Federation of Arden
- Thread starter solsec23
- Start date
rancke wrote:
"No, the Arden Society is history either way. It is toppled in 1110. That's CT canon, not BtC."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
By toppled, do we mean the Arden Society or the government that the Arden Society controlled? I see a great difference between those two interpretations.
We know the real participation in the original government was limited to members of the Arden Society; a group of wealthy individuals who pledged money and services for the Society's use in return for access to the levers of power. To me (and YM should and very much will V), that sounds very much like Taiwan under the KMT or Mexico under the PRI - a purportedly multi-party state in all actuality ruled by a single party for that party's benefit.
The 'overthrow' of the Arden government mentioned could have been as innocuous as the Arden Society finally sharing power with other parties, much like the KMT and PRI finally having to worry about elections. IMHO, the canonical involvement of Imperial megacorps in this episode strongly suggests this interpretation.
The megacorps had been shut out of Arden's economy. The political power available to the members of the Arden Society depended on their control of the economy (again, the PRI) and they naturally restricted the operations of the megacorps.
Arden's 'pro-Zhodani' leanings are also explained by this. As the megacorps pressured the locals to 'open up' their economy, Arden brought in the Zhos as a counterweight. The Imperium then won the 5th FW and the Society was seen to have 'bet on the wrong horse', losing support as a consequence. When the megacorps came knocking post-war, the Arden Society was unable to resist for long , lost its firm grip on the government, and was forced to share power with other parties.
Summing this all up, the government of Arden may have been reformed and not remade. We see the megacorps on Aramanx doing somewhat similar things; Sternmetal does not arrange the overthrow of the government of Lovrenyi but they do co-opt it.
HM-R writes viz my question concerning cherrypicking - "Because Y contradicts previously published information without being a vast improvement and Z is self-contradictory."
What precisely constitutes 'vast improvement' and 'self-contradictory' are in the eye of the beholder. Yes, there are many bits of canon that are dismissed out of hand by 99.999% of the hobby. Unfortunately, there are far more bits that no simple majority agree upon. IMHO, BtC is like FSotSI - use any piece of it and you're inviting wholesale use of a badly broken product(1). I feel that we cannot let the camel's nose inside the tent, so to speak.
"I use the same yardstick with regard to BtC as I do with all canon material: [snip of an explanation I agree with]
Again, only a tiny few of the bits that we examine, find fault with, and discard will be 'no brainers'. The overwhelming majority will be seen to 'fit', to 'make sense', to be 'better' by others. Except for a few whoppers, there is no acid test to apply here. Let the nose in and the camel will follow.
"But when BtC uses the Marches as a sort of America to the Rim's Europe, with half a dozen RoM colonies, my belief suspenders snap."
I am very much agreed.
"But in 60 things began to change. Scout expeditions brought word back to the Imperium about all these fallow worlds lying far from the Imperial border, and some utopians outfitted long range expeditions to get there precisely because it was a long way from the Imperium." [snip of other long range colonization details]
So, the utopians; who wanted to get away from the Imperium, and the losers of the pacification campaigns, who grasped at offers to move outside of the Imperium, all decided to settle in a region that was scouted and was already being settled by the Imperium?
Mora was settled in 60 and Regina in 75, while the Pacification Campaigns kicked off in 76 and ended in 120. Why would the Marches be considered outside the Imperium in 120? How many groups; utopian or otherwise, got through Corridor during this period? The campaigns there began in 210 and didn't wrap up until 348. Did the Imperium convoy colonists who were dedicated to fleeing the Imperium through Corridor?
IMTU, the settlement of the Marches was part carrot and part safety valve. The Core had been scouted and settled for millennia. All the prime real estate was taken and no real frontiers were left (other than the odd gas giant moon or Oort Cloud/Kuiper Belt object. There was no place to go anymore. No place to slap on a groat-skin cap, hunt for breakfast, use your sono-cutter, and slap together a log cabin. There was no place left to build a new world.
IMTU, Deneb, the Marches, and even the territories beyond were part of the Third Imperium's sales pitch. Join us! We're going places that the Ziru Sirka and the Rule of Man never dreamed of! The chance to settle colonies 'Behind the Claw' was part of the 3I's promise. Newly joined Hi-pop worlds and absorbed pocket empires all launched colony missions under the guiding hand of the Imperium.
The region was also a safety valve. As you point out, refugees from a hundred worlds could be shipped out to begin anew. The hard-core losers of a hundred conflicts could be dumped where they (hopefully) could do no harm.
YMMV.
Sincerely,
Larsen
1 - BtC is broken only from a canonical standpoint. That should not be the only viewpoint it judged from however. It also happens to be a fine and wonderfully detailed role-playing supplement that can greatly help any GM who is intersting in playing Traveller instead of playing with Traveller. Use it to enliven your campaigns and leave any worries about 'canon' to old poops like me!
"No, the Arden Society is history either way. It is toppled in 1110. That's CT canon, not BtC."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
By toppled, do we mean the Arden Society or the government that the Arden Society controlled? I see a great difference between those two interpretations.
We know the real participation in the original government was limited to members of the Arden Society; a group of wealthy individuals who pledged money and services for the Society's use in return for access to the levers of power. To me (and YM should and very much will V), that sounds very much like Taiwan under the KMT or Mexico under the PRI - a purportedly multi-party state in all actuality ruled by a single party for that party's benefit.
The 'overthrow' of the Arden government mentioned could have been as innocuous as the Arden Society finally sharing power with other parties, much like the KMT and PRI finally having to worry about elections. IMHO, the canonical involvement of Imperial megacorps in this episode strongly suggests this interpretation.
The megacorps had been shut out of Arden's economy. The political power available to the members of the Arden Society depended on their control of the economy (again, the PRI) and they naturally restricted the operations of the megacorps.
Arden's 'pro-Zhodani' leanings are also explained by this. As the megacorps pressured the locals to 'open up' their economy, Arden brought in the Zhos as a counterweight. The Imperium then won the 5th FW and the Society was seen to have 'bet on the wrong horse', losing support as a consequence. When the megacorps came knocking post-war, the Arden Society was unable to resist for long , lost its firm grip on the government, and was forced to share power with other parties.
Summing this all up, the government of Arden may have been reformed and not remade. We see the megacorps on Aramanx doing somewhat similar things; Sternmetal does not arrange the overthrow of the government of Lovrenyi but they do co-opt it.
HM-R writes viz my question concerning cherrypicking - "Because Y contradicts previously published information without being a vast improvement and Z is self-contradictory."
What precisely constitutes 'vast improvement' and 'self-contradictory' are in the eye of the beholder. Yes, there are many bits of canon that are dismissed out of hand by 99.999% of the hobby. Unfortunately, there are far more bits that no simple majority agree upon. IMHO, BtC is like FSotSI - use any piece of it and you're inviting wholesale use of a badly broken product(1). I feel that we cannot let the camel's nose inside the tent, so to speak.
"I use the same yardstick with regard to BtC as I do with all canon material: [snip of an explanation I agree with]
Again, only a tiny few of the bits that we examine, find fault with, and discard will be 'no brainers'. The overwhelming majority will be seen to 'fit', to 'make sense', to be 'better' by others. Except for a few whoppers, there is no acid test to apply here. Let the nose in and the camel will follow.
"But when BtC uses the Marches as a sort of America to the Rim's Europe, with half a dozen RoM colonies, my belief suspenders snap."
I am very much agreed.
"But in 60 things began to change. Scout expeditions brought word back to the Imperium about all these fallow worlds lying far from the Imperial border, and some utopians outfitted long range expeditions to get there precisely because it was a long way from the Imperium." [snip of other long range colonization details]
So, the utopians; who wanted to get away from the Imperium, and the losers of the pacification campaigns, who grasped at offers to move outside of the Imperium, all decided to settle in a region that was scouted and was already being settled by the Imperium?
Mora was settled in 60 and Regina in 75, while the Pacification Campaigns kicked off in 76 and ended in 120. Why would the Marches be considered outside the Imperium in 120? How many groups; utopian or otherwise, got through Corridor during this period? The campaigns there began in 210 and didn't wrap up until 348. Did the Imperium convoy colonists who were dedicated to fleeing the Imperium through Corridor?
IMTU, the settlement of the Marches was part carrot and part safety valve. The Core had been scouted and settled for millennia. All the prime real estate was taken and no real frontiers were left (other than the odd gas giant moon or Oort Cloud/Kuiper Belt object. There was no place to go anymore. No place to slap on a groat-skin cap, hunt for breakfast, use your sono-cutter, and slap together a log cabin. There was no place left to build a new world.
IMTU, Deneb, the Marches, and even the territories beyond were part of the Third Imperium's sales pitch. Join us! We're going places that the Ziru Sirka and the Rule of Man never dreamed of! The chance to settle colonies 'Behind the Claw' was part of the 3I's promise. Newly joined Hi-pop worlds and absorbed pocket empires all launched colony missions under the guiding hand of the Imperium.
The region was also a safety valve. As you point out, refugees from a hundred worlds could be shipped out to begin anew. The hard-core losers of a hundred conflicts could be dumped where they (hopefully) could do no harm.
YMMV.
Sincerely,
Larsen
1 - BtC is broken only from a canonical standpoint. That should not be the only viewpoint it judged from however. It also happens to be a fine and wonderfully detailed role-playing supplement that can greatly help any GM who is intersting in playing Traveller instead of playing with Traveller. Use it to enliven your campaigns and leave any worries about 'canon' to old poops like me!
rancke wrote:
"No, the Arden Society is history either way. It is toppled in 1110. That's CT canon, not BtC."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
By toppled, do we mean the Arden Society or the government that the Arden Society controlled? I see a great difference between those two interpretations.
We know the real participation in the original government was limited to members of the Arden Society; a group of wealthy individuals who pledged money and services for the Society's use in return for access to the levers of power. To me (and YM should and very much will V), that sounds very much like Taiwan under the KMT or Mexico under the PRI - a purportedly multi-party state in all actuality ruled by a single party for that party's benefit.
The 'overthrow' of the Arden government mentioned could have been as innocuous as the Arden Society finally sharing power with other parties, much like the KMT and PRI finally having to worry about elections. IMHO, the canonical involvement of Imperial megacorps in this episode strongly suggests this interpretation.
The megacorps had been shut out of Arden's economy. The political power available to the members of the Arden Society depended on their control of the economy (again, the PRI) and they naturally restricted the operations of the megacorps.
Arden's 'pro-Zhodani' leanings are also explained by this. As the megacorps pressured the locals to 'open up' their economy, Arden brought in the Zhos as a counterweight. The Imperium then won the 5th FW and the Society was seen to have 'bet on the wrong horse', losing support as a consequence. When the megacorps came knocking post-war, the Arden Society was unable to resist for long , lost its firm grip on the government, and was forced to share power with other parties.
Summing this all up, the government of Arden may have been reformed and not remade. We see the megacorps on Aramanx doing somewhat similar things; Sternmetal does not arrange the overthrow of the government of Lovrenyi but they do co-opt it.
HM-R writes viz my question concerning cherrypicking - "Because Y contradicts previously published information without being a vast improvement and Z is self-contradictory."
What precisely constitutes 'vast improvement' and 'self-contradictory' are in the eye of the beholder. Yes, there are many bits of canon that are dismissed out of hand by 99.999% of the hobby. Unfortunately, there are far more bits that no simple majority agree upon. IMHO, BtC is like FSotSI - use any piece of it and you're inviting wholesale use of a badly broken product(1). I feel that we cannot let the camel's nose inside the tent, so to speak.
"I use the same yardstick with regard to BtC as I do with all canon material: [snip of an explanation I agree with]
Again, only a tiny few of the bits that we examine, find fault with, and discard will be 'no brainers'. The overwhelming majority will be seen to 'fit', to 'make sense', to be 'better' by others. Except for a few whoppers, there is no acid test to apply here. Let the nose in and the camel will follow.
"But when BtC uses the Marches as a sort of America to the Rim's Europe, with half a dozen RoM colonies, my belief suspenders snap."
I am very much agreed.
"But in 60 things began to change. Scout expeditions brought word back to the Imperium about all these fallow worlds lying far from the Imperial border, and some utopians outfitted long range expeditions to get there precisely because it was a long way from the Imperium." [snip of other long range colonization details]
So, the utopians; who wanted to get away from the Imperium, and the losers of the pacification campaigns, who grasped at offers to move outside of the Imperium, all decided to settle in a region that was scouted and was already being settled by the Imperium?
Mora was settled in 60 and Regina in 75, while the Pacification Campaigns kicked off in 76 and ended in 120. Why would the Marches be considered outside the Imperium in 120? How many groups; utopian or otherwise, got through Corridor during this period? The campaigns there began in 210 and didn't wrap up until 348. Did the Imperium convoy colonists who were dedicated to fleeing the Imperium through Corridor?
IMTU, the settlement of the Marches was part carrot and part safety valve. The Core had been scouted and settled for millennia. All the prime real estate was taken and no real frontiers were left (other than the odd gas giant moon or Oort Cloud/Kuiper Belt object. There was no place to go anymore. No place to slap on a groat-skin cap, hunt for breakfast, use your sono-cutter, and slap together a log cabin. There was no place left to build a new world.
IMTU, Deneb, the Marches, and even the territories beyond were part of the Third Imperium's sales pitch. Join us! We're going places that the Ziru Sirka and the Rule of Man never dreamed of! The chance to settle colonies 'Behind the Claw' was part of the 3I's promise. Newly joined Hi-pop worlds and absorbed pocket empires all launched colony missions under the guiding hand of the Imperium.
The region was also a safety valve. As you point out, refugees from a hundred worlds could be shipped out to begin anew. The hard-core losers of a hundred conflicts could be dumped where they (hopefully) could do no harm.
YMMV.
Sincerely,
Larsen
1 - BtC is broken only from a canonical standpoint. That should not be the only viewpoint it judged from however. It also happens to be a fine and wonderfully detailed role-playing supplement that can greatly help any GM who is intersting in playing Traveller instead of playing with Traveller. Use it to enliven your campaigns and leave any worries about 'canon' to old poops like me!
"No, the Arden Society is history either way. It is toppled in 1110. That's CT canon, not BtC."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
By toppled, do we mean the Arden Society or the government that the Arden Society controlled? I see a great difference between those two interpretations.
We know the real participation in the original government was limited to members of the Arden Society; a group of wealthy individuals who pledged money and services for the Society's use in return for access to the levers of power. To me (and YM should and very much will V), that sounds very much like Taiwan under the KMT or Mexico under the PRI - a purportedly multi-party state in all actuality ruled by a single party for that party's benefit.
The 'overthrow' of the Arden government mentioned could have been as innocuous as the Arden Society finally sharing power with other parties, much like the KMT and PRI finally having to worry about elections. IMHO, the canonical involvement of Imperial megacorps in this episode strongly suggests this interpretation.
The megacorps had been shut out of Arden's economy. The political power available to the members of the Arden Society depended on their control of the economy (again, the PRI) and they naturally restricted the operations of the megacorps.
Arden's 'pro-Zhodani' leanings are also explained by this. As the megacorps pressured the locals to 'open up' their economy, Arden brought in the Zhos as a counterweight. The Imperium then won the 5th FW and the Society was seen to have 'bet on the wrong horse', losing support as a consequence. When the megacorps came knocking post-war, the Arden Society was unable to resist for long , lost its firm grip on the government, and was forced to share power with other parties.
Summing this all up, the government of Arden may have been reformed and not remade. We see the megacorps on Aramanx doing somewhat similar things; Sternmetal does not arrange the overthrow of the government of Lovrenyi but they do co-opt it.
HM-R writes viz my question concerning cherrypicking - "Because Y contradicts previously published information without being a vast improvement and Z is self-contradictory."
What precisely constitutes 'vast improvement' and 'self-contradictory' are in the eye of the beholder. Yes, there are many bits of canon that are dismissed out of hand by 99.999% of the hobby. Unfortunately, there are far more bits that no simple majority agree upon. IMHO, BtC is like FSotSI - use any piece of it and you're inviting wholesale use of a badly broken product(1). I feel that we cannot let the camel's nose inside the tent, so to speak.
"I use the same yardstick with regard to BtC as I do with all canon material: [snip of an explanation I agree with]
Again, only a tiny few of the bits that we examine, find fault with, and discard will be 'no brainers'. The overwhelming majority will be seen to 'fit', to 'make sense', to be 'better' by others. Except for a few whoppers, there is no acid test to apply here. Let the nose in and the camel will follow.
"But when BtC uses the Marches as a sort of America to the Rim's Europe, with half a dozen RoM colonies, my belief suspenders snap."
I am very much agreed.
"But in 60 things began to change. Scout expeditions brought word back to the Imperium about all these fallow worlds lying far from the Imperial border, and some utopians outfitted long range expeditions to get there precisely because it was a long way from the Imperium." [snip of other long range colonization details]
So, the utopians; who wanted to get away from the Imperium, and the losers of the pacification campaigns, who grasped at offers to move outside of the Imperium, all decided to settle in a region that was scouted and was already being settled by the Imperium?
Mora was settled in 60 and Regina in 75, while the Pacification Campaigns kicked off in 76 and ended in 120. Why would the Marches be considered outside the Imperium in 120? How many groups; utopian or otherwise, got through Corridor during this period? The campaigns there began in 210 and didn't wrap up until 348. Did the Imperium convoy colonists who were dedicated to fleeing the Imperium through Corridor?
IMTU, the settlement of the Marches was part carrot and part safety valve. The Core had been scouted and settled for millennia. All the prime real estate was taken and no real frontiers were left (other than the odd gas giant moon or Oort Cloud/Kuiper Belt object. There was no place to go anymore. No place to slap on a groat-skin cap, hunt for breakfast, use your sono-cutter, and slap together a log cabin. There was no place left to build a new world.
IMTU, Deneb, the Marches, and even the territories beyond were part of the Third Imperium's sales pitch. Join us! We're going places that the Ziru Sirka and the Rule of Man never dreamed of! The chance to settle colonies 'Behind the Claw' was part of the 3I's promise. Newly joined Hi-pop worlds and absorbed pocket empires all launched colony missions under the guiding hand of the Imperium.
The region was also a safety valve. As you point out, refugees from a hundred worlds could be shipped out to begin anew. The hard-core losers of a hundred conflicts could be dumped where they (hopefully) could do no harm.
YMMV.
Sincerely,
Larsen
1 - BtC is broken only from a canonical standpoint. That should not be the only viewpoint it judged from however. It also happens to be a fine and wonderfully detailed role-playing supplement that can greatly help any GM who is intersting in playing Traveller instead of playing with Traveller. Use it to enliven your campaigns and leave any worries about 'canon' to old poops like me!
rancke wrote:
"No, the Arden Society is history either way. It is toppled in 1110. That's CT canon, not BtC."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
By toppled, do we mean the Arden Society or the government that the Arden Society controlled? I see a great difference between those two interpretations.
We know the real participation in the original government was limited to members of the Arden Society; a group of wealthy individuals who pledged money and services for the Society's use in return for access to the levers of power. To me (and YM should and very much will V), that sounds very much like Taiwan under the KMT or Mexico under the PRI - a purportedly multi-party state in all actuality ruled by a single party for that party's benefit.
The 'overthrow' of the Arden government mentioned could have been as innocuous as the Arden Society finally sharing power with other parties, much like the KMT and PRI finally having to worry about elections. IMHO, the canonical involvement of Imperial megacorps in this episode strongly suggests this interpretation.
The megacorps had been shut out of Arden's economy. The political power available to the members of the Arden Society depended on their control of the economy (again, the PRI) and they naturally restricted the operations of the megacorps.
Arden's 'pro-Zhodani' leanings are also explained by this. As the megacorps pressured the locals to 'open up' their economy, Arden brought in the Zhos as a counterweight. The Imperium then won the 5th FW and the Society was seen to have 'bet on the wrong horse', losing support as a consequence. When the megacorps came knocking post-war, the Arden Society was unable to resist for long , lost its firm grip on the government, and was forced to share power with other parties.
Summing this all up, the government of Arden may have been reformed and not remade. We see the megacorps on Aramanx doing somewhat similar things; Sternmetal does not arrange the overthrow of the government of Lovrenyi but they do co-opt it.
HM-R writes viz my question concerning cherrypicking - "Because Y contradicts previously published information without being a vast improvement and Z is self-contradictory."
What precisely constitutes 'vast improvement' and 'self-contradictory' are in the eye of the beholder. Yes, there are many bits of canon that are dismissed out of hand by 99.999% of the hobby. Unfortunately, there are far more bits that no simple majority agree upon. IMHO, BtC is like FSotSI - use any piece of it and you're inviting wholesale use of a badly broken product(1). I feel that we cannot let the camel's nose inside the tent, so to speak.
"I use the same yardstick with regard to BtC as I do with all canon material: [snip of an explanation I agree with]
Again, only a tiny few of the bits that we examine, find fault with, and discard will be 'no brainers'. The overwhelming majority will be seen to 'fit', to 'make sense', to be 'better' by others. Except for a few whoppers, there is no acid test to apply here. Let the nose in and the camel will follow.
"But when BtC uses the Marches as a sort of America to the Rim's Europe, with half a dozen RoM colonies, my belief suspenders snap."
I am very much agreed.
"But in 60 things began to change. Scout expeditions brought word back to the Imperium about all these fallow worlds lying far from the Imperial border, and some utopians outfitted long range expeditions to get there precisely because it was a long way from the Imperium." [snip of other long range colonization details]
So, the utopians; who wanted to get away from the Imperium, and the losers of the pacification campaigns, who grasped at offers to move outside of the Imperium, all decided to settle in a region that was scouted and was already being settled by the Imperium?
Mora was settled in 60 and Regina in 75, while the Pacification Campaigns kicked off in 76 and ended in 120. Why would the Marches be considered outside the Imperium in 120? How many groups; utopian or otherwise, got through Corridor during this period? The campaigns there began in 210 and didn't wrap up until 348. Did the Imperium convoy colonists who were dedicated to fleeing the Imperium through Corridor?
IMTU, the settlement of the Marches was part carrot and part safety valve. The Core had been scouted and settled for millennia. All the prime real estate was taken and no real frontiers were left (other than the odd gas giant moon or Oort Cloud/Kuiper Belt object. There was no place to go anymore. No place to slap on a groat-skin cap, hunt for breakfast, use your sono-cutter, and slap together a log cabin. There was no place left to build a new world.
IMTU, Deneb, the Marches, and even the territories beyond were part of the Third Imperium's sales pitch. Join us! We're going places that the Ziru Sirka and the Rule of Man never dreamed of! The chance to settle colonies 'Behind the Claw' was part of the 3I's promise. Newly joined Hi-pop worlds and absorbed pocket empires all launched colony missions under the guiding hand of the Imperium.
The region was also a safety valve. As you point out, refugees from a hundred worlds could be shipped out to begin anew. The hard-core losers of a hundred conflicts could be dumped where they (hopefully) could do no harm.
YMMV.
Sincerely,
Larsen
1 - BtC is broken only from a canonical standpoint. That should not be the only viewpoint it judged from however. It also happens to be a fine and wonderfully detailed role-playing supplement that can greatly help any GM who is intersting in playing Traveller instead of playing with Traveller. Use it to enliven your campaigns and leave any worries about 'canon' to old poops like me!
"No, the Arden Society is history either way. It is toppled in 1110. That's CT canon, not BtC."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
By toppled, do we mean the Arden Society or the government that the Arden Society controlled? I see a great difference between those two interpretations.
We know the real participation in the original government was limited to members of the Arden Society; a group of wealthy individuals who pledged money and services for the Society's use in return for access to the levers of power. To me (and YM should and very much will V), that sounds very much like Taiwan under the KMT or Mexico under the PRI - a purportedly multi-party state in all actuality ruled by a single party for that party's benefit.
The 'overthrow' of the Arden government mentioned could have been as innocuous as the Arden Society finally sharing power with other parties, much like the KMT and PRI finally having to worry about elections. IMHO, the canonical involvement of Imperial megacorps in this episode strongly suggests this interpretation.
The megacorps had been shut out of Arden's economy. The political power available to the members of the Arden Society depended on their control of the economy (again, the PRI) and they naturally restricted the operations of the megacorps.
Arden's 'pro-Zhodani' leanings are also explained by this. As the megacorps pressured the locals to 'open up' their economy, Arden brought in the Zhos as a counterweight. The Imperium then won the 5th FW and the Society was seen to have 'bet on the wrong horse', losing support as a consequence. When the megacorps came knocking post-war, the Arden Society was unable to resist for long , lost its firm grip on the government, and was forced to share power with other parties.
Summing this all up, the government of Arden may have been reformed and not remade. We see the megacorps on Aramanx doing somewhat similar things; Sternmetal does not arrange the overthrow of the government of Lovrenyi but they do co-opt it.
HM-R writes viz my question concerning cherrypicking - "Because Y contradicts previously published information without being a vast improvement and Z is self-contradictory."
What precisely constitutes 'vast improvement' and 'self-contradictory' are in the eye of the beholder. Yes, there are many bits of canon that are dismissed out of hand by 99.999% of the hobby. Unfortunately, there are far more bits that no simple majority agree upon. IMHO, BtC is like FSotSI - use any piece of it and you're inviting wholesale use of a badly broken product(1). I feel that we cannot let the camel's nose inside the tent, so to speak.
"I use the same yardstick with regard to BtC as I do with all canon material: [snip of an explanation I agree with]
Again, only a tiny few of the bits that we examine, find fault with, and discard will be 'no brainers'. The overwhelming majority will be seen to 'fit', to 'make sense', to be 'better' by others. Except for a few whoppers, there is no acid test to apply here. Let the nose in and the camel will follow.
"But when BtC uses the Marches as a sort of America to the Rim's Europe, with half a dozen RoM colonies, my belief suspenders snap."
I am very much agreed.
"But in 60 things began to change. Scout expeditions brought word back to the Imperium about all these fallow worlds lying far from the Imperial border, and some utopians outfitted long range expeditions to get there precisely because it was a long way from the Imperium." [snip of other long range colonization details]
So, the utopians; who wanted to get away from the Imperium, and the losers of the pacification campaigns, who grasped at offers to move outside of the Imperium, all decided to settle in a region that was scouted and was already being settled by the Imperium?
Mora was settled in 60 and Regina in 75, while the Pacification Campaigns kicked off in 76 and ended in 120. Why would the Marches be considered outside the Imperium in 120? How many groups; utopian or otherwise, got through Corridor during this period? The campaigns there began in 210 and didn't wrap up until 348. Did the Imperium convoy colonists who were dedicated to fleeing the Imperium through Corridor?
IMTU, the settlement of the Marches was part carrot and part safety valve. The Core had been scouted and settled for millennia. All the prime real estate was taken and no real frontiers were left (other than the odd gas giant moon or Oort Cloud/Kuiper Belt object. There was no place to go anymore. No place to slap on a groat-skin cap, hunt for breakfast, use your sono-cutter, and slap together a log cabin. There was no place left to build a new world.
IMTU, Deneb, the Marches, and even the territories beyond were part of the Third Imperium's sales pitch. Join us! We're going places that the Ziru Sirka and the Rule of Man never dreamed of! The chance to settle colonies 'Behind the Claw' was part of the 3I's promise. Newly joined Hi-pop worlds and absorbed pocket empires all launched colony missions under the guiding hand of the Imperium.
The region was also a safety valve. As you point out, refugees from a hundred worlds could be shipped out to begin anew. The hard-core losers of a hundred conflicts could be dumped where they (hopefully) could do no harm.
YMMV.
Sincerely,
Larsen
1 - BtC is broken only from a canonical standpoint. That should not be the only viewpoint it judged from however. It also happens to be a fine and wonderfully detailed role-playing supplement that can greatly help any GM who is intersting in playing Traveller instead of playing with Traveller. Use it to enliven your campaigns and leave any worries about 'canon' to old poops like me!
You're right, I'll back down a bit. The Arden Society could have survived. But the operative phrase is could have. It could also have been completely overthrown. All we have is one news item that tells us that something that could be described by a reporter as a 'bloodless coup' took place in 1110. But by that token the next person to write about Arden in the year 1120 is perfectly free to introduce ten changes of government over the preceding decade. And there is no real reason why he shouldn't chose to 'canonize' a version that is compatible with BtC's description of Arden and IMO good reason why he should.
Which is why any shared universe needs an arbiter. And in the case of the OTU (and the GTU) we have Marc Miller and his designees.
I think you're wrong. There is an acid test: "Can you convince Marc Miller or one of his designated viceroys to accept this or allow us to change that?"
The sad fact is that, strictly speaking, GT authors have no choice but to accept BtC as gospel truth, unless we can convince Jon and Loren otherwise. The burden of proof is on anyone who wants to change any bit of BtC.
Because by and large it wasn't being settled by the Imperium at that time. It was being settled by people coming from the Imperium, but that's not the same thing at all.
Here's a few canovical dates for you:
100...........First Imperial surveys of the Spinward Marches completed by now. [TB:149]
200...........Major inroads in settling the Spinward Marches has been made by now. [TB:149]
200-400..The major Imperial expansion and settlement of the Spinward Marches occurs. [TD18:23]
So the Imperium didn't even complete their survey of the Marches until around 100 and those major inroads in settling the Marches mentioned in the second date was made before the major Imperial expansion took place.
Because the few Imperial worlds in the Marches at the time were about 30 parsecs from the nearest sizable cluster of Imperial worlds (the Lidash League in Deneb's 2nd Quadrant) and that was a disjoined cluster separated from the Imperium proper by most of Corridor. Mora was originally a resource extraction operation, not a colony venture (semi-canon, see: http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?33 ), and Regina was settled by utopians trying to get far away from the Imperium (my interpretation).
Not all that many. My early history of the Spinward Marches is still far too unfinished to give any accurate number.
In a few cases they probably did. In other cases the utopians used the same 'stepping stone'[*] worlds in Eneri that LSP, Sharurshid, and Zhunasthu Enterprises used.
Hans
[*]LIBRARY DATA: Stepping Stone: Colloquial name for any Vargr world in Eneri sector that is willing to protect Imperial traffic. Contact across Eneri is greatly impeded by the intervening Vargr, but the corporations solved the immediate problem with convoys and began searching for "stepping stone worlds" along the route with sufficient system defenses to deter corsairs and the willingness to protect traders -- for a price, of course. Several Vargr worlds have proven most amenable in this respect.
You're right, I'll back down a bit. The Arden Society could have survived. But the operative phrase is could have. It could also have been completely overthrown. All we have is one news item that tells us that something that could be described by a reporter as a 'bloodless coup' took place in 1110. But by that token the next person to write about Arden in the year 1120 is perfectly free to introduce ten changes of government over the preceding decade. And there is no real reason why he shouldn't chose to 'canonize' a version that is compatible with BtC's description of Arden and IMO good reason why he should.
Which is why any shared universe needs an arbiter. And in the case of the OTU (and the GTU) we have Marc Miller and his designees.
I think you're wrong. There is an acid test: "Can you convince Marc Miller or one of his designated viceroys to accept this or allow us to change that?"
The sad fact is that, strictly speaking, GT authors have no choice but to accept BtC as gospel truth, unless we can convince Jon and Loren otherwise. The burden of proof is on anyone who wants to change any bit of BtC.
Because by and large it wasn't being settled by the Imperium at that time. It was being settled by people coming from the Imperium, but that's not the same thing at all.
Here's a few canovical dates for you:
100...........First Imperial surveys of the Spinward Marches completed by now. [TB:149]
200...........Major inroads in settling the Spinward Marches has been made by now. [TB:149]
200-400..The major Imperial expansion and settlement of the Spinward Marches occurs. [TD18:23]
So the Imperium didn't even complete their survey of the Marches until around 100 and those major inroads in settling the Marches mentioned in the second date was made before the major Imperial expansion took place.
Because the few Imperial worlds in the Marches at the time were about 30 parsecs from the nearest sizable cluster of Imperial worlds (the Lidash League in Deneb's 2nd Quadrant) and that was a disjoined cluster separated from the Imperium proper by most of Corridor. Mora was originally a resource extraction operation, not a colony venture (semi-canon, see: http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?33 ), and Regina was settled by utopians trying to get far away from the Imperium (my interpretation).
Not all that many. My early history of the Spinward Marches is still far too unfinished to give any accurate number.
In a few cases they probably did. In other cases the utopians used the same 'stepping stone'[*] worlds in Eneri that LSP, Sharurshid, and Zhunasthu Enterprises used.
Hans
[*]LIBRARY DATA: Stepping Stone: Colloquial name for any Vargr world in Eneri sector that is willing to protect Imperial traffic. Contact across Eneri is greatly impeded by the intervening Vargr, but the corporations solved the immediate problem with convoys and began searching for "stepping stone worlds" along the route with sufficient system defenses to deter corsairs and the willingness to protect traders -- for a price, of course. Several Vargr worlds have proven most amenable in this respect.
You're right, I'll back down a bit. The Arden Society could have survived. But the operative phrase is could have. It could also have been completely overthrown. All we have is one news item that tells us that something that could be described by a reporter as a 'bloodless coup' took place in 1110. But by that token the next person to write about Arden in the year 1120 is perfectly free to introduce ten changes of government over the preceding decade. And there is no real reason why he shouldn't chose to 'canonize' a version that is compatible with BtC's description of Arden and IMO good reason why he should.
Which is why any shared universe needs an arbiter. And in the case of the OTU (and the GTU) we have Marc Miller and his designees.
I think you're wrong. There is an acid test: "Can you convince Marc Miller or one of his designated viceroys to accept this or allow us to change that?"
The sad fact is that, strictly speaking, GT authors have no choice but to accept BtC as gospel truth, unless we can convince Jon and Loren otherwise. The burden of proof is on anyone who wants to change any bit of BtC.
Because by and large it wasn't being settled by the Imperium at that time. It was being settled by people coming from the Imperium, but that's not the same thing at all.
Here's a few canovical dates for you:
100...........First Imperial surveys of the Spinward Marches completed by now. [TB:149]
200...........Major inroads in settling the Spinward Marches has been made by now. [TB:149]
200-400..The major Imperial expansion and settlement of the Spinward Marches occurs. [TD18:23]
So the Imperium didn't even complete their survey of the Marches until around 100 and those major inroads in settling the Marches mentioned in the second date was made before the major Imperial expansion took place.
Because the few Imperial worlds in the Marches at the time were about 30 parsecs from the nearest sizable cluster of Imperial worlds (the Lidash League in Deneb's 2nd Quadrant) and that was a disjoined cluster separated from the Imperium proper by most of Corridor. Mora was originally a resource extraction operation, not a colony venture (semi-canon, see: http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?33 ), and Regina was settled by utopians trying to get far away from the Imperium (my interpretation).
Not all that many. My early history of the Spinward Marches is still far too unfinished to give any accurate number.
In a few cases they probably did. In other cases the utopians used the same 'stepping stone'[*] worlds in Eneri that LSP, Sharurshid, and Zhunasthu Enterprises used.
Hans
[*]LIBRARY DATA: Stepping Stone: Colloquial name for any Vargr world in Eneri sector that is willing to protect Imperial traffic. Contact across Eneri is greatly impeded by the intervening Vargr, but the corporations solved the immediate problem with convoys and began searching for "stepping stone worlds" along the route with sufficient system defenses to deter corsairs and the willingness to protect traders -- for a price, of course. Several Vargr worlds have proven most amenable in this respect.
rancke explained:
"Because by and large it wasn't being settled by the Imperium at that time. It was being settled by people coming from the Imperium, but that's not the same thing at all."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
Precisely. Prior to the big push between 200 and 400, the Marches was supposedly being settled by people leaving the Imperium; refugees, losers in the Pacification Campaigns, utopians, etc. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already scouting? The 1st Survey was completed by 100, that means the IISS was busy flitting about before 100.
Yes, the Pacification Campaigns were over by 120 and the Big Push didn't occur until c.200, but the Imperium was already there. The Marches weren't a place to flee to, the Imperium was already there.
By ca.300, the Imperium controlled - mind you not 'had settled' but controlled - a sizeable chunk of the Marches. There was a 16 world cluster centered on Regina. A huge salient roughly centered on Mora ran in from Deneb. Spinward it reached Zaibon and Rabwhar, coreward Quiru and Tacaxeb, and rimward Trin and Conway. All of this only 50 years after the Corridor campaign and only 180 years (~3 generations) after the Pacification Campaigns. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already settling?
The Marches weren't a place in which to flee from the Imperium. The Imperium all but owned the Marches from very early on, within the first century of its existence.
"Because the few Imperial worlds in the Marches at the time were about 30 parsecs from the nearest sizable cluster of Imperial worlds (the Lidash League in Deneb's 2nd Quadrant) and that was a disjoined cluster separated from the Imperium proper by most of Corridor."
Okay, I've a question. Is the Lidash League in canon? Or is it something you wrote? Or is it something in between?
"Mora was originally a resource extraction operation, not a colony venture (semi-canon, see: http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?33 ), and Regina was settled by utopians trying to get far away from the Imperium (my interpretation)."
Refer to my question above.
Now things get a little bit fuzzy. We're discussing the settlement pattern of the Marches and you use as supporting evidence material that you wrote. Semi-canonical materials at that and other materials that may or may not be canon. The Stepping Stone worlds you mention later on are another example of this.
You have a certain view of how colonization occured and have a certain view of what the Corridor campaigns were like. You then created the idea of Stepping Stone worlds to support you views. The argument thus becomes circular. To whit; you argue for a certain interpretation while inventing semi-canonical facts to support that interpretation. You cannot manufacture the evidence you need. That's cheating!
All in all, very fascinating work as always sir. Thanks for yet another peek into YTU!
Sincerely,
Larsen
"Because by and large it wasn't being settled by the Imperium at that time. It was being settled by people coming from the Imperium, but that's not the same thing at all."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
Precisely. Prior to the big push between 200 and 400, the Marches was supposedly being settled by people leaving the Imperium; refugees, losers in the Pacification Campaigns, utopians, etc. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already scouting? The 1st Survey was completed by 100, that means the IISS was busy flitting about before 100.
Yes, the Pacification Campaigns were over by 120 and the Big Push didn't occur until c.200, but the Imperium was already there. The Marches weren't a place to flee to, the Imperium was already there.
By ca.300, the Imperium controlled - mind you not 'had settled' but controlled - a sizeable chunk of the Marches. There was a 16 world cluster centered on Regina. A huge salient roughly centered on Mora ran in from Deneb. Spinward it reached Zaibon and Rabwhar, coreward Quiru and Tacaxeb, and rimward Trin and Conway. All of this only 50 years after the Corridor campaign and only 180 years (~3 generations) after the Pacification Campaigns. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already settling?
The Marches weren't a place in which to flee from the Imperium. The Imperium all but owned the Marches from very early on, within the first century of its existence.
"Because the few Imperial worlds in the Marches at the time were about 30 parsecs from the nearest sizable cluster of Imperial worlds (the Lidash League in Deneb's 2nd Quadrant) and that was a disjoined cluster separated from the Imperium proper by most of Corridor."
Okay, I've a question. Is the Lidash League in canon? Or is it something you wrote? Or is it something in between?
"Mora was originally a resource extraction operation, not a colony venture (semi-canon, see: http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?33 ), and Regina was settled by utopians trying to get far away from the Imperium (my interpretation)."
Refer to my question above.
Now things get a little bit fuzzy. We're discussing the settlement pattern of the Marches and you use as supporting evidence material that you wrote. Semi-canonical materials at that and other materials that may or may not be canon. The Stepping Stone worlds you mention later on are another example of this.
You have a certain view of how colonization occured and have a certain view of what the Corridor campaigns were like. You then created the idea of Stepping Stone worlds to support you views. The argument thus becomes circular. To whit; you argue for a certain interpretation while inventing semi-canonical facts to support that interpretation. You cannot manufacture the evidence you need. That's cheating!
All in all, very fascinating work as always sir. Thanks for yet another peek into YTU!
Sincerely,
Larsen
rancke explained:
"Because by and large it wasn't being settled by the Imperium at that time. It was being settled by people coming from the Imperium, but that's not the same thing at all."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
Precisely. Prior to the big push between 200 and 400, the Marches was supposedly being settled by people leaving the Imperium; refugees, losers in the Pacification Campaigns, utopians, etc. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already scouting? The 1st Survey was completed by 100, that means the IISS was busy flitting about before 100.
Yes, the Pacification Campaigns were over by 120 and the Big Push didn't occur until c.200, but the Imperium was already there. The Marches weren't a place to flee to, the Imperium was already there.
By ca.300, the Imperium controlled - mind you not 'had settled' but controlled - a sizeable chunk of the Marches. There was a 16 world cluster centered on Regina. A huge salient roughly centered on Mora ran in from Deneb. Spinward it reached Zaibon and Rabwhar, coreward Quiru and Tacaxeb, and rimward Trin and Conway. All of this only 50 years after the Corridor campaign and only 180 years (~3 generations) after the Pacification Campaigns. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already settling?
The Marches weren't a place in which to flee from the Imperium. The Imperium all but owned the Marches from very early on, within the first century of its existence.
"Because the few Imperial worlds in the Marches at the time were about 30 parsecs from the nearest sizable cluster of Imperial worlds (the Lidash League in Deneb's 2nd Quadrant) and that was a disjoined cluster separated from the Imperium proper by most of Corridor."
Okay, I've a question. Is the Lidash League in canon? Or is it something you wrote? Or is it something in between?
"Mora was originally a resource extraction operation, not a colony venture (semi-canon, see: http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?33 ), and Regina was settled by utopians trying to get far away from the Imperium (my interpretation)."
Refer to my question above.
Now things get a little bit fuzzy. We're discussing the settlement pattern of the Marches and you use as supporting evidence material that you wrote. Semi-canonical materials at that and other materials that may or may not be canon. The Stepping Stone worlds you mention later on are another example of this.
You have a certain view of how colonization occured and have a certain view of what the Corridor campaigns were like. You then created the idea of Stepping Stone worlds to support you views. The argument thus becomes circular. To whit; you argue for a certain interpretation while inventing semi-canonical facts to support that interpretation. You cannot manufacture the evidence you need. That's cheating!
All in all, very fascinating work as always sir. Thanks for yet another peek into YTU!
Sincerely,
Larsen
"Because by and large it wasn't being settled by the Imperium at that time. It was being settled by people coming from the Imperium, but that's not the same thing at all."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
Precisely. Prior to the big push between 200 and 400, the Marches was supposedly being settled by people leaving the Imperium; refugees, losers in the Pacification Campaigns, utopians, etc. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already scouting? The 1st Survey was completed by 100, that means the IISS was busy flitting about before 100.
Yes, the Pacification Campaigns were over by 120 and the Big Push didn't occur until c.200, but the Imperium was already there. The Marches weren't a place to flee to, the Imperium was already there.
By ca.300, the Imperium controlled - mind you not 'had settled' but controlled - a sizeable chunk of the Marches. There was a 16 world cluster centered on Regina. A huge salient roughly centered on Mora ran in from Deneb. Spinward it reached Zaibon and Rabwhar, coreward Quiru and Tacaxeb, and rimward Trin and Conway. All of this only 50 years after the Corridor campaign and only 180 years (~3 generations) after the Pacification Campaigns. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already settling?
The Marches weren't a place in which to flee from the Imperium. The Imperium all but owned the Marches from very early on, within the first century of its existence.
"Because the few Imperial worlds in the Marches at the time were about 30 parsecs from the nearest sizable cluster of Imperial worlds (the Lidash League in Deneb's 2nd Quadrant) and that was a disjoined cluster separated from the Imperium proper by most of Corridor."
Okay, I've a question. Is the Lidash League in canon? Or is it something you wrote? Or is it something in between?
"Mora was originally a resource extraction operation, not a colony venture (semi-canon, see: http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?33 ), and Regina was settled by utopians trying to get far away from the Imperium (my interpretation)."
Refer to my question above.
Now things get a little bit fuzzy. We're discussing the settlement pattern of the Marches and you use as supporting evidence material that you wrote. Semi-canonical materials at that and other materials that may or may not be canon. The Stepping Stone worlds you mention later on are another example of this.
You have a certain view of how colonization occured and have a certain view of what the Corridor campaigns were like. You then created the idea of Stepping Stone worlds to support you views. The argument thus becomes circular. To whit; you argue for a certain interpretation while inventing semi-canonical facts to support that interpretation. You cannot manufacture the evidence you need. That's cheating!
All in all, very fascinating work as always sir. Thanks for yet another peek into YTU!
Sincerely,
Larsen
rancke explained:
"Because by and large it wasn't being settled by the Imperium at that time. It was being settled by people coming from the Imperium, but that's not the same thing at all."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
Precisely. Prior to the big push between 200 and 400, the Marches was supposedly being settled by people leaving the Imperium; refugees, losers in the Pacification Campaigns, utopians, etc. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already scouting? The 1st Survey was completed by 100, that means the IISS was busy flitting about before 100.
Yes, the Pacification Campaigns were over by 120 and the Big Push didn't occur until c.200, but the Imperium was already there. The Marches weren't a place to flee to, the Imperium was already there.
By ca.300, the Imperium controlled - mind you not 'had settled' but controlled - a sizeable chunk of the Marches. There was a 16 world cluster centered on Regina. A huge salient roughly centered on Mora ran in from Deneb. Spinward it reached Zaibon and Rabwhar, coreward Quiru and Tacaxeb, and rimward Trin and Conway. All of this only 50 years after the Corridor campaign and only 180 years (~3 generations) after the Pacification Campaigns. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already settling?
The Marches weren't a place in which to flee from the Imperium. The Imperium all but owned the Marches from very early on, within the first century of its existence.
"Because the few Imperial worlds in the Marches at the time were about 30 parsecs from the nearest sizable cluster of Imperial worlds (the Lidash League in Deneb's 2nd Quadrant) and that was a disjoined cluster separated from the Imperium proper by most of Corridor."
Okay, I've a question. Is the Lidash League in canon? Or is it something you wrote? Or is it something in between?
"Mora was originally a resource extraction operation, not a colony venture (semi-canon, see: http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?33 ), and Regina was settled by utopians trying to get far away from the Imperium (my interpretation)."
Refer to my question above.
Now things get a little bit fuzzy. We're discussing the settlement pattern of the Marches and you use as supporting evidence material that you wrote. Semi-canonical materials at that and other materials that may or may not be canon. The Stepping Stone worlds you mention later on are another example of this.
You have a certain view of how colonization occured and have a certain view of what the Corridor campaigns were like. You then created the idea of Stepping Stone worlds to support you views. The argument thus becomes circular. To whit; you argue for a certain interpretation while inventing semi-canonical facts to support that interpretation. You cannot manufacture the evidence you need. That's cheating!
All in all, very fascinating work as always sir. Thanks for yet another peek into YTU!
Sincerely,
Larsen
"Because by and large it wasn't being settled by the Imperium at that time. It was being settled by people coming from the Imperium, but that's not the same thing at all."
Mr. Rancke-Madsen,
Precisely. Prior to the big push between 200 and 400, the Marches was supposedly being settled by people leaving the Imperium; refugees, losers in the Pacification Campaigns, utopians, etc. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already scouting? The 1st Survey was completed by 100, that means the IISS was busy flitting about before 100.
Yes, the Pacification Campaigns were over by 120 and the Big Push didn't occur until c.200, but the Imperium was already there. The Marches weren't a place to flee to, the Imperium was already there.
By ca.300, the Imperium controlled - mind you not 'had settled' but controlled - a sizeable chunk of the Marches. There was a 16 world cluster centered on Regina. A huge salient roughly centered on Mora ran in from Deneb. Spinward it reached Zaibon and Rabwhar, coreward Quiru and Tacaxeb, and rimward Trin and Conway. All of this only 50 years after the Corridor campaign and only 180 years (~3 generations) after the Pacification Campaigns. If they were leaving the Imperium, why did they stop in a region the Imperium was already settling?
The Marches weren't a place in which to flee from the Imperium. The Imperium all but owned the Marches from very early on, within the first century of its existence.
"Because the few Imperial worlds in the Marches at the time were about 30 parsecs from the nearest sizable cluster of Imperial worlds (the Lidash League in Deneb's 2nd Quadrant) and that was a disjoined cluster separated from the Imperium proper by most of Corridor."
Okay, I've a question. Is the Lidash League in canon? Or is it something you wrote? Or is it something in between?
"Mora was originally a resource extraction operation, not a colony venture (semi-canon, see: http://jtas.sjgames.com/login/article.cgi?33 ), and Regina was settled by utopians trying to get far away from the Imperium (my interpretation)."
Refer to my question above.
Now things get a little bit fuzzy. We're discussing the settlement pattern of the Marches and you use as supporting evidence material that you wrote. Semi-canonical materials at that and other materials that may or may not be canon. The Stepping Stone worlds you mention later on are another example of this.
You have a certain view of how colonization occured and have a certain view of what the Corridor campaigns were like. You then created the idea of Stepping Stone worlds to support you views. The argument thus becomes circular. To whit; you argue for a certain interpretation while inventing semi-canonical facts to support that interpretation. You cannot manufacture the evidence you need. That's cheating!
All in all, very fascinating work as always sir. Thanks for yet another peek into YTU!
Sincerely,
Larsen
No doubt some utopians went even farther (in fact (but this is really IMTU, since it involves the Foreven sector), my history of Die Weltenbund has just such a emigrant fleet colonize Sechstereich, the original core world of Die Weltenbund), but some didn't. Some people build farms on the edge of volcanoes. I see nothing odd in people colonizing worlds several dozen parsecs from the nearest high-population Imperial world. Regina was colonized in 75, yet didn't join the Imperium till 250 (and that is solid canon). That's 175 years of independence the first Reginans got (Plus a much bigger say in how Regina was run under the Imperium than their ancestors had in how their original homeworld was run). No, I don't see the objection.
Not the way I see it.
For one thing, moving further than 30 parsecs from a major starport with a jump-1 ship or 60 parsecs with a jump-2 ship is risky. For another, deportees don't have a choice; they go where the Imperium takes them, which, if the original promise is vague enough, could be just one parsec outside the then-current Imperial border. I'm sure a lot of deportees wound up in Deneb sector. Some of them might even have wound up in Corridor. For a third, I don't see it as strange that an utopian expedition could arrive at Regina, look around and say: "Here is a nice world. It is about 40 parsecs from the Imperium, unless you count those small colonies down in the 4th Quadrant, and they are tiny. Let's settle here." For a fourth, some utopians may not have been fleeing the Imperium so much as searching for a nice, unpopulated Terran-norm world to settle, within or outside the Imperium.
I disagree with your assesment. The Imperium may have had a few paltry scout ships and an occasional visit from an Imperial squadron based in Deneb showing the flag, but they didn't own the Marches. I refer you back to Mora -- Year 100 (And it's companion adventure Passage to Mora) for my view of the Marches at that time.
The last two. It's something I wrote and it is semi-canon, insofar as it is published in JTAS Online, which means that it is available to any Traveller writer who has a subscription and that any Traveller writer has the right to use it without as much as a by-my-leave.
I didn't refer to it as canonical support (That's why I was careful to note that much of it was not canonical). I referred to it to avoid typist cramps. You asked me to explain how I could possibly think that the Marches was settled the way I claimed. I elaborated on my view, in part by referring you to other stuff that I have written. It seems to me that as long as what I have written doesn't contradict established canon, I am on safe ground. I'm not trying to prove to you that Regina was settled by utopians from the Imperium or Arden by deportees from the Imperial core or that the Imperial presence in the Marches prior to 200 was rather low-key. I'm simply telling you that I think that my view of the Marches Year 100 fits with all the known facts. That's not the same as claiming that it's the only possible view that could fit all the known facts.Now things get a little bit fuzzy. We're discussing the settlement pattern of the Marches and you use as supporting evidence material that you wrote. Semi-canonical materials at that and other materials that may or may not be canon. The Stepping Stone worlds you mention later on are another example of this.
You have a certain view of how colonization occured and have a certain view of what the Corridor campaigns were like. You then created the idea of Stepping Stone worlds to support you views. The argument thus becomes circular. To whit; you argue for a certain interpretation while inventing semi-canonical facts to support that interpretation. You cannot manufacture the evidence you need. That's cheating!
Hans
No doubt some utopians went even farther (in fact (but this is really IMTU, since it involves the Foreven sector), my history of Die Weltenbund has just such a emigrant fleet colonize Sechstereich, the original core world of Die Weltenbund), but some didn't. Some people build farms on the edge of volcanoes. I see nothing odd in people colonizing worlds several dozen parsecs from the nearest high-population Imperial world. Regina was colonized in 75, yet didn't join the Imperium till 250 (and that is solid canon). That's 175 years of independence the first Reginans got (Plus a much bigger say in how Regina was run under the Imperium than their ancestors had in how their original homeworld was run). No, I don't see the objection.
Not the way I see it.
For one thing, moving further than 30 parsecs from a major starport with a jump-1 ship or 60 parsecs with a jump-2 ship is risky. For another, deportees don't have a choice; they go where the Imperium takes them, which, if the original promise is vague enough, could be just one parsec outside the then-current Imperial border. I'm sure a lot of deportees wound up in Deneb sector. Some of them might even have wound up in Corridor. For a third, I don't see it as strange that an utopian expedition could arrive at Regina, look around and say: "Here is a nice world. It is about 40 parsecs from the Imperium, unless you count those small colonies down in the 4th Quadrant, and they are tiny. Let's settle here." For a fourth, some utopians may not have been fleeing the Imperium so much as searching for a nice, unpopulated Terran-norm world to settle, within or outside the Imperium.
I disagree with your assesment. The Imperium may have had a few paltry scout ships and an occasional visit from an Imperial squadron based in Deneb showing the flag, but they didn't own the Marches. I refer you back to Mora -- Year 100 (And it's companion adventure Passage to Mora) for my view of the Marches at that time.
The last two. It's something I wrote and it is semi-canon, insofar as it is published in JTAS Online, which means that it is available to any Traveller writer who has a subscription and that any Traveller writer has the right to use it without as much as a by-my-leave.
I didn't refer to it as canonical support (That's why I was careful to note that much of it was not canonical). I referred to it to avoid typist cramps. You asked me to explain how I could possibly think that the Marches was settled the way I claimed. I elaborated on my view, in part by referring you to other stuff that I have written. It seems to me that as long as what I have written doesn't contradict established canon, I am on safe ground. I'm not trying to prove to you that Regina was settled by utopians from the Imperium or Arden by deportees from the Imperial core or that the Imperial presence in the Marches prior to 200 was rather low-key. I'm simply telling you that I think that my view of the Marches Year 100 fits with all the known facts. That's not the same as claiming that it's the only possible view that could fit all the known facts.Now things get a little bit fuzzy. We're discussing the settlement pattern of the Marches and you use as supporting evidence material that you wrote. Semi-canonical materials at that and other materials that may or may not be canon. The Stepping Stone worlds you mention later on are another example of this.
You have a certain view of how colonization occured and have a certain view of what the Corridor campaigns were like. You then created the idea of Stepping Stone worlds to support you views. The argument thus becomes circular. To whit; you argue for a certain interpretation while inventing semi-canonical facts to support that interpretation. You cannot manufacture the evidence you need. That's cheating!
Hans
No doubt some utopians went even farther (in fact (but this is really IMTU, since it involves the Foreven sector), my history of Die Weltenbund has just such a emigrant fleet colonize Sechstereich, the original core world of Die Weltenbund), but some didn't. Some people build farms on the edge of volcanoes. I see nothing odd in people colonizing worlds several dozen parsecs from the nearest high-population Imperial world. Regina was colonized in 75, yet didn't join the Imperium till 250 (and that is solid canon). That's 175 years of independence the first Reginans got (Plus a much bigger say in how Regina was run under the Imperium than their ancestors had in how their original homeworld was run). No, I don't see the objection.
Not the way I see it.
For one thing, moving further than 30 parsecs from a major starport with a jump-1 ship or 60 parsecs with a jump-2 ship is risky. For another, deportees don't have a choice; they go where the Imperium takes them, which, if the original promise is vague enough, could be just one parsec outside the then-current Imperial border. I'm sure a lot of deportees wound up in Deneb sector. Some of them might even have wound up in Corridor. For a third, I don't see it as strange that an utopian expedition could arrive at Regina, look around and say: "Here is a nice world. It is about 40 parsecs from the Imperium, unless you count those small colonies down in the 4th Quadrant, and they are tiny. Let's settle here." For a fourth, some utopians may not have been fleeing the Imperium so much as searching for a nice, unpopulated Terran-norm world to settle, within or outside the Imperium.
I disagree with your assesment. The Imperium may have had a few paltry scout ships and an occasional visit from an Imperial squadron based in Deneb showing the flag, but they didn't own the Marches. I refer you back to Mora -- Year 100 (And it's companion adventure Passage to Mora) for my view of the Marches at that time.
The last two. It's something I wrote and it is semi-canon, insofar as it is published in JTAS Online, which means that it is available to any Traveller writer who has a subscription and that any Traveller writer has the right to use it without as much as a by-my-leave.
I didn't refer to it as canonical support (That's why I was careful to note that much of it was not canonical). I referred to it to avoid typist cramps. You asked me to explain how I could possibly think that the Marches was settled the way I claimed. I elaborated on my view, in part by referring you to other stuff that I have written. It seems to me that as long as what I have written doesn't contradict established canon, I am on safe ground. I'm not trying to prove to you that Regina was settled by utopians from the Imperium or Arden by deportees from the Imperial core or that the Imperial presence in the Marches prior to 200 was rather low-key. I'm simply telling you that I think that my view of the Marches Year 100 fits with all the known facts. That's not the same as claiming that it's the only possible view that could fit all the known facts.Now things get a little bit fuzzy. We're discussing the settlement pattern of the Marches and you use as supporting evidence material that you wrote. Semi-canonical materials at that and other materials that may or may not be canon. The Stepping Stone worlds you mention later on are another example of this.
You have a certain view of how colonization occured and have a certain view of what the Corridor campaigns were like. You then created the idea of Stepping Stone worlds to support you views. The argument thus becomes circular. To whit; you argue for a certain interpretation while inventing semi-canonical facts to support that interpretation. You cannot manufacture the evidence you need. That's cheating!
Hans
This problem:
SJG Staff was aware of BTC contradictions. People were pointing them out. They still didn't get corrected in total. Right or wrong, the SJG modus operendi is only concerned with not violating GURPS methodologies, rather than adherance to actual canon licenses... Similar things happened with GURPS Mage, Vampire, and Werewolf. Unlike Traveler, however, those settings are noted for contradictory canon within a single book, let alone a line, or the whole WoD... so it was far less an issue than for Traveller players.
ISTR that the Sword Worlds were founded by terrans... Nordic and Icelandic folk, at that...
This really is the Crux of GT: It was published under a public announcement (on the TML, at the time) of its non-canonicity, and because of the way current traveller support is going, it is forcibly being drgged away from OTU by it's own GT-Canon... and since you've two options to shoot for if you want "canonicity" of your materials, either you follow GT-canon or T20-Canon... for the purpose here, ignoring the rules dictates aspects....
SJG Staff was aware of BTC contradictions. People were pointing them out. They still didn't get corrected in total. Right or wrong, the SJG modus operendi is only concerned with not violating GURPS methodologies, rather than adherance to actual canon licenses... Similar things happened with GURPS Mage, Vampire, and Werewolf. Unlike Traveler, however, those settings are noted for contradictory canon within a single book, let alone a line, or the whole WoD... so it was far less an issue than for Traveller players.
ISTR that the Sword Worlds were founded by terrans... Nordic and Icelandic folk, at that...
This problem:
SJG Staff was aware of BTC contradictions. People were pointing them out. They still didn't get corrected in total. Right or wrong, the SJG modus operendi is only concerned with not violating GURPS methodologies, rather than adherance to actual canon licenses... Similar things happened with GURPS Mage, Vampire, and Werewolf. Unlike Traveler, however, those settings are noted for contradictory canon within a single book, let alone a line, or the whole WoD... so it was far less an issue than for Traveller players.
ISTR that the Sword Worlds were founded by terrans... Nordic and Icelandic folk, at that...
This really is the Crux of GT: It was published under a public announcement (on the TML, at the time) of its non-canonicity, and because of the way current traveller support is going, it is forcibly being drgged away from OTU by it's own GT-Canon... and since you've two options to shoot for if you want "canonicity" of your materials, either you follow GT-canon or T20-Canon... for the purpose here, ignoring the rules dictates aspects....
SJG Staff was aware of BTC contradictions. People were pointing them out. They still didn't get corrected in total. Right or wrong, the SJG modus operendi is only concerned with not violating GURPS methodologies, rather than adherance to actual canon licenses... Similar things happened with GURPS Mage, Vampire, and Werewolf. Unlike Traveler, however, those settings are noted for contradictory canon within a single book, let alone a line, or the whole WoD... so it was far less an issue than for Traveller players.
ISTR that the Sword Worlds were founded by terrans... Nordic and Icelandic folk, at that...
This problem:
SJG Staff was aware of BTC contradictions. People were pointing them out. They still didn't get corrected in total. Right or wrong, the SJG modus operendi is only concerned with not violating GURPS methodologies, rather than adherance to actual canon licenses... Similar things happened with GURPS Mage, Vampire, and Werewolf. Unlike Traveler, however, those settings are noted for contradictory canon within a single book, let alone a line, or the whole WoD... so it was far less an issue than for Traveller players.
ISTR that the Sword Worlds were founded by terrans... Nordic and Icelandic folk, at that...
This really is the Crux of GT: It was published under a public announcement (on the TML, at the time) of its non-canonicity, and because of the way current traveller support is going, it is forcibly being drgged away from OTU by it's own GT-Canon... and since you've two options to shoot for if you want "canonicity" of your materials, either you follow GT-canon or T20-Canon... for the purpose here, ignoring the rules dictates aspects....
SJG Staff was aware of BTC contradictions. People were pointing them out. They still didn't get corrected in total. Right or wrong, the SJG modus operendi is only concerned with not violating GURPS methodologies, rather than adherance to actual canon licenses... Similar things happened with GURPS Mage, Vampire, and Werewolf. Unlike Traveler, however, those settings are noted for contradictory canon within a single book, let alone a line, or the whole WoD... so it was far less an issue than for Traveller players.
ISTR that the Sword Worlds were founded by terrans... Nordic and Icelandic folk, at that...
THe big problem for me is that I've never seen canonicity as a goal in itself. What I aim for is self-consistency of the setting. Adhering to canon is a useful tool for this purpose, but only if canon itself is self-consistent. When it isn't, as in the case of lots and lots of CT, MT, TNE, T4, and T20 bits, then canon becomes a hindrance, plain and simple.
Take a laugh point. Pre-GT Traveller canon is riddled with inconsistencies and some of the things we were forbidden to fix in Sword Worlds went back to early CT. Contrariwise we were allowed to fix several mistakes from BtC. (And, to be fair, we were also allowed to fix some CT problems).
Terrans, yes, but nothing is actually said about their ethnicity in the original article. What is said is that the current language of the Sword Worlds is "a variant of Icelandic with a heavy dash of German, the other Nordic languages and Vilani"[*] (Yes, Vilani!).
[*] I'm quoting from memory here, so the quote is not exact.
Hans
