High Guarding again

[mike wightman]

Cite the rule that allows that...

no scuttling of riders

 

[Condottiere]

If a ship with a black globe generator absorbs more damage than its capacitors can handle, the ship automatically explodes, destroying it instantly.

With starships it's organic, the chief engineer or the captain just has to disable the safety protocols and margins.

As regards spacecraft:

Additional capacitors can be purchased at a cost of MCr3 per ton.

 

[mike wightman]

Where is the rule that a ship can allocate power in this way, and not just your house rule...

so now you are building riders with jump capacitors just to house rule scuttling them...

 

[Condottiere]

For a jump drive, you can just allow the power points to accumulate, directly from the power plant, batteries, and/or power sources, without discharging them.

Since the additional capacitors are presumably the same as that of the jump drive, you can plug them in to the power plant, et cetera.

The more expensive option, would be to allow the black globe to allow damage to accumulate, without discharging the capacitors.

 

[Condottiere]

So, the Tigress class has a fifty kilotonne jump drive, with ten kilotonnes of jump capacitors.

Each ton of capacitors absorbs 50 points of damage.

Assuming a power point is equivalent to one point of damage, what would be needed is shunting half a million power points into the jump drive.

Nominally, the Tigress class has a fusion reactor that generates four hundred and forty thousand power points per six minutes.

In theory, two rounds worth would be enough.

 

[mike wightman]

For a jump drive, you can just allow the power points to accumulate, directly from the power plant, batteries, and/or power sources, without discharging them.

There is no rule that says that, this is a house rule.

Out of combat the power plant is still functioning at full output according to the rules as written

Since the additional capacitors are presumably the same as that of the jump drive, you can plug them in to the power plant, et cetera.

show me a design where this is done

The more expensive option, would be to allow the black globe to allow damage to accumulate, without discharging the capacitors.

and if no one is firing on you?

 

[mike wightman]

So, the Tigress class has a fifty kilotonne jump drive, with ten kilotonnes of jump capacitors.

Each ton of capacitors absorbs 50 points of damage.

Assuming a power point is equivalent to one point of damage, what would be needed is shunting half a million power points into the jump drive.

Nominally, the Tigress class has a fusion reactor that generates four hundred and forty thousand power points per six minutes.

In theory, two rounds worth would be enough.

Interesting house rule, but not covered in the rules as written

 

[kilemall]

If you want to scuttle the starship, just overload the jump capacitors.

That’s an option- if you have the power plant and it has enough power to overload the capacitors in time before the scuttle can be stopped by boarders.

My default scuttle assumptions are that militaries plan for scuttling without power being available.

In my alt rules, this is actually valuated. The conversion for EPs are 1 EP = 10 tons of damage. So say a Type S attempts to scuttle. That is jump-2, so 1% of the tonnage, 1 ton so 36 EP and 360 tons of potential destruction.

The way my scuttle works, that would be an internal explosion starting with the tonnage applied to jump drives so those are definitely gone, then the rest applied to two internal explosion table rolls, first applied to the first system it hits, then the rest applied to everything else.

I tend to design these things to be potentially catastrophic but potentially lucky. So if the critical result ship destroyed or hull hit applying 100+ tons of damage comes up, the ship is gone. If not, the jump drive and any two systems are definitely gone but not necessarily the whole thing.

If you prefer the classic black globe destruction rule, stick with that. IMTU a couple of nuke scuttle charges would be employed for something this small. One on the engineering plant, one on the computer, use the smaller nuke warhead from Striker. 1000 tons internal hit each, ship should be unusable and likely gone.

Big problem though is the puny Type A power plant, only chugging out 2EP. Getting to 37EP is going to take 17 turns, and again dependent on working power.

That capacitor workaround may be standard for penny pinching scout services that do not want to be packing nukes on generic mission ships, but for navies that want to be sure, they can’t rely on that option.

 

[Spinward Flow]

That’s an option- if you have the power plant and it has enough power to overload the capacitors in time before the scuttle can be stopped by boarders.

If the action is being done deliberately (onboard), all it takes is 1+ EP stored in the jump capacitors and then "damaging" the capacitor(s) holding that 1+ EP such that the "storage capacity" of the jump capacitors drops below the amount of EP stored. Basically "deliberate damage" to the jump drive/capacitors by personnel onboard ... either in person or by remote(ly controlled) action.

Such destruction by personnel aboard can be achieved using satchel charges or grenades, relatively easily.

If you know (or don't care ...) what you're doing, even slug thrower bullets can suffice ...

 

[Condottiere]

1. If you want to munchkinize it, you could install a ten tonner type alpha jump drive as a secondary, and overload that; estimate two tonnes worth of jump capacitors, and hundred points.

2. If I would introduce a house rule, I'm pretty sure I'd point that out.

3. Black globe rules have been in existence for more than forty years, so I can't have been the first to recognize the implications.

4. Initial reading already clued me in.

5. The jump drive is usually located in the engineering compartment, next to the manoeuvre drive, and power plant: if we modify damage from overcharging the capacitors to more plausible actual damage, the explosion would likely obliterate those, and if confined in an armoured metal box, the force of the explosion will flow through the rest of the hull.

6. If not, destroying the engineering compartment would split the hull in two.

7. If you want to go for nuclear charges, to render the spacecraft unusable, enough for total destruction of engineering and the bridge.

 

[McPerth]

I have no more information than you do: the written rules.

But, unlike me, you have really played it (or so I understand), and probably discussed more than me with other people who also know about them…

There is no order explicitly imposed in the Battle Formation Step:

Right, but, being in the Sequence of play section (and because of this I mentioned it), the order where it is listed marks this sequence, and, unless it’s said it is simultaneous, must be followed.

See that this time, the formation step is listed on a different paragraph and before the Launching and recovering step, and so, as I understand them, this is the order to be followed.

Vessels are ready to engage in combat in the same turn that they are launched.

A sub-craft can engage in combat, i.e. be placed in the battle-line, directly when launched, no mention of in which line mothership is.

So, I would say e.g. a carrier could launch fighters, and be screened by those fighters, in the same round.

Well, that’s one way to see it…

But there’s another: as you first must define your lines and then launch/recover ships, you either put your Tenders (or Carriers)on first line, and so their riders (Fighters) may fight this same round, or you put your Tenders (carriers) in reserve and the subcrafts are also in reserve this round.

Hence the importance of the escorts; while the Sloans of the 154th are out of league, they will probably ve able to keep the line this critical first round, while the Lurenti deploys its subcrafts…

Yes, that is what the rules say. The disabled ship can be in the reserve so it can't be shot at, and still be boarded, even from the reserve.

Not exactly… See the rule (underlining is mine):

Second, it must be separated from protecting friendly ships; this is assumed to occur if, at any point after the ship is disabled, the owning player has the initiative and changes range from short to long (retreating, in effect).

So, once this happens, the ship(s) is (are) no longer part of the fleet (I guess that's what separated from protecting friendly ships means), and so are neither in frontline nor in reserve, but as an individual line each of them (and so, the enemy is able to attack them).

This means that there are times where you must choose among fighting at close range, even if this gives you disadvantage, or witdrawing to long range and abandon your cripples, but this is not unrealistic...

See also that, following this rule to its logic, any ship without functional M-drives should be subjected to the same, even if it has functioning weaponry and/or screens.

 

[McPerth]

Instead, what happens is the battle line MOVES in such a way as to screen/shift the location of the craft lacking a functional maneuver drive into a position which is "out of range" of continuing combat.

But to do so you should close the range, and if the enemy does not withdraw, if would become a melee, but the crippled ship would not be screened...

The abstract rules are what they are, but if you intend to imagine the situation, there are some unrealistic points about this issue (and many other about other issues that will not be named here):

• the reserve must be quite faar to really be out of range of some weapons (as PAs), as it cannot be truly screened to avoit it being fired if not by distance.
• see that any ship with better acceleration could avoid your ship(s) to do so, even if by taking strong risks (the like breakers from age of sail)...
• a ship without a functioning M-drive cannot voluntarily change lines, though situation may change it (e.g. if your fleet is choosing long range, and so moving out of enemy range, it will go to front line from reserve, or be left behind as rules say, OTOH, if you choose short range, as you're closing, there's a chance it will go to reserve, if the enemy tries to keep distance (and so moves back)

 

[McPerth]

My default scuttle assumptions are that militaries plan for scuttling without power being available.

(and all discussion about scuttling)

As I said, scuttling vssurrendering issue is a setting issue, not a rules one. As HG is not setting specific, it has no rules about it (though I assume scuttling a ship is not that difficult, if this is what is expected to do), letting it to setting specific ones.

Example, same planet, diferent settings:

• in the Age of Sail, a crippled ship was expected to surrender, and this was the honorable thing to do. Any officer scuttling its ship to avoid surrender (and most probably losing the whole crew on it) would be seen as acting against the War Rules and Custoums
• in WWII, the opposite was true, and any CO of a ship surrendering it would be seen as a traitor

There is no rule about scuttling in HG, perhaps because it is a tactical game, once a ship is out of the game it's irrelevant.

Not so irrelevant, as this same ship may be put to use against its former comrades, if repaired...

HG, page 43, among the rules for boarding (again, underlinying is mine):

If a boarding attempt succeeds, all sur4ving enemy crew are taken prisoner; the boarding party
becomes a prize crew and may make use of all still-operating ship systems. Additional crew may be transferred to the captured ship, to make repairs, and perhaps even to return it to combat

 

[McPerth]

The thing is, there's no requirement for a ship to be in the same line to be recovered.

Neither are there any rule allowing it... When there are no rules, logic should apply, and reserve and front lines seem to be treated as two separate fleet elements along the whole sequence of play.

If you just use the rules to the letter, not ruling what is not there, Eurisko should not have been allowed to scuttle ships, as there are no rules for it in HG nor in TCS...

 

[Spinward Flow]

the reserve must be quite faar to really be out of range of some weapons (as PAs), as it cannot be truly screened to avoit it being fired if not by distance.

When the ranges for weapons in space needs to be measured in terms of light-seconds ... ALL RANGES need to be "quite far" such that everything turns into "sensor battles" rather than any kind of "look out the window to line up the iron sights" type of affair.

see that any ship with better acceleration could avoid your ship(s) to do so

Breaking Off By Acceleration has explicit rules in LBB5.80 on p39, with additional rules on p41-42 covering the Pursuit Step.

a ship without a functioning M-drive cannot voluntarily change lines

House Rule by @McPerth ... not a matter of RAW.
You're also assuming that engagements are "static locations" that craft zoom around in (like a race track or a fish tank?). The simple fact of the matter is that in space ALL combatants are continuously moving ... even if their acceleration is zero. Space battles are NOT a "stand & deliver" type of engagement. Opponents are not musketmen forming "nice, static, straight lines" arrayed against each other.

Or to put it another way ... a craft without a functioning maneuver drive cannot ITSELF voluntarily change its trajectory ... but THE REST OF THE BATTLE CAN FLOW AROUND IT in such a way as to shift that craft's position relative to the rest of the line of battle.

If you'll forgive the return to the musketman infantry analogy ... what's the difference between 1 man in the line stepping 2 paces backwards compared to every other man in the line (except the 1) stepping 2 paces forwards?
Spoiler alert: there isn't one, with respect to the relative positioning of everyone in that line.

reserve and front lines seem to be treated as two separate fleet elements along the whole sequence of play.

Not ... exactly ...

A better way to think of things is that there are basically 4 ranges in LBB5.80 combat:

1. Short
2. Long (required for Break Off By Acceleration)
3. Reserve (out of range of fire, offense and defense)
4. Departed the Battle (will not return before end of combat)

ALL LBB5.80 combats begin at Long Range for the line of battle formation in Turn 1.

The range band of Reserve is only available if there are 2+ craft involved ... the interceptor(s) and the screened.
Any craft moving into the Departed the Battle range band "stop being relevant" as combatants, because they have fled from the fight.

It's possible for there to be a Breakthrough (LBB5.80, p41) from the line of battle (short or long range) which allows craft in the Reserve to be fired upon (offensively) and those craft in the reserve are only permitted defensive fire (no offense against the Breakthrough).

Now, where this gets interesting is a matter of interpretation (ie. House Rule) ... such that a Breakthrough can ALSO occur for any craft on the line of battle which has had no offensive weapons fired at it!

In other words, if I've got 2 craft on my line of battle and you've only got 1 craft ... if your 1 craft expends ALL of its offensive weaponry on 1 of my 2 craft, the 2nd craft is not "blocked" from breaking through into your reserve.

Such an interpretation would mean that you can't "cheese" your way to using a single small craft fighter to block an entire fleet of big craft.

So a slight reinterpretation of the above text (so, House Rule, not strictly RAW from a Rules Lawyer perspective) would be that any craft which is not offensively fired upon during the "main" combat steps by other craft in the line of battle is free to take advantage of the Breakthrough Step and fire upon craft in the reserve. Point being that craft on the line of battle which are not "engaged by hostiles" are free to maneuver in ways that can breakthrough and attack the reserve ... so better make sure that all of your attackers on the line of battle can engage ALL of the opponents in the enemy line of battle, lest you "let some get away" to trample their way into your reserve range band.

A reinterpretation done this way puts more weight on the notion that when you're outnumbered, being outflanked can become a real risk. If you haven't got the firepower to keep ALL of the craft on the enemy line of battle "busy" with your own line of battle, then enemy craft that are not engaged are able to maneuver freely and Breakthrough into your reserve for a One Sided Turkey Shoot™.

 

[kilemall]

(and all discussion about scuttling)

As I said, scuttling vssurrendering issue is a setting issue, not a rules one. As HG is not setting specific, it has no rules about it (though I assume scuttling a ship is not that difficult, if this is what is expected to do), letting it to setting specific ones.

Example, same planet, diferent settings:

• in the Age of Sail, a crippled ship was expected to surrender, and this was the honorable thing to do. Any officer scuttling its ship to avoid surrender (and most probably losing the whole crew on it) would be seen as acting against the War Rules and Custoums
• in WWII, the opposite was true, and any CO of a ship surrendering it would be seen as a traitor

I expect the combination of the Grand Scuttle undoing the culture plus submarine warfare and AirPower able to find and destroy any capture added up to a change in the gentlemanly surrender.

I don’t dictate that scuttle happens, only rules if that star nation wants to and a clear mechanism that shows jump capicitance is not guaranteed. Also different combinations of charge deployment and control that can make for different tensions in creating premature or stopping intended scuttles.

The objective for me is better RPG not necessarily HG design demolition derby.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

But, unlike me, you have really played it (or so I understand), and probably discussed more than me with other people who also know about them…

Played High Guard, sure, but no formal TCS Tournaments or Campaigns.

Right, but, being in the Sequence of play section (and because of this I mentioned it), the order where it is listed marks this sequence, and, unless it’s said it is simultaneous, must be followed.

See that this time, the formation step is listed on a different paragraph and before the Launching and recovering step, and so, as I understand them, this is the order to be followed.

You are reading things as implied that are just not in the rules.

HG'80, p38:
SEQUENCE OF PLAY
The combat procedure is played in a series of turns or combat rounds. Each combat round is divided into a series of discrete steps, in each of which different actions may be performed. In turn, these steps are performed in a definite sequence (shown on pages 48 and 49). No action may be performed out of sequence. The steps of a turn are repeated and explained in the rules below.

Sequence of actions are not implied, it's explicitly stated:

HG'80,p46-47:
GAME-TURN SEQUENCE
_ 1. Battle Formation Step. Both players determine their line of battle and reserve positions. Craft are launched and recovered.
_ 2. Initiative Determination Step. Dice determine who has the initiative. The player with the initiative is called the attacker for the turn.
_ 3. Range Determination Step. The attacker decides the range for the turn.
_ 4. Pre-Combat Decision Step. Each player decides for each ship
_ _ A. Whether to break off this turn,
_ _ B. Whether to use emergency agility,
_ _ C. If black globe will be on.
_ The defending player announces all such decisions before the attacker.
_ 5. Combat Step. Players arrange their battle lines by size with largest ship first. Attacker then presents his first ship as a target for the combat procedure. Then the defender presents his first ship. Combat continues with players alternating until all ships in both battle lines have been presented as targets. For each ship, the combat procedure is :
...
_ 9. Terminal Step. Planetary bombardment, refuelling, revival of the frozen watch, and other non-battle operations are performed.

Sequence of play cannot be determined by sentence structure or order.
See Step 9: No specific sequence or order is specified or implied.

Hence the importance of the escorts; while the Sloans of the 154th are out of league, they will probably ve able to keep the line this critical first round, while the Lurenti deploys its subcrafts…

The escorts (or sacrificial fighters) are needed when you break off by jump as you load the riders in the battle formation step and jump after combat in the pursuit step.

A bunch of Sloans with barely any armour or screens will not last long as battle line, a breakthrough is likely...

So, once this happens, the ship(s) is (are) no longer part of the fleet (I guess that's what separated from protecting friendly ships means), and so are neither in frontline nor in reserve, but as an individual line each of them (and so, the enemy is able to attack them).

Again you are implying things that are not in the rules.
There is only one battle at a time, and only one battle line and reserve.

You leave the battle by breaking off, forming a separate battle:

HG'80, p41
PURSUIT STEP
Ships breaking off by acceleration must begin at long range; they may break off from the line of battle or the reserve. Ships may break off alone or in groups; a group breaks off at the agility of its slowest ship. Ships breaking off from the reserve (assuming the line of battle has not been broken through) do so as if their agilities were two greater than they are. Enemy ships (from the line of battle or the reserve) may pursue if their agility is at least equal to that of the group breaking off. Each group of pursued and pursuers forms a small battle of its own. No ships ever return to the main battle.

Once you leave the main battle, you can't return.

This means that there are times where you must choose among fighting at close range, even if this gives you disadvantage, or witdrawing to long range and abandon your cripples, but this is not unrealistic...

Yes, the premise of the Boarding rule is reasonable, it falls apart in the specific wording.

See also that, following this rule to its logic, any ship without functional M-drives should be subjected to the same, even if it has functioning weaponry and/or screens.

But then we leave RAW behind, and enter the realm of house rules.

 

[kilemall]

When the ranges for weapons in space needs to be measured in terms of light-seconds ... ALL RANGES need to be "quite far" such that everything turns into "sensor battles" rather than any kind of "look out the window to line up the iron sights" type of affair.

Breaking Off By Acceleration has explicit rules in LBB5.80 on p39, with additional rules on p41-42 covering the Pursuit Step.

House Rule by @McPerth ... not a matter of RAW.
You're also assuming that engagements are "static locations" that craft zoom around in (like a race track or a fish tank?). The simple fact of the matter is that in space ALL combatants are continuously moving ... even if their acceleration is zero. Space battles are NOT a "stand & deliver" type of engagement. Opponents are not musketmen forming "nice, static, straight lines" arrayed against each other.

Or to put it another way ... a craft without a functioning maneuver drive cannot ITSELF voluntarily change its trajectory ... but THE REST OF THE BATTLE CAN FLOW AROUND IT in such a way as to shift that craft's position relative to the rest of the line of battle.

If you'll forgive the return to the musketman infantry analogy ... what's the difference between 1 man in the line stepping 2 paces backwards compared to every other man in the line (except the 1) stepping 2 paces forwards?
Spoiler alert: there isn't one, with respect to the relative positioning of everyone in that line.

Not ... exactly ...

A better way to think of things is that there are basically 4 ranges in LBB5.80 combat:

1. Short
2. Long (required for Break Off By Acceleration)
3. Reserve (out of range of fire, offense and defense)
4. Departed the Battle (will not return before end of combat)

ALL LBB5.80 combats begin at Long Range for the line of battle formation in Turn 1.

The range band of Reserve is only available if there are 2+ craft involved ... the interceptor(s) and the screened.
Any craft moving into the Departed the Battle range band "stop being relevant" as combatants, because they have fled from the fight.

It's possible for there to be a Breakthrough (LBB5.80, p41) from the line of battle (short or long range) which allows craft in the Reserve to be fired upon (offensively) and those craft in the reserve are only permitted defensive fire (no offense against the Breakthrough).

Now, where this gets interesting is a matter of interpretation (ie. House Rule) ... such that a Breakthrough can ALSO occur for any craft on the line of battle which has had no offensive weapons fired at it!

In other words, if I've got 2 craft on my line of battle and you've only got 1 craft ... if your 1 craft expends ALL of its offensive weaponry on 1 of my 2 craft, the 2nd craft is not "blocked" from breaking through into your reserve.

Such an interpretation would mean that you can't "cheese" your way to using a single small craft fighter to block an entire fleet of big craft.

So a slight reinterpretation of the above text (so, House Rule, not strictly RAW from a Rules Lawyer perspective) would be that any craft which is not offensively fired upon during the "main" combat steps by other craft in the line of battle is free to take advantage of the Breakthrough Step and fire upon craft in the reserve. Point being that craft on the line of battle which are not "engaged by hostiles" are free to maneuver in ways that can breakthrough and attack the reserve ... so better make sure that all of your attackers on the line of battle can engage ALL of the opponents in the enemy line of battle, lest you "let some get away" to trample their way into your reserve range band.

A reinterpretation done this way puts more weight on the notion that when you're outnumbered, being outflanked can become a real risk. If you haven't got the firepower to keep ALL of the craft on the enemy line of battle "busy" with your own line of battle, then enemy craft that are not engaged are able to maneuver freely and Breakthrough into your reserve for a One Sided Turkey Shoot™.

For comparison, my maneuver HG version provides for line protecting reserve by adding together model numbers of the line ships into a negative DM for reserve ships immediately behind them to a range of 10000 km, within 60 degrees.

That last bit is key, if a second enemy fleet is on the opposite side of the reserve they can be hit by that formation. A second line has to deploy to cover that angle, thinning out coverage on both flanks. So maybe you have 2 big blobs fighting each other, maybe you have multiple formations shaving that protective line down.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I expect the combination of the Grand Scuttle undoing the culture plus submarine warfare and AirPower able to find and destroy any capture added up to a change in the gentlemanly surrender.

IIRC, it was a matter of treatment of prisoners.

Before the 1864 Geneva convention (or something like that) accepting surrender was voluntary, you could just slaughter a losing side. Surrendering your ship intact was generally a condition for the crew being taken prisoner.

In more modern times accepting prisoners was supposed to be mandatory, so surrendering the ship wasn't a necessary condition.

 

[kilemall]

IIRC, it was a matter of treatment of prisoners.

Before the 1864 Geneva convention (or something like that) accepting surrender was voluntary, you could just slaughter a losing side. Surrendering your ship intact was generally a condition for the crew being taken prisoner.

In more modern times accepting prisoners was supposed to be mandatory, so surrendering the ship wasn't a necessary condition.

Good point.

Surrender culture is a major design choice for refs, both in naval and piracy combat.