely any armour or screens will not last long as battle line, a breakthrough is likely...

Depending on how strong the enemy is... I guess they can (barely) stand for the single round needed against a similar squadron, not against two of them.

But neither the Nolikians (or Tigris, for what's worth) could probably stand against too higher numbers, while fighers would be (with HG RAW) better in this role, as you must incapacitate them one by one, and you can have very high numbers of them...

 

[kilemall]

But a 200 DTon free trader, with a computer/1, 1-g manoeuvre, and a single laser turret (and thus no agility unless it uses emergency agility - it can move or it can shoot) can hold a battle line until the ability to fire that laser is lost, and 'screen' an arbitrary number of ships of arbitrary tonnage.

It's a rules construct, nothing more.

Eh, I always used a minimum of 1 matching screening like Imperium.

Which HG battle really is, the TCS campaign game where you can design the ship counters down to individual ships.

And you’ll note my version, there would be a negative 1 and the reserve is going to eat flaming PAs not to mention no cover for any formation off to the side. Im not justifying the single ship line mechanics in any way.

 

[Spinward Flow]

That requires that the other side are jolly nice chaps and move away from the non-manoeuvring ship so that you can put it in reserve and 'screen' it from fire. Why should they? At the very least you'd expect some mechanism by which they could contest this movement of the lines.

House Rule stipulation: craft incapable of maneuvering are only able to change which segment of a fleet they're in (battle line, reserve) IF that fleet wins the initiative for that combat round.

That way it's possible to do, but you have to win initiative in order to do it.
Point being that the fleet with the higher initiative is able to "shape" the line of contact in ways that favor themselves ... such as being able to maneuver all the other fleet elements around a craft unable to maneuver so as to "shift" that craft into the reserve "behind" the battle line(s).

Fluid and almost entirely under the control of each side when it comes to their ships.

However ... if opposing fleets are "unequal" in their "control" of the contact zone "shape" of their line of battle ... the deciding factor ought to be the Roll For Initiative ... no?

The screen also has to be in relative position as regards to what it's defending, so if one is in motion, so, too, has to be the other, at the same rate.

Actually, that's wrong (kinda sorta).

If you've got a Near and Far craft, with the Near craft "interposing" itself (blocking) to screen the Far craft ... if the Near craft moves a specific distance (say, 100km for the sake of illustration purposes) then the Far craft is going to need to MOVE MORE DISTANCE in order to remain "behind" the Near Craft.

It's basically a problem of Parallax.

And if you're dealing with a "3 body problem" of an attacker and 2 defenders, in which ALL THREE are moving ... maintaining the necessary "movement matching" to minimize parallax is going to start getting ... kinda stupid ...
Not impossible ... but moving in the direction of "the juice isn't worth the squeeze" type of effort and coordination.

 

[Badenov]

An LBB2 Scout is just the cheapest ship possible with LBB2...
By LBB2 sensors and commo are part of the bridge system.

LBB2'81, p13:
A. The Bridge: All ships must allocate 2% of their tonnage (minimum 20 tons) to basic controls, communications equipment, avionics, scanners, detectors, sensors, and other equipment for proper operation of the ship.

I overgeneralized in use of terms, I apologize, Also, note the one thing missing from the list of what's on the bridge: EW Suite.
So, by this metric, an LBB2 scout, or anything with a small comp, has limited to no EW capability. Makes sense, since it's not expected to fight capital ships who use every trick available to their TL to eke out every advantage they can.

Why? Our current experience is that computers grow. The internet is the revenge of the massive computer:
E.g. CWL1 Data Centre (Newport, Wales, UK), roughly 150 000 Dt, even uses a few EP.
https://brightlio.com/largest-data-centers-in-the-world/

So, 'CWL1 is considered to be one of Europe’s largest data center campuses to meet customer demand from around the world.' (Source: https://vantage-dc.com/data-center-locations/emea/cardiff-united-kingdom/). The ship's computer just needs to meet demand from around the ship, and because of the space needed per person on a ship, the number of users is very small compared to an internet data center. I understand you were saying huge networks require large spaces, but how can a ship's networking needs vary so greatly in size and affect combat capability so much? How can networking, by itself, provide so much combat advantage? So, 'ship's computer provides EW by TL' is my rationalization of how 'Computer' can have such a huge direct effect on combat (in LBB5). Obviously that's my view, not RAW, but it makes good sense to me, and EW is a bit of a blind spot in RAW that is nicely answered by 'Computer'.

 

[mike wightman]

Some thoughts.

Weapon range - the canonical range for High Guard is measured in light seconds, one hex is one light second



Abstract movement - within a certain range lasers and light speed weapons that can score hits at light second ranges can not miss, therefore fleets approach each other and then maintain a range that suits their firing solutions and yet still allows for some "agility based dodging"

First edition High Guard offered a bit more tactical movement to the abstract, and the tue grognard could likely adapt something from Double Star for fleet formation modifiers.

Using only HG 80 then ships abstractly keep their distance from each other as either short or long.

 

[kilemall]

House Rule stipulation: craft incapable of maneuvering are only able to change which segment of a fleet they're in (battle line, reserve) IF that fleet wins the initiative for that combat round.

That way it's possible to do, but you have to win initiative in order to do it.
Point being that the fleet with the higher initiative is able to "shape" the line of contact in ways that favor themselves ... such as being able to maneuver all the other fleet elements around a craft unable to maneuver so as to "shift" that craft into the reserve "behind" the battle line(s).

However ... if opposing fleets are "unequal" in their "control" of the contact zone "shape" of their line of battle ... the deciding factor ought to be the Roll For Initiative ... no?

Actually, that's wrong (kinda sorta).

If you've got a Near and Far craft, with the Near craft "interposing" itself (blocking) to screen the Far craft ... if the Near craft moves a specific distance (say, 100km for the sake of illustration purposes) then the Far craft is going to need to MOVE MORE DISTANCE in order to remain "behind" the Near Craft.

It's basically a problem of Parallax.

And if you're dealing with a "3 body problem" of an attacker and 2 defenders, in which ALL THREE are moving ... maintaining the necessary "movement matching" to minimize parallax is going to start getting ... kinda stupid ...
Not impossible ... but moving in the direction of "the juice isn't worth the squeeze" type of effort and coordination.

As an abstraction, that one is pretty good, I’d use that.

Disagree about the difficulty part, unless one required a very tight ‘blocking’ window along the lines of LoGH shield walls.

Im envisioning 10000 km bubbles of EW influence for 60 degrees, so not impossible to cover, but the line ships definitely are shackled to reserve ship speeds and blocking position, and can be bypassed by other formation positions outside of the 60 degrees.

In the case of split fleets, than relative courses and vee really matters, the fleet wanting to protect a reserve has to thin out their line to cover each threat direction, and an effect similar to the LoGH breaking down the formation line edge occurs.

The aggressive fleet attempting envelopment fire via split formations will itself lose ships and be shackled to their reserve for whatever period. Could be a higher loss rate splitting up if the formations are not/cannot do reserves- the price for shaving away that line and potentially breaking through to the reserve.

 

[kilemall]

I overgeneralized in use of terms, I apologize, Also, note the one thing missing from the list of what's on the bridge: EW Suite.
So, by this metric, an LBB2 scout, or anything with a small comp, has limited to no EW capability. Makes sense, since it's not expected to fight capital ships who use every trick available to their TL to eke out every advantage they can.

So, 'CWL1 is considered to be one of Europe’s largest data center campuses to meet customer demand from around the world.' (Source: https://vantage-dc.com/data-center-locations/emea/cardiff-united-kingdom/). The ship's computer just needs to meet demand from around the ship, and because of the space needed per person on a ship, the number of users is very small compared to an internet data center. I understand you were saying huge networks require large spaces, but how can a ship's networking needs vary so greatly in size and affect combat capability so much? How can networking, by itself, provide so much combat advantage? So, 'ship's computer provides EW by TL' is my rationalization of how 'Computer' can have such a huge direct effect on combat (in LBB5). Obviously that's my view, not RAW, but it makes good sense to me, and EW is a bit of a blind spot in RAW that is nicely answered by 'Computer'.

Im totally onboard with that explanation for theorycrafting. So much so that I have detection range by model number.

 

[kilemall]

Some thoughts.

Weapon range - the canonical range for High Guard is measured in light seconds, one hex is one light second

View attachment 7096

Abstract movement - within a certain range lasers and light speed weapons that can score hits at light second ranges can not miss, therefore fleets approach each other and then maintain a range that suits their firing solutions and yet still allows for some "agility based dodging"

First edition High Guard offered a bit more tactical movement to the abstract, and the tue grognard could likely adapt something from Double Star for fleet formation modifiers.

Using only HG 80 then ships abstractly keep their distance from each other as either short or long.

Thats Mayday range. I keep it to CT miniatures type ranges, and as for close in work I have suicide range, sub 100000 km range means higher hit probability, damage and penetration. Works to allow for banzai charges with drastic consequences.

 

[Rupert]

House Rule stipulation: craft incapable of maneuvering are only able to change which segment of a fleet they're in (battle line, reserve) IF that fleet wins the initiative for that combat round.

That way it's possible to do, but you have to win initiative in order to do it.
Point being that the fleet with the higher initiative is able to "shape" the line of contact in ways that favor themselves ... such as being able to maneuver all the other fleet elements around a craft unable to maneuver so as to "shift" that craft into the reserve "behind" the battle line(s).

However ... if opposing fleets are "unequal" in their "control" of the contact zone "shape" of their line of battle ... the deciding factor ought to be the Roll For Initiative ... no?

Sure, and the initiative roll would be my start-point were I looking to fix this. it'll be a hard roll unless the other side also has ships with no manoeuvre drives left, but that seems fair.

But it's one of many reasons I don't use HG. Of course my chosen substitute (FF&S/TNE/BL/BR) has it's own problems.

 

[Rupert]

Some thoughts.

Weapon range - the canonical range for High Guard is measured in light seconds, one hex is one light second

View attachment 7096

Where's that from? I don't see it in either edition of HG, and it's certainly not from The Traveller Book/LLB'81 1-3, as they use 1000 second turns, and 1 metre on the table = 1 LS with maximum firing range being 3LS (because you can't track a target past that).

Ah, Mayday. Mayday uses 100 minute (6000 second) turns, five times longer than HG's. That makes for very different assumptions about range.

Where-ever it's from, it's inconsistent with the stated turn time of 20 minutes (HG'89, p.36; HG'80, p.38) and accelerations of spaceships. At 6G from a standing start (which needs to be a possible case) in 20 minutes a ship gets no more than 0.144 light seconds. That's why TNE/BL/BR went with 30 minute turns and 0.1LS hexes.

 

[mike wightman]

It is not a question of how far you can move in 1 minute, 20 minutes or 1000 seconds. What matters is how far you can accelerate your ship away from its predicted position for the 2 seconds it takes the lightspeed weapon to cover the distance, at a minimum range
1ls to 5ls you have at best 10 seconds of acceleration to not be there.

At 5ls to 15ls you have up to 30 seconds of acceleration to not be there.