Only a game.
gurps aliens
- Thread starter neil
- Start date
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MT++:
I saw a few mistakes in BTC (world populations, minor typos) but that doesn't make it any less of a good supplement. [...] if I hated a book for typos or minor breeches of canon, I would have to get out of Traveller completely[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nobody is carping about typos (well, I'm not, anyway) and a few minor breaches of canon wouldn't upset me either (though I would prefer that they be errata'ed). But if all you found in BtC were a few typos and minor breaches of canon, you didn't look very closely.
Hans
I saw a few mistakes in BTC (world populations, minor typos) but that doesn't make it any less of a good supplement. [...] if I hated a book for typos or minor breeches of canon, I would have to get out of Traveller completely[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Nobody is carping about typos (well, I'm not, anyway) and a few minor breaches of canon wouldn't upset me either (though I would prefer that they be errata'ed). But if all you found in BtC were a few typos and minor breaches of canon, you didn't look very closely.
Hans
IMTU, I think I would scrap most of the GURPS & T4 beasties. They were just too Monster Manual-ish. Rather, I would want to see intelligent aliens such as those thought up by DGP or FASA.
Wasn't the first idea of Traveller, not to have aliens in funny rubber suit. It would seem that GT went this way to the extreme. And, T4 just didn't know what it wanted.
Wasn't the first idea of Traveller, not to have aliens in funny rubber suit. It would seem that GT went this way to the extreme. And, T4 just didn't know what it wanted.
Well I quite likes BTC, and as far as the additional races I grabbed Stave for the Traveller Landgrab and detailed the Obeyery without as far as I know violating any official canon. (whether this comes anywhere near the authors intention I don't know) Still more to do. Incidently if someone could do a picture of a bipedal fur covered monitor lizard it would be helpful for my web site.
Supplementing my earlier commentary, I just recieved AR4 and what a load of &^%$! I was quite unhappy with the earlier Alien Races series compared to the GDW/DGP series. Now they resurrected the beasties from JTAS that were just plain stupid in a vain attempt, I guess, so to fill the proverbal cantina of Star Wars ilk.
I can only hope that T20 & T5 do not repeat this blunder mess. I would like see the return of the human dominated universe that would have realistic aliens, not just stand-ins from squid-people, rhino-people, etc.
Traveller as being the pre-emminate SF game ought to set a higher standard for itself, then what was revealed here. Heck even Star Trek is looking better then this &^*#$!
I can only hope that T20 & T5 do not repeat this blunder mess. I would like see the return of the human dominated universe that would have realistic aliens, not just stand-ins from squid-people, rhino-people, etc.
Traveller as being the pre-emminate SF game ought to set a higher standard for itself, then what was revealed here. Heck even Star Trek is looking better then this &^*#$!
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
You were aware that more than half of the races in AR4 have been part of Traveller for at least 10 years, right? The Ael Yael, Bwaps, Girug'kagh, Githiaskio, Hlanssai, Jgd-ll-jagd and Virushi date from the original JTAS, while the Ahetaowa and Hhkar are from the Challenge years. The Shriekers are from Adventure 10, the J'aadje from High Passage, and the Schalli are from TNE.
I will not, on the other hand, defend the Evantha, J'sia, Tezcat, or Valkyrie.
I will not, on the other hand, defend the Evantha, J'sia, Tezcat, or Valkyrie.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GypsyComet:
You were aware that more than half of the races in AR4 have been part of Traveller for at least 10 years, right? The Ael Yael, Bwaps, Girug'kagh, Githiaskio, Hlanssai, Jgd-ll-jagd and Virushi date from the original JTAS, while the Ahetaowa and Hhkar are from the Challenge years. The Shriekers are from Adventure 10, the J'aadje from High Passage, and the Schalli are from TNE.
I will not, on the other hand, defend the Evantha, J'sia, Tezcat, or Valkyrie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup, I did not like them in JTAS either. The whole exercise seemed to be an exercise in creating aliens for the sake of creating aliens.
Look at the Traveller's Digest for thought out alien species or FASA (ok, I did like the J'aadje) and maybe the Schalli (although, the TNE treatment was better).
Chances are when we do find alien life, it is going to be just that alien. Just look at the biodiversity on this planet alone. GURPS & JTAS before it make the assumption that conditions similar to Earth will produce earth-like beings. Maybe a valid assumption in some cases, but, I prefer to believe that the majority of life-sustaining worlds, Out There, are going be very different from Earth. Call me a heretic, but, I believe in the Science in Science Fiction.
You were aware that more than half of the races in AR4 have been part of Traveller for at least 10 years, right? The Ael Yael, Bwaps, Girug'kagh, Githiaskio, Hlanssai, Jgd-ll-jagd and Virushi date from the original JTAS, while the Ahetaowa and Hhkar are from the Challenge years. The Shriekers are from Adventure 10, the J'aadje from High Passage, and the Schalli are from TNE.
I will not, on the other hand, defend the Evantha, J'sia, Tezcat, or Valkyrie.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yup, I did not like them in JTAS either. The whole exercise seemed to be an exercise in creating aliens for the sake of creating aliens.
Look at the Traveller's Digest for thought out alien species or FASA (ok, I did like the J'aadje) and maybe the Schalli (although, the TNE treatment was better).
Chances are when we do find alien life, it is going to be just that alien. Just look at the biodiversity on this planet alone. GURPS & JTAS before it make the assumption that conditions similar to Earth will produce earth-like beings. Maybe a valid assumption in some cases, but, I prefer to believe that the majority of life-sustaining worlds, Out There, are going be very different from Earth. Call me a heretic, but, I believe in the Science in Science Fiction.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MJD:
... or to put it another way...
"Hell, I've got a playtest credit for Rim of Fire"
So what? How many nights did you stay up until 4Am, then go to work at 7, to meet the deadline? How much of the book did you actually write? Get yourself hired to write a book for Traveller (any sort); do it flawlessly; do it in a matter of days. And THEN you can presume to insult people who have done those things.
But please; I don't care how cool your playtest credits are, dood... you're not even playing the same sport, let alone in the ballpark.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is part of the GURPS problem, as well as the T4 problem...
...Forced development in ridiculously short (read as Pulp SciFi Mag publication deadlines or worse), and supposed to include playtest. (And SJG's playtest process is a joke. It's not a playtest, but a public proofread in many cases.)
Anyone who doesn't include adequate research & writing time in a submission prospectus is as guilty as the company which wants things to appear fully done within single-digit weeks of signing.
And with the clear lack of consideration for the extant marches, the overabundance of significant minor races, lack of known extant ones, and other flaws, BTC is proof positive the GT is as non-canonical as Traveller:2300. That the authors accepted the inane schedule SJG put forth is NOT TO THEIR CREDIT. That the "Playtest" was so ludicrous is also telling. I've passed it up in used bookstores because $8 was too much for the content value. At $3, I might pick it up.
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
[This message has been edited by aramis (edited 09 December 2001).]
... or to put it another way...
"Hell, I've got a playtest credit for Rim of Fire"
So what? How many nights did you stay up until 4Am, then go to work at 7, to meet the deadline? How much of the book did you actually write? Get yourself hired to write a book for Traveller (any sort); do it flawlessly; do it in a matter of days. And THEN you can presume to insult people who have done those things.
But please; I don't care how cool your playtest credits are, dood... you're not even playing the same sport, let alone in the ballpark.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is part of the GURPS problem, as well as the T4 problem...
...Forced development in ridiculously short (read as Pulp SciFi Mag publication deadlines or worse), and supposed to include playtest. (And SJG's playtest process is a joke. It's not a playtest, but a public proofread in many cases.)
Anyone who doesn't include adequate research & writing time in a submission prospectus is as guilty as the company which wants things to appear fully done within single-digit weeks of signing.
And with the clear lack of consideration for the extant marches, the overabundance of significant minor races, lack of known extant ones, and other flaws, BTC is proof positive the GT is as non-canonical as Traveller:2300. That the authors accepted the inane schedule SJG put forth is NOT TO THEIR CREDIT. That the "Playtest" was so ludicrous is also telling. I've passed it up in used bookstores because $8 was too much for the content value. At $3, I might pick it up.
------------------
-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
[This message has been edited by aramis (edited 09 December 2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kafka47:
I can only hope that T20 & T5 do not repeat this blunder mess. I would like see the return of the human dominated universe that would have realistic aliens, not just stand-ins from squid-people, rhino-people, etc.
!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Except for perhaps Hivers. What original alien race from the Traveller universe weren't humans in alien suits? The write-ups back then were much better than they are now, but as far as interesting biology (xenobiology?) These were pretty typical (and lifted) alien races.
(I agree with you though that most of the new alien races bite.)
Sherm.
I can only hope that T20 & T5 do not repeat this blunder mess. I would like see the return of the human dominated universe that would have realistic aliens, not just stand-ins from squid-people, rhino-people, etc.
!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Except for perhaps Hivers. What original alien race from the Traveller universe weren't humans in alien suits? The write-ups back then were much better than they are now, but as far as interesting biology (xenobiology?) These were pretty typical (and lifted) alien races.
(I agree with you though that most of the new alien races bite.)
Sherm.
Short deadlines for writing a product are just plain nasty. On the one hand, you don't get to polish the work the way you might like but on the other hand, you can always blame the resultant quality on the product line manager who was pushing you (and subsequently editing/adding to your work)
In my opinion:
1)Playtest SJG style is not a real playtest but rather group editing.
2)GT's aliens have left me cold (please let's not discuss the Tezcat ot Valkyrie) but then again so do the Hlanssi, Hhkar and a few other "classics" as well.
3)The number of alien races in the SM, as a result of BTC, strain credibility for me.
and going in another direction. . .
4)While there are many good plot ideas sown through BTC, the number of revolutions, acts of war and Vargr induced body counts don't gel with my conception of the SM.
But hey, it could just be me.
In my opinion:
1)Playtest SJG style is not a real playtest but rather group editing.
2)GT's aliens have left me cold (please let's not discuss the Tezcat ot Valkyrie) but then again so do the Hlanssi, Hhkar and a few other "classics" as well.
3)The number of alien races in the SM, as a result of BTC, strain credibility for me.
and going in another direction. . .
4)While there are many good plot ideas sown through BTC, the number of revolutions, acts of war and Vargr induced body counts don't gel with my conception of the SM.
But hey, it could just be me.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vargas:
Short deadlines for writing a product are just plain nasty. On the one hand, you don't get to polish the work the way you might like but on the other hand, you can always blame the resultant quality on the product line manager who was pushing you (and subsequently editing/adding to your work)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Editors seldom list their own names on the front covers....
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But hey, it could just be me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, not just you. I agree with all 4 points. Now, a well run playtest should be a bit of a group edit. But not exclusively such an edit. (T20 is getting a good long playtest. Most of us are actually running it in various ways, plus doing the group edit thing.) But SJG seldom leaves playtest materials up long enough for more than a "quickie one-off", and even then seldom whole... at least from everything I've seen over other's shoulders.
------------------
-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Short deadlines for writing a product are just plain nasty. On the one hand, you don't get to polish the work the way you might like but on the other hand, you can always blame the resultant quality on the product line manager who was pushing you (and subsequently editing/adding to your work)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Editors seldom list their own names on the front covers....
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>But hey, it could just be me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, not just you. I agree with all 4 points. Now, a well run playtest should be a bit of a group edit. But not exclusively such an edit. (T20 is getting a good long playtest. Most of us are actually running it in various ways, plus doing the group edit thing.) But SJG seldom leaves playtest materials up long enough for more than a "quickie one-off", and even then seldom whole... at least from everything I've seen over other's shoulders.
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Its clear that like most fans ,you really think that Martin and i had control over play testing.Infact you hand over your draft at a date set by the company and then all you can do is hope you get a chance to correct things.If you think you can do better get writing, but dont sell it to any company as they can do what they want with your perfect first draft. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aramis:
This is part of the GURPS problem, as well as the T4 problem...
...Forced development in ridiculously short (read as Pulp SciFi Mag publication deadlines or worse), and supposed to include playtest. (And SJG's playtest process is a joke. It's not a playtest, but a public proofread in many cases.)
Anyone who doesn't include adequate research & writing time in a submission prospectus is as guilty as the company which wants things to appear fully done within single-digit weeks of signing.
And with the clear lack of consideration for the extant marches, the overabundance of significant minor races, lack of known extant ones, and other flaws, BTC is proof positive the GT is as non-canonical as Traveller:2300. That the authors accepted the inane schedule SJG put forth is NOT TO THEIR CREDIT. That the "Playtest" was so ludicrous is also telling. I've passed it up in used bookstores because $8 was too much for the content value. At $3, I might pick it up.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is part of the GURPS problem, as well as the T4 problem...
...Forced development in ridiculously short (read as Pulp SciFi Mag publication deadlines or worse), and supposed to include playtest. (And SJG's playtest process is a joke. It's not a playtest, but a public proofread in many cases.)
Anyone who doesn't include adequate research & writing time in a submission prospectus is as guilty as the company which wants things to appear fully done within single-digit weeks of signing.
And with the clear lack of consideration for the extant marches, the overabundance of significant minor races, lack of known extant ones, and other flaws, BTC is proof positive the GT is as non-canonical as Traveller:2300. That the authors accepted the inane schedule SJG put forth is NOT TO THEIR CREDIT. That the "Playtest" was so ludicrous is also telling. I've passed it up in used bookstores because $8 was too much for the content value. At $3, I might pick it up.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by neil:
Its clear that like most fans ,you really think that Martin and i had control over play testing.Infact you hand over your draft at a date set by the company and then all you can do is hope you get a chance to correct things.If you think you can do better get writing, but dont sell it to any company as they can do what they want with your perfect first draft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you do buisiness with devils, expect to get burned.
Seriously, Niel, I KNOW you didn't have any control. But you could have found out ahead of time; Martin as well. But, bby being willing to deal with SJG under their "Standard Terms", you actually contribute to those exceptionally bad terms being propigated.
Secondly, No draft is EVER perfect. Nor is any contract. But from the RFP and the dates there in, it was obvious that it was a rush job. If you and Martin had been doing it for your own game, and had it mostly done, it might have been reasonable to accede to such a bad RFP.
Third, an author has the choice of NOT taking a deal that reeks. If no viable bids had been submitted, then SJ and LKW would have had to put forth a better set of circumstances.
Forth: in a market economy, you vote with your feet/dollars. You could have seen the nature of GURPS playtest by reading IO. You could have chosen not to accept a bad contract. You could have put in your proposal a real playtest period and/or a realistic writing period. But, by accepting it, you voted FOR such innane practices.
In short, by cooperating with SJG's extant policies, you've encouraged them to maintain similar practices, and many (unlike you and martin) won't do even a half-*ssed job. The two of you tried something beyond yourselves, and made a credible (but not IMO sale-worthy) attempt, where most would have fallen flat. You took on an impossible task: To do a well researched supplement in a matter of weeks where months would be minimally sufficient. Don't be surprised when people blame you. Or worse - try to emulate you and fail even worse.
(JFR, I've deleted and rewritten some 5 paragraphs on this post. Mostly to avoid poor word choices. And I've considered a few choice words... and rejected most of them.)
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
Its clear that like most fans ,you really think that Martin and i had control over play testing.Infact you hand over your draft at a date set by the company and then all you can do is hope you get a chance to correct things.If you think you can do better get writing, but dont sell it to any company as they can do what they want with your perfect first draft. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you do buisiness with devils, expect to get burned.
Seriously, Niel, I KNOW you didn't have any control. But you could have found out ahead of time; Martin as well. But, bby being willing to deal with SJG under their "Standard Terms", you actually contribute to those exceptionally bad terms being propigated.
Secondly, No draft is EVER perfect. Nor is any contract. But from the RFP and the dates there in, it was obvious that it was a rush job. If you and Martin had been doing it for your own game, and had it mostly done, it might have been reasonable to accede to such a bad RFP.
Third, an author has the choice of NOT taking a deal that reeks. If no viable bids had been submitted, then SJ and LKW would have had to put forth a better set of circumstances.
Forth: in a market economy, you vote with your feet/dollars. You could have seen the nature of GURPS playtest by reading IO. You could have chosen not to accept a bad contract. You could have put in your proposal a real playtest period and/or a realistic writing period. But, by accepting it, you voted FOR such innane practices.
In short, by cooperating with SJG's extant policies, you've encouraged them to maintain similar practices, and many (unlike you and martin) won't do even a half-*ssed job. The two of you tried something beyond yourselves, and made a credible (but not IMO sale-worthy) attempt, where most would have fallen flat. You took on an impossible task: To do a well researched supplement in a matter of weeks where months would be minimally sufficient. Don't be surprised when people blame you. Or worse - try to emulate you and fail even worse.
(JFR, I've deleted and rewritten some 5 paragraphs on this post. Mostly to avoid poor word choices. And I've considered a few choice words... and rejected most of them.)
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
And now, back on topic.
We know of several minors in the marches that needed expansion and GURPS reitteration: Dandies (LLewellolly [sp?]), Eiboken, shaggies, chirpers, and one or two others whose names I forget. Not to mention Daryans, Sword Worlders, and Jonkereen.
But the SM races felt RIGHT in SM, and in the best SM tradition, they were not presented as anything other than "Man in Suit" or "Man with facial appliances" in SM.
In GT, there wasn't enough space left to do a decent write-up. (The original Aslan write-up was about 4 pages, admittedly 5x8. But it was an attempt to make them truly alien by crossing two researchable and/or common knowledge social structures, and blending them.)
In Sci-Fi, any decent alien write up should be at least 8 pages 8x11 per race. With culture, military, physiology, and more. And at least a few new careers/packages/etc.
And on the fantasy front, by comparison, My favorite AD&D2E supplements were the Racial Books (Elves, Gnomes and Halflings, Dwarves, Drow of the Underdark). They compare favorably to the DGP books for quality.
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
We know of several minors in the marches that needed expansion and GURPS reitteration: Dandies (LLewellolly [sp?]), Eiboken, shaggies, chirpers, and one or two others whose names I forget. Not to mention Daryans, Sword Worlders, and Jonkereen.
But the SM races felt RIGHT in SM, and in the best SM tradition, they were not presented as anything other than "Man in Suit" or "Man with facial appliances" in SM.
In GT, there wasn't enough space left to do a decent write-up. (The original Aslan write-up was about 4 pages, admittedly 5x8. But it was an attempt to make them truly alien by crossing two researchable and/or common knowledge social structures, and blending them.)
In Sci-Fi, any decent alien write up should be at least 8 pages 8x11 per race. With culture, military, physiology, and more. And at least a few new careers/packages/etc.
And on the fantasy front, by comparison, My favorite AD&D2E supplements were the Racial Books (Elves, Gnomes and Halflings, Dwarves, Drow of the Underdark). They compare favorably to the DGP books for quality.
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-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!
I am alone here?
I wonder if anyone else out there would favour less aliens. As many of the aliens GT seem to be filler aliens. For me Traveller was essentially about exploring alien cultures. Those cultures were human in form but radically different from what was found in the 20th century or before.
It would seem aliens are simply shorthand for doing this. One of the reasons, that I like Fading Suns milieu is that the great variety of houses, church and merchant factions and subfactions.
I would want to see more emphasis upon alien landscapes in a future version of Traveller something that has been barely touched upon. For all we seem to get variations of Earth. This is something that 2300AD or T2300 did exheedly well and ironically was something that DGP did not.
So let us try to agree that we want to put alien back into the Traveller aliens. But, let us get back to interesting world building...something that I need as I am starting to run out of ideas.
I wonder if anyone else out there would favour less aliens. As many of the aliens GT seem to be filler aliens. For me Traveller was essentially about exploring alien cultures. Those cultures were human in form but radically different from what was found in the 20th century or before.
It would seem aliens are simply shorthand for doing this. One of the reasons, that I like Fading Suns milieu is that the great variety of houses, church and merchant factions and subfactions.
I would want to see more emphasis upon alien landscapes in a future version of Traveller something that has been barely touched upon. For all we seem to get variations of Earth. This is something that 2300AD or T2300 did exheedly well and ironically was something that DGP did not.
So let us try to agree that we want to put alien back into the Traveller aliens. But, let us get back to interesting world building...something that I need as I am starting to run out of ideas.
Basically yes, I don't think Traveller really needs more alien races. Neither does it need mind numbing volumes of detail on those races which already exist. Does that mean we've reached the end of the line for new races? I don't think so, but instead of churning out new ones where the zipper obviously shows, let's save room for one's with a little more thought behind them.
Also, on the subject of accepting or rejecting contracts for products; it's not always so clear cut how a company will treat you, your concepts or your actual draft. I do believe it's only realistic to know that you are not writing for a vanity press (unless it's your company) and that great violence can be done to your work once it leaves your hands. If it's future work you are after (or God forbid an actual career in game writing) you really have no choice but to listen to the editor, get the material in on time and accept however your work gets edited/butchered.
Also, on the subject of accepting or rejecting contracts for products; it's not always so clear cut how a company will treat you, your concepts or your actual draft. I do believe it's only realistic to know that you are not writing for a vanity press (unless it's your company) and that great violence can be done to your work once it leaves your hands. If it's future work you are after (or God forbid an actual career in game writing) you really have no choice but to listen to the editor, get the material in on time and accept however your work gets edited/butchered.
It seems to me that there's a fairly simple way to solve this problem: If you don't like a particular Minor Race, simply declare that it doesn't exist IYTU. There's no reason you should feel that you *have* to use a new race. It's your game, and you should feel free to make any arbitrary ruling you like. As for the new UPPs, if you think they diverge too drastically from canon, just continue using the old ones.
BTW, SJG has been doing a much better job of sticking to canon recently. Don't let a few mistakes turn you off to GT entirely.
Personally, I prefer to use the CT rules, but I often use GT setting material to flesh out my campaign. I find that the GT books provide a level of detail that there simply wasn't space for in the LBBs. When there's something in GT I don't like, I simply ignore it.
I realize this post may sound condescending to some of you, but I felt it should be mentioned all the same. Traveller is an *imaginary* universe, and there's no reason to get so emotional over it.
Thanks for your time.
BTW, SJG has been doing a much better job of sticking to canon recently. Don't let a few mistakes turn you off to GT entirely.
Personally, I prefer to use the CT rules, but I often use GT setting material to flesh out my campaign. I find that the GT books provide a level of detail that there simply wasn't space for in the LBBs. When there's something in GT I don't like, I simply ignore it.
I realize this post may sound condescending to some of you, but I felt it should be mentioned all the same. Traveller is an *imaginary* universe, and there's no reason to get so emotional over it.
Thanks for your time.
I do find it.. amusing... to be beaten about the head with the "you chose to work with SJG" thing.
Would everyone who doesn't know exactly what happened, please SHUT UP?
We took on a book with a pretty decent deadline. What we produced was acually 1/3 longer than BtC, and it was a rather rough "discussion" draft. As the release for the rules slid back and back, the editorial team at SJG decided to put BtC out more ore less on time, which crunched up the whole process. Thus (other than some editing, some cutting and what amounts to emergency surgery MASH style) the BtC draft went out.
Would everyone who doesn't know exactly what happened, please SHUT UP?
We took on a book with a pretty decent deadline. What we produced was acually 1/3 longer than BtC, and it was a rather rough "discussion" draft. As the release for the rules slid back and back, the editorial team at SJG decided to put BtC out more ore less on time, which crunched up the whole process. Thus (other than some editing, some cutting and what amounts to emergency surgery MASH style) the BtC draft went out.
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