gurps aliens

[MJD]

So far as I'm aware, Neil has every piece of canon TRaveller information. My own collection is less complete. Most of the aliens were put in either because a very unlikely world had a high pop, or because we felt that the undeveloped parts of the setting would benefit from some new people to meet - and in my opinion, the Marches are not as developed all that - there are big chunks that have never really been looked at.

Sure, some people aren't going to be impressed. And some just decided to hate the whole GT concept from the start. So you don't like the extra aliens... fine. Given that Neil asked whether people liked them or not, it's only fair that you said you didn't.

I fail to see why that leads to the "you just wanted to get into print so you trampled all over our precious marches" type comments. For your information, I don't write "Kool Warez" (?what?). Most of my published work in in the defence sector. Assymetric warfare, naval weapon systems and so forth. Or there's the fiction and non-fiction books. Or my post as press officer for the British Fencing Centre.

Your opinion is welcome - how else are we to learn what other people think. The insults you can keep.

BTW: I'm not a Miller, Wiseman or Keith. I had noticed that... But none of them was available to write this book and we were. If we left development of canon to them, there would be nothing new. We tried to make the setting a little richer. Our mistake.

And yes, Traveller isn't Star Wars. I had noticed that.

 

[AndreaV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by neil:
I didnt start this topic to see who likes BTC and GURPS BUT TO DISCUSS ALIENS CREATED IN THE SYSTEM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, looking at the new races in BTC (Mewey, Obeyery, Otarri, Saurians, Tashaki, Garoo, Ursty, Tethmari and Viji), I don't think any of them are detailed enough to give a firm opinion on (not a critism, can't give an opinion from three paragraphs). All BTC gives a very brief thumbnail. Any and/or all of them could easily be expanded out or just dropped.

I am a little concerned at the apparent density of minor races in the Spinward Marches (by my count there are now 13 minor aliens and no less than 4 minor humans not including the Sword Worlders). Rim of Fire has just one new minor race and I like the Gurungan and would like to see them stay.

I really don't like David Pulvar's transplanted space master minors in the Alien Races series. Nothing against the races themselves, they just always seemed imperfect fits. The only ones I really like are the Lithkid and Evantha (from AR4).

However, none of the new GURPS races (with the possible exception of the Valkyrie in AR4) do any real damage to the setting so they should probably stay. But the only ones I use are the Gurungan (but thats mainly because I don't set my games where they would be useable).

 

[Elliot]

Dear MJD, sorry as this is a BTC issue, but:

Thanks for the Muodray tip – this is very useful for my campaign (which is derived from the old AD&D slavelords campaign). In my campaign, the slavers come from the Trojan Reach and other parts of the void and are enslaving Chirpers for nefarious psionic researchers(I know: RSGamma).

I can see that a new threat has emerged for the slavers, and a new ally for the players.......

By the way, I like the aliens (Saurians excepted) and especially the Dandies....

 

[MJD]

The Dandies aren't ours, of course. Some bloke called Miller invented them (chuckles).

As an aside, an old JTAS article by Bill Keith talks about adding aliens to a world in addition to humans listed in the UWP or to explain an anomalous population.

I kinda like that philosophy

 

[AndreaV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MJD:
As an aside, an old JTAS article by Bill Keith talks about adding aliens to a world in addition to humans listed in the UWP or to explain an anomalous population.

I kinda like that philosophy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which is fine as long as its not taken to extremes (eg BTC added at least nine new minor alien and three new minor human races to a single sector; perhaps not the best option IMHO).

 

[neil]

Thank you for at last talking about my "best " plot idea in BTC, If you are interested i have campaign notes on Muodray. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elliot:
Dear MJD, sorry as this is a BTC issue, but:

Thanks for the Muodray tip – this is very useful for my campaign (which is derived from the old AD&D slavelords campaign). In my campaign, the slavers come from the Trojan Reach and other parts of the void and are enslaving Chirpers for nefarious psionic researchers(I know: RSGamma).

I can see that a new threat has emerged for the slavers, and a new ally for the players.......

By the way, I like the aliens (Saurians excepted) and especially the Dandies.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[neil]

I dont think that there are to many races in BTC as for example as traveller adventure set in ONE subsector has DANDIES EBOKIN and the human minor race the PAYANS THATS A TOTAL OF THREE.We invented 8 races and described a human race the GAROO.Thats roughly only 0.5 new races per sector, if we had followed the example set by CHADWICK HARSHMAN KEITH MILLER AND WISEMAN the total would be 48 new races.I think traveller is about exploring new cultures but if we only find humans that makes travelling for me a boring exercise. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrewmv:
Which is fine as long as its not taken to extremes (eg BTC added at least nine new minor alien and three new minor human races to a single sector; perhaps not the best option IMHO).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[neil]

I think Martin has said it all, but iwould like to add that i feel very sorry that you find yourself so set i your ways,please try to remember its for FUN.(PS I OWN ALMOST EVERY TRAVELLER BOOK IN OR OUT OF PRINT,AND IF YOU HATE CANON BEING IGNORED do NOT READ ANY OF THE CLASSIC BOOKS BECAUSE THERES SOME REAL STINKERS) <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DonM:
And I'm quite upset at the notion that some people think they can come along and add stuff to an ALREADY established setting, in some cases in direct contradition to established canon.

In my opinion, your attitude as expressed in your reply below shows that you have absolutely no regard for the setting, except a desire to get your own name in print. I'm sorry, but you are NOT Marc Miller, Loren Wiseman and your last name doesn't end in Keith. I don't care how K00L your WAREZ are D00D, but keep your new aliens out of my old sectors. Feel free to add new stuff like that to any unpublished sector. But don't contradict established canon, and don't tell me that planet's a water world in BTC when it was a dry one in SMC without a REAL GOOD explanation.

There. I'm an old Traveller curmudgeon, and proud of it. Hell, I've got a playtest credit for Rim of Fire, and I'll be so bold as to say that RoF shows how a GT sector book can have respect for Traveller's past. I hope all other works by SJGames show that same respect. But BTC does not, and your attitude as an author shows why.


DonM.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[AndreaV]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by neil:
I dont think that there are to many races in BTC as for example as traveller adventure set in ONE subsector has DANDIES EBOKIN and the human minor race the PAYANS THATS A TOTAL OF THREE.We invented 8 races and described a human race the GAROO.Thats roughly only 0.5 new races per sector, if we had followed the example set by CHADWICK HARSHMAN KEITH MILLER AND WISEMAN the total would be 48 new races.I think traveller is about exploring new cultures but if we only find humans that makes travelling for me a boring exercise. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uhmm, may one ask why you ask for critism if you are going to react so hostily when it is negative? You ask for an opinion and I gave one honestly without being insulting.

Also, I did not shout at you, please do not shout at me.

However, to answer a few specific points:

1) The Payans mention in Traveller Adventure are never presented as a MHR, they are simply a variant culture (quite a different thing)

2) Minor Human Races: Not only are there the Garoo, but in the world description text you will find two others (769-422 and Tondoul both in the Five Sisters Subsector). Together with the Garoo and Darian, that makes four (out of a maximum of 47 for the entire charted space).

3) Likewise, you will find additional minor alien races in the world descriptive text.

4) One can do an auful lot with variant cultures, without the need to reach for a full blown race

5) The fact that there are already an over abundance of minor races in a region, is not IMHO a good reason to further add more.

 

[neil]

I dont think my response was hostile,but to be honest i started this to discuss aliens ,hoping people may be developing and using new races.This is because as a writer im interested, and as my last reply states i want to use my games to explore! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrewmv:
Uhmm, may one ask why you ask for critism if you are going to react so hostily when it is negative? You ask for an opinion and I gave one honestly without being insulting.

Also, I did not shout at you, please do not shout at me.

However, to answer a few specific points:

1) The Payans mention in Traveller Adventure are never presented as a MHR, they are simply a variant culture (quite a different thing)

2) Minor Human Races: Not only are there the Garoo, but in the world description text you will find two others (769-422 and Tondoul both in the Five Sisters Subsector). Together with the Garoo and Darian, that makes four (out of a maximum of 47 for the entire charted space).

3) Likewise, you will find additional minor alien races in the world descriptive text.

4) One can do an auful lot with variant cultures, without the need to reach for a full blown race

5) The fact that there are already an over abundance of minor races in a region, is not IMHO a good reason to further add more.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

[Elliot]

Dear Neil, thanx for the offer of Muodray notes - if you can attach them to an e-mail, I would appreciate it if you could send it to ecv20@netscape.net.

Thanks a million, I think it looks like a great plot.

Elliot

 

[MJD]

umm... are the people of Garoo a minor race?

I suspect we meant to define them as a variant culture. I dunno of any serious differences that would make them a seperate race...?

 

[aramis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Andrewmv:

I'm awaiting AR4 and Humaniti with interest. From the playtests, I'd say we can expect some good stuff in these.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Canon mentions the Eiboken, the Dandies (llewelloly), Chirpers, Darians, and Shaggies. DGP added the jonkereen, and I think one other, but I'm not certain. Eiboken and Dandies are in The Traveller Adventure. Chirpers are in one of the CT adventures, plus are mentioned in AM: Droyne. Shaggies are in a JTAS article. Darrians have a whole AM to themselves.

Also from CT, but not specific to the marches: Virush, Newt (abawaba...), Dolphins, Ael Yeal.

Jonkereen are in one of the MTJ's.

------------------
-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

[This message has been edited by aramis (edited 26 May 2001).]

 

[aramis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MJD:

Muodray?? Well he's this Droyne who doesn't fit any particular Caste. And the Droyne have been active in the region recently. Chirper numbers are falling. Any clues?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems familar to an element of my TU: Yaskodritz. He's a grandson of Grandfather who faked his own death, using a clone, and pinched off his own pocket universe. He's not as isolationist, and hides in the Solomani Rim. But he's just as cauious, haughty, and manipulative as Yaskodray (Grandfather).

Beware them 7th caste (Innovator) PSR 15 Droyne...

------------------
-aramis
=============================================
Smith & Wesson: The Original Point and Click interface!

 

[GypsyComet]

The Jonkeer are also transplants, are much wider spread (if thinly) and are a modern geneered race. As such I have to put them in the same category as the Terran uplifts (Dolphins and primates) when talking about "Races of the Marches".
To borrow from Fritz Leiber, there are races IN the Marches, and there are races OF the Marches...

 

[rancke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DonM:
No offense, but if there were minor races in the Spinward Marches previously, they WOULD HAVE BEEN MENTIONED PREVIOUSLY.

DonM.[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, there were four or five minor races in the Spinward Marches that HAD been mentioned previously but wasn't mentioned in BtC. However, I disagree with your basic point. Until you have a supposedly exhaustive list of races (like BtC was supposed to have) in a given area, you can't conclude that just because one hasn't been mentioned, it doesn't exist. You have to allow authors to slip in new material wherever there is room for it. You can't expect a few small books to contain even an overview of what is to be found on 400 worlds.

Hans

 

[rancke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MJD:
Soooo... everything that comes after the original UPP listings is forbidden? The Marches are limited to the original digit code; if it's not in there, it doesn't exist. I get it now...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but everything that comes after the original UPPs listings and the many writeups of this or that individual aspect of the Traveller universe should either conform to what has gone before or have a damn good reason to change it.


Hans

 

[rancke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by neil:
I dont think that there are to many races in BTC as for example as traveller adventure set in ONE subsector has DANDIES EBOKIN and the human minor race the PAYANS THATS A TOTAL OF THREE.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Payans are not a minor human race. They are descended from immigrants from Regina who are in turn plain Imperials [ie. mixed race].

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by neil:
We invented 8 races and described a human race the GAROO. That's roughly only 0.5 new races per sector, if we had followed the example set by CHADWICK HARSHMAN KEITH MILLER AND WISEMAN the total would be 48 new races.
[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Garoo aren't a minor human race either. They're plain Solomani. I have other problems with the Garoo, but at least they are not contrary to canon the way the minor human races and the RoM populations you introduced are. As for the number of alien races, there are supposed to be about 100 in the Imperium, which works out at about three per sector on the average. The key word here is 'average' just because one subsector has two minor non-human races it doesn't mean that there should be two per subsector.

(Obviously the Spinward Marches has more than its share of races. Other sectors must have correspondingly fewer).


Hans

 

[rancke]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by neil:
(PS I OWN ALMOST EVERY TRAVELLER BOOK IN OR OUT OF PRINT, AND IF YOU HATE CANON BEING IGNORED do NOT READ ANY OF THE CLASSIC BOOKS BECAUSE THERES SOME REAL STINKERS) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm surprised to hear that. From some of the mistakes you made in BtC I would have thought you had some big holes in your collection (_Spinward Marches Campaign_ for one).

It's true that early canon contains some stinkers, but IMO that's no excuse to introduce any more. Rather I think an effort should be made to correct those stinkers.


Hans

 

[MT++]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by neil:
I didnt start this topic to see who likes BTC and GURPS BUT TO DISCUSS ALIENS CREATED IN THE SYSTEM.The point made that we cant have new aliens in the Spinward Marches is the worst idea i have heard in a long time.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Some of the aliens, honestly, felt kind of tacked on.
Your treatment of most of them was good (and I will have to give it a quick re-read to be fair)
Bit as far as the "no more aliens" or max 2/sector.
Screw that, if it is a good idea, let's run it up the flagpole and see who salutes.
The big gasball aliens in Zhodani and Vargr are cool, but I hated the tazcats in Aliens 4
Both are new, but one is lame.

A playtest credit compared to a writer is like a poseur to an artist.
You can hang out at the same parties but that's where the comparision ends
I saw a few mistakes in BTC (world populations, minor typos) but that doesn't make it any less of a good supplement. I actually like T4 despite the typos (I won a 4518th Lift Infantry Regiment badge for submitting the most typos for that) and if I hated a book for typos or minor breeches of canon, I would have to get out of Traveller completely