High Guarding again

[kilemall]

IMTU I have extensive scuttle rules, there is a tension between value of recoverable hull and the use of crew Right Now in still combat capable ships, the critical hits are disable not destroyed unless the tonnage of the system is exceeded, and maneuver hits are not the primary disabling mechanic after spinal critical.

 

[whartung]

One of the concerns of this and other ship debates is the lack of design for survivability, zero optimization for damage resistance, and intentional use of less efficient weapons.

Most players design ships to the rules since that's how the ships are played. Since most of the rules are tactical, that's why you find the 19999 ton wonders.

Most canon ships are designed for color, which is why they "play" so badly.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

You sure about that ...?

HG'80, p44:
THE FROZEN WATCH
A ship's frozen watch is a reserve pool used to replace crew casualties. If a ship has a frozen watch, it may be revived and used to replace one crew casualty; for instance, a ship which has been reduced to a crew factor of 2 may restore its factor to 3 by reviving the frozen watch. This process takes two turns. Obviously, if the frozen watch has been revived and the ship suffers another crew hit, the frozen watch may not be revived a second time.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

One of the concerns of this and other ship debates is the lack of design for survivability, zero optimization for damage resistance, and intentional use of less efficient weapons.

Optimisation for survivability is the main optimisation; weapons are much simpler with fewer options.

Most canon ships are designed for color, which is why they "play" so badly.

Most canon ships, e.g. CT S9, are designed without any consideration for the rules, giving us silliness such as unarmoured "warships" that explode when facing the enemy, with weapons that can't damage a reasonable warship.

 

[McPerth]

There is no scuttling rule, but, as far as I know, an official ruling that scuttling was allowed for the Eurisko II fleet (not the TL-12 rocks, but the later TL-13 fleet).

The issue about scuttling vs surrendering was already discussed in the thread I told about.

This is more a matter of setting than a matter of rules.

 

[Spinward Flow]

HG'80, p44:
THE FROZEN WATCH
A ship's frozen watch is a reserve pool used to replace crew casualties. If a ship has a frozen watch, it may be revived and used to replace one crew casualty; for instance, a ship which has been reduced to a crew factor of 2 may restore its factor to 3 by reviving the frozen watch. This process takes two turns. Obviously, if the frozen watch has been revived and the ship suffers another crew hit, the frozen watch may not be revived a second time.

So crew lost to damage results/casualties are completely different from (and totally incompatible with) crew "lost" via transfers of crew to other craft.



You STILL sure about that ...?
{even more skeptical look}

 

[Grav_Moped]

So crew lost to damage results/casualties are completely different from (and totally incompatible with) crew "lost" via transfers of crew to other craft.



You STILL sure about that ...?
{even more skeptical look}

Maybe. Engineer-n skill should be fungible, but is it really?

These replacement personnel would be going in "cold" (sorry -- but not all that sorry) to repair and operate unfamiliar and possibly alien ships, instead of the type they were trained with.

This is a "fictional 'real world' consideration" rather than a pen/paper wargame or RPG consideration, though.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So crew lost to damage results/casualties are completely different from (and totally incompatible with) crew "lost" via transfers of crew to other craft.

But, technically, frozen watches can only replace casualties, not be woken to be transferred to another ship.

After the battle where most recovery is done, you can presumably do whatever you want.

HG'80, p44:
THE FROZEN WATCH
A ship's frozen watch is a reserve pool used to replace crew casualties. If a ship has a frozen watch, it may be revived and used to replace one crew casualty; for instance, a ship which has been reduced to a crew factor of 2 may restore its factor to 3 by reviving the frozen watch.

You can of course house rule whatever you want...

 

[Drew]

Wonder if it is time to rerun the Trillion Credit Squadron again?

 

[McPerth]

It's even worse, you recover them before you form the battle-line in the Battle Formation Step.

Are you sure about this?

I concede you better experience in HG combat, but rules, as I understand them, don't seem to say so:

HG80, page 38 (Sequence of Play: Battle Formation Step):

Both players form their ships into two lines each. The first is the line of battle; the second is the reserve. Ships in the line of battle may fire and be fired upon. Ships in the reserve are screened; they may not fire and may not be fired upon unless their defending line of battle is broken (see Breakthrough).

Launch and Recovery: Ships carrying vessels (small craft or big craft) may launch or recover them. A launch facility may launch one vessel each per turn. A launch tube may launch up to forty vessels in a turn. A ship with a dispersed
structure configuration may launch all its vessels in one turn. Recovery of craft is performed at the same rate.

Vessels are ready to engage in combat in the same turn that they are launched.

As launching and Recovery is listed after forming their ships in lines, I understand it comes latter...

A ship can freely move between the Reserve and Battle-line without any requirement of a working M-drive.

Again, sure about this?

While rules don't forbide it, the rules about boarding (page 43) seem to hint it's not possible:

Second, it must be separated from protecting friendly ships; this is assumed to occur if, at any point after the ship is disabled, the owning player has the initiative and changes range from short to long (retreating, in effect).

If you could move a ship without m-drive to the reserve, I guess this would be done even if so increasing the range, while the rules seem to say that if you increase the range, your ships without M-drive are left behind, even if in reserve

I would assume left behind disabled ships would be scuttled.

If so, boarding rules (quoted above) would be IMHO absurd, as those ships would be scuttled, instead of being left to be boarded at any subsequent turn...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I concede you better experience in HG combat, but rules, as I understand them, don't seem to say so:

I have no more information than you do: the written rules.

HG80, page 38 (Sequence of Play: Battle Formation Step):

As launching and Recovery is listed after forming their ships in lines, I understand it comes latter...

HG'80 is explicit, if a specific order is intended it is spelled out, like a wargame:

PRE-COMBAT DECISION STEP
There are several decisions players must make before the firing begins. The defender must make all these decisions before the attacker. ...

COMBAT STEP
In the combat step, all ships in both sides' main battle lines may fire their weapons at any other ships in the enemy battle line. To avoid chaos, this procedure has been ordered. To begin, each player organizes the ships in his or her line of battle in order of size with the largest first. Fire is conducted with one ship at a time as target. First, the attacker (the player with the initiative) puts forward his or her largest ship. The defender may fire at it with any of the batteries of any of his or her ships. He may fire as many or as few batteries as he wants, from any combination of ships. He may even decline to fire at all. After all fire against that ship has been resolved (but remember that damage does not take place until the damage step) the defender puts forward his largest ship and the attacker's ships may fire. This continues with players alternating until all ships have been exposed to fire (but not necessarily fired upon) once. If one player has more ships than the other, the rest are exposed to fire at once after the other player's last ship.

There is no order explicitly imposed in the Battle Formation Step:

BATTLE FORMATION STEP
_ Both players form their ships into two lines each. The first is the line of battle; the second is the reserve. Ships in the line of battle may fire and be fired upon. Ships in the reserve are screened; they may not fire and may not be fired upon unless their defending line of battle is broken (see Breakthrough).
_ Launch and Recovery: Ships carrying vessels (small craft or big craft) may launch or recover them. A launch facility may launch one vessel each per turn. A launch tube may launch up to forty vessels in a turn. A ship with a dispersed structure configuration may launch all its vessels in one turn. Recovery of craft is performed at the same rate.
_ Vessels are ready to engage in combat in the same turn that they are launched.

Both players do this concurrently, and I assume (without support other than it has to work) in secret.
There is no explicit limitation on order or into which line you launch craft, so I guess there is no limitation.

In effect, you have to decide first which vessels are launched or recovered before you can decide if they are in the battle-line or not.

Note that:

_ Vessels are ready to engage in combat in the same turn that they are launched.

A sub-craft can engage in combat, i.e. be placed in the battle-line, directly when launched, no mention of in which line mothership is.

So, I would say e.g. a carrier could launch fighters, and be screened by those fighters, in the same round.


I don't think any limitations are supposed to, or should be, placed on this based on vague hints.

Again, sure about this?

While rules don't forbide it, the rules about boarding (page 43) seem to hint it's not possible:

I just follow procedure:

BATTLE FORMATION STEP
_ Both players form their ships into two lines each. The first is the line of battle; the second is the reserve. Ships in the line of battle may fire and be fired upon. Ships in the reserve are screened; they may not fire and may not be fired upon unless their defending line of battle is broken (see Breakthrough).

There are no explicit limitations, so I assume there are none...

If you could move a ship without m-drive to the reserve, I guess this would be done even if so increasing the range, while the rules seem to say that if you increase the range, your ships without M-drive are left behind, even if in reserve

Yes, that is what the rules say. The disabled ship can be in the reserve so it can't be shot at, and still be boarded, even from the reserve.

HG'80, p43:
At any time thereafter, the ship may be boarded. Any ship capable of maneuver may attempt to board, and may do so from the safety of the reserve.

At least the boarding ship must have a functioning M-drive, as explicitly mentioned.

I can only speculate that it wasn't considered a problem that the enemy could board a ship he couldn't shoot at, as it was already disabled.

If so, boarding rules (quoted above) would be IMHO absurd, as those ships would be scuttled, instead of being left to be boarded at any subsequent turn...

The boarding rules ARE absurd. If the ship was ever disabled (and separated), it can forever be boarded, even if repaired and no longer disabled.

I can only speculate that this is adapted from HG'79, without adjustment for battlefield repairs, new in HG'80.


There is no rule about scuttling in HG, perhaps because it is a tactical game, once a ship is out of the game it's irrelevant.

 

[Rupert]

The thing is, there's no requirement for a ship to be in the same line to be recovered. So a carrier can recover it's crippled riders without ever risking being fired upon as long as there's a combat-capable ship in the battle-line to stop breakthroughs.

Launch and recovery is part of the battle formation step - it doesn't actually say it must be done after the lines are formed, and the statement that "Vessels are ready to engage in combat in the same turn that they are launched" implies otherwise.

So each turn everyone stops shooting, shuffles all their ships around, loads and unloads what they want (subject to the limits of launch and recovery rates), then they all line up and start shooting again. It's all very civilised, with no uncouth outflanking or envelopments, and no shooting past the ships in front even if the ones in the back would be in range.

Yes, I know it's an abstraction. But it's so much of one that fleets built to play to its rules often make no sense outside that context.

 

[Rupert]

The boarding rules ARE absurd. If the ship was ever disabled (and separated), it can forever be boarded, even if repaired and no longer disabled.

I can only speculate that this is adapted from HG'79, without adjustment for battlefield repairs, new in HG'80.

That doesn't follow. It must be disabled. If it's repaired so that it has manoeuvre, or an offensive weapon that works, or a black globe generator it can no longer be boarded.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

That doesn't follow. It must be disabled. If it's repaired so that it has manoeuvre, or an offensive weapon that works, or a black globe generator it can no longer be boarded.

Yes, it must be disabled at some point. It does not have to stay disabled according to the rule:

HG'80, p43:
BOARDING
_ Disabled enemy ships may be captured by boarding. In order for boarding to take place, two conditions must be satisfied.
_ First, the ship to be boarded must be disabled; it must be incapable of maneuvering, all of its offensive weapons must be disabled, and it must not have a working black globe generator.
_ Second, it must be separated from protecting friendly ships; this is assumed to occur if, at any point after the ship is disabled, the owning player has the initiative and changes range from short to long (retreating, in effect).
_ At any time thereafter, the ship may be boarded. Any ship capable of maneuver may attempt to board, and may do so from the safety of the reserve. A boarding party consists of the ship's troops. If the ship has no marines, it will have security troops (consisting of one-third of the ship's service crew section); only marines and troops may board. The entire remaining crew of the disabled ship may defend.

One: It must be disabled.
Two: "at any point after the ship is disabled," it must be separated. Not while still disabled, but "at any point after the ship is disabled"
Three: "At any time thereafter, the ship may be boarded."

That makes perfect sense if battlefield repairs are not possible (HG'79), as disabled ships stay disabled.
It makes no sense if battlefield repairs are possible (HG'80), as disabled ships can be repaired, no longer disabled.


A slight change of any "at any point/time" to "while still disabled" would remove the problem.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

So each turn everyone stops shooting, shuffles all their ships around, loads and unloads what they want (subject to the limits of launch and recovery rates), then they all line up and start shooting again. It's all very civilised, with no uncouth outflanking or envelopments, and no shooting past the ships in front even if the ones in the back would be in range.

As in every turn-based system...

The issue here is the inviolable screened Reserve, something later editions lack, not the turn order.

So, in LBB5 I can screen tenders, hence move them with the fleet without fear, hence riders are strong.
In later editions tenders cannot be screened, so riders are problematic.

 

[Spinward Flow]

A ship can freely move between the Reserve and Battle-line without any requirement of a working M-drive.

Again, sure about this?

Yes, because it's a true statement.
However, the framing of the assertion is a bit confusing.

What actually happens is NOT that a craft lacking a functional maneuver drive "moves" from the battle line to the reserve (implying the craft "mobilizes" itself into the rear).

Instead, what happens is the battle line MOVES in such a way as to screen/shift the location of the craft lacking a functional maneuver drive into a position which is "out of range" of continuing combat.

The error of assumption here is the notion that the line of battle is "static" in any way.
The classic misconception that craft just Form Line like musketmen and blast away at each other is fundamentally fallacious.
18th to 19th century infantry formations are essentially a 2D environment governed by friction (with the ground, mainly) ... while space combat is essentially a 3D environment governed by acceleration in a frictionless (so no drag) environment.

Obviously, it's "better" if a craft can "retire" into the reserve under its own power, but in the absence of that (non-functional maneuver drive) the alternative is to simply ... reshape the line of contact (battle line) in such a way as to "put" the maneuver disabled craft "into" the reserve away from the line of battle. Rather than moving the craft, you "move" the battle line. Everybody else "moves" around the zero acceleration craft.

It's counterintuitive, especially to a "ground bound" sensibility for how things like this ought to be conceptualized, but it's yet another example of the potential fallacies of using Two Dimensional Thinking™ in a fundamentally Three Dimensional Realm.

A better way to think about how the LBB5.80 combat system works is that the "line of battle" IS FLUID ... and that it shifts (at the start of) every combat round ... rather than being something static (and unchanging).



And then there's pulling this kind of stunt ...

 

[kilemall]

The ‘unrealistic’ aspects of HG abstraction and line vs reserve is why I worked up the maneuver game along with the kinetic missile effects and variation in firepower vs. position and accrued velocity.

Along with differences in armor, an implementation of missile supplement velocity damage, multiple spinals possible, particle/energy weapon range degradation, agility/acceleration tradeoffs and the nature of damage itself, it plays out differently.

The ship optimization is different, and hopefully is not so single answer in nature.

Battle riders are still viable but need to be with the main body for proper screening and availability on jump escape, or a relatively high speed guns pass for the riders if too thin a screen.

Initial relative position, course and speed is everything therefore the scouting game is decisive.

Hard decisions about formation assignment and scuttle vs battle repair have to be made as the inevitable maneuver mission kills slow down a main formation to no acceleration and thus unable to choose range, pursue or escape.

Short and long range exist but not so fluid to change them or quite the Imperium game effect.

All this to say one should accept HG for what it is, competitive ship design abstracted into a tournament demolition derby to determine whose designs are best or fleet management in a TCS campaign setting.

If one looks too hard at the abstraction, it won’t bear up and then you have to choose to live with it as is or accept careful changes to taste.

 

[kilemall]

One side note to the above- scuttle rules with options change how scuttles happen, with salutary effects on how automatic and thorough/ruthless they are designed to be.

It conveys the value system of the empire in terms of saving crew vs hurting the enemy. Also, how vulnerable a boarded ship is to stopping a scuttle or conversely how easy a take over of destruct systems could allow a suicidal spec op team to initiate an involuntary scuttle.

 

[mike wightman]

It does not say being disabled is a permanent condition

Being disabled is conditional "it must be incapable of maneuvering, all of its offensive weapons must be disabled, and it must not have a working black globe generator."

Once any system in the above list is repaired the ship is no longer disabled so loses that condition and may no longer be subject to boarding.

 

[Condottiere]

If you want to scuttle the starship, just overload the jump capacitors.