Looking for High Guard Combat Software

[atpollard]

I was thinking about trying some experiments with fleet battles … something like the old Trillion/Billion Credit Squadron HGS Tournaments … only testing ideas of fleets at different Tech Levels. Sort of “What do fleets look like at TL 9?” sort of questions.

My question is: Does anyone know of any software or spreadsheets that will calculate the results of a High Guard Fleet (or even ship vs ship) battle?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

None that I know of, except presumably Eurisko...

There are non-trivial decision points during combat, so some sort of AI would be necessary.

 

[kilemall]

I was going to

None that I know of, except presumably Eurisko...

There are non-trivial decision points during combat, so some sort of AI would be necessary.

I was going to waggishly suggest the same, but I’m under the impression it was more several design/sim battle sims learning runs than a standalone agent.

 

[mike wightman]

It should be possible to teach a modern AI HG80...

 

[agorski]

I wrote a starship design app for Space Opera and am now finishing up a major update that adds a "combat simulator". When I'm done with this I might revisit my old High Guard ship design app and tackle another major project.

 

[whartung]

I actually have this.

I though at one point I had an ability to fling two fleets at each other, but I seem to be missing that bit of code.

But I have all of the mechanics and such done. I know I've "flung" fleets at each other, but perhaps that was ad hoc code that didn't get captured in the source file, but was just done through the listener.

It's about 1300 lines of Common Lisp.

(defun l ()
(defun rotate-list (list)
(defun randomize-sequence (sequence)
(defun rseq (sequence)
(defun copy-ship (ship)
(defun copy-fleet (fleet)
(defun printl (label o)
(defun capture-random-state () 
(defun restore-random-state ()
(defun calculate-ship-size-factor (ship)
(defun calculate-ship-size-factorx (ship)
(defun character-to-factor (c)
(defun factor-to-character (factor)
(defun roll2d ()
(defun make-rolls (number-of-rolls target-number)
(defun make-hit-table (n)
(defun make-meson-hit-table ()
(defun make-meson-pen-screen-table ()
(defun make-break-point-table (breakpoints)
(defun dump-table (table)
(defun make-damage-table (result-list)
(defun lookup-pen-table (table attack-factor defense-factor)
(defun lookup-hit-table (table attack-factor)
(defun lookup-missile-hit (factor)
(defun lookup-missile-pen-beam (missile-factor beam-factor)
(defun lookup-missile-pen-repulsor (missile-factor repulsor-factor)
(defun lookup-missile-pen-damper (missile-factor damper-factor)
(defun lookup-beam-hit (factor)
(defun lookup-beam-pen-sand (beam-factor sand-factor)
(defun lookup-meson-hit (factor)
(defun lookup-meson-pen-screen (meson-factor screen-factor)
(defun lookup-meson-pen-config (meson-factor config-factor)
(defun lookup-pa-hit (factor)
(defun ship-has-bridge (ship)
(defun ship-has-crew (ship)
(defun ship-has-power (ship)
(defun ship-can-fire-powered-weapon (battery ship)
(defun ship-can-fire-laser (ship)
(defun ship-can-fire-sand (ship)
(defun ship-can-fire-missile (ship)
(defun ship-can-fire-energy (ship)
(defun ship-can-fire-meson (ship)
(defun ship-can-fire-pa (ship)
(defun ship-can-fire-offensive (ship)
(defun ship-can-maneuver (ship)
(defun ship-can-jump (ship)
(defun ship-can-fire-repulsor (ship)
(defun ship-has-nuclear-damper (ship)
(defun ship-pilot-dm (ship)
(defun ship-ship-tactics-dm (ship)
(defun ship-fleet-tactics-dm (ship)
(defun ship-size-dm (ship)
(defun ship-computer-effective-size (ship)
(defun computer-dm (from-ship to-ship)
(defun ship-effective-agility (ship)
(defun ship-reset-for-turn (ship)
(defun to-hit-dm (from-ship to-ship)
(defun calculate-crits-for-hit (battery hits to-ship)
(defun calculate-extra-hits (battery hits)
(defun missile-to-hit (from-ship to-ship is-long-range)
(defun missile-to-pen-beam-sand (from-ship to-ship is-sand)
(defun missile-to-pen-repulsor (from-ship to-ship)
(defun missile-to-pen-damper (from-ship to-ship)
(defun beam-to-hit (from-ship to-ship is-energy is-long-range)
(defun beam-to-pen-sand (from-ship to-ship is-energy)
(defun meson-to-hit (from-ship to-ship is-long-range)
(defun meson-to-pen-screen (from-ship to-ship)
(defun meson-to-pen-config (from-ship to-ship)
(defun pa-to-hit (from-ship to-ship)
(defun track-battery-fired (battery)
(defun fire-beam (count from-ship to-ship is-energy is-long-range)
(defun fire-missile (count from-ship to-ship is-nuclear is-long-range)
(defun fire-meson (count from-ship to-ship is-long-range)
(defun fire-pa (count from-ship to-ship)
(defun fire-battery (battery count from-ship to-ship is-long-range)
(defun lookup-damage-table (roll table)
(defun lookup-interior-explosion-damage (roll)
(defun roll-damage-table (table count factor armor is-nuclear is-pulse)
(defun roll-surface-explosion-damage (count factor armor is-nuclear is-pulse)
(defun roll-radiation-damage (count factor armor is-nuclear is-pulse)
(defun roll-interior-explosion-damage (count factor armor is-nuclear is-pulse)
(defun roll-critical-hit ()
(defun combine-damage (damage-result1 damage-result2)
(defun roll-critical-hit-damage (hits)
(defun roll-damage (battery fire-result to-ship)
(defun add-battery-if-exists (battery list)
(defun initialize-weapon-hit-order (ship)
(defun initialize-screen-hit-order (ship)
(defun find-battery (type ship)
(defun find-screen (type ship)
(defun find-spinal-mount (ship)
(defun reduce-battery (battery amount)
(defun select-weapon-type-to-hit (ship)
(defun apply-weapon-damage (damage-result ship)
(defun reduce-system (system amount)
(defun select-screen-type-to-hit (ship)
(defun apply-screen-damage (damage-result ship)
(defun reduce-fuel (ship amount)
(defun apply-damage-result (damage-result ship)
(defun apply-damage (damage ship)
(defun ship-prepare-combat (ship)
(defun reset-system (system)
(defun reset-ship (ship)
(defun select-all-weapons-of-type (ship type-list)
(defun select-all-weapons (ship)
(defun select-all-weapons-but-lasers (ship)
(defun select-all-offensive-ships (ships)
(defun fleet-all-ships (fleet)
(defun fleet-agility (fleet)
(defun fleet-fleet-tactics (fleet)
(defun fleet-prepare-combat (fleet)
(defun fleet-reset-combat-turn (fleet)
;(defun fleet-invoke-battle (fleet
(defun fight-random-ship-all-weapons (ship my-fleet their-fleet)
(defun build-fleet (id ship-descriptors fleet-battle-func)
(defun close-range-fleet-battle (arg)
(defun determine-initiative (fleet-a fleet-b)
;(defun combat-round (fleet-a fleet-b)

 

[whartung]

Just to follow up, what are you trying to do? Don't be put off by this if it interests you, I can walk you through some steps to move you forward.

Basic combat and damage is working.

The hard part for fighting a fleet are the conveying the decisions to the individual ships. Who do they target? What do they fire? Who's on the front line or in the back? Do I hold back lasers for missiles?

But if you want to line up some fleets Napoleonic style and have each ship target a random ship on the other side, that's really easy. Rinse and repeat until one side is dead.

Also, one thing I do not have is the power game. Specifically, if you take a Power Plant hit, you are likely going to take an Agility hit as well, but its not a design system, I don't keep track of excess power. "Whats the agility if I don't fire the spinal?" I just can't convey that intent. But since most ships die by crits vs accumulated damage, in the large I'm not sure how impactful it really is.

But here's an example of a ship:

(defparameter ship10k
  (make-ship :tons 10000 
             :m-drive (make-system :factor 6)
             :power-plant (make-system :factor 18)
             :fuel (make-system :factor 1000)
             :computer (make-computer :factor 9 :bis t)
             :crew (make-system :factor 5)
             :agility (make-system :factor 5) 
             :armor (make-system :factor 15)
             :missile (make-battery :type 'nuclear-missile :factor 7 :count 8)
             :meson (make-battery :type 'meson :factor (character-to-factor #\N) :count 1)
             :meson-screen (make-system :factor 9)
             :nuclear-damper (make-system :factor 9)))

A N Gun Meson Battle Rider. I think that's pretty approachable.

Anyway, let me know what you're trying to do, and maybe we can make this work.

 

[atpollard]

Just to follow up, what are you trying to do?

My interests were more “parametric”. Just as an example, at TL 8, there exists only a very small number of options for weapons. So is a Billion Credit Fleet (just to pick a large sample and an equal force) better off with MISSILES or PULSE LASERS or BEAM LASERS or PARTICLE ACCELERATORS? (Assuming High Guard rather than LBB2).

Which are the more economic point defense against MISSILES: SAND CASTERS or LASERS?

The goal is to get some idea of what a PLANETARY DEFENSE FLEET might look like at different TLs.
Is ARMOR better than AGILITY? What SIZE thresholds offer advantages?

Those sort of trade-offs that could be answered by simulated fleet battles with slightly different parameters each time.

 

[bookwyrm]

The goal is to get some idea of what a PLANETARY DEFENSE FLEET might look like at different TLs.

The defense fleet should be built based on the intel/lack of intel of known/possible/imagined opponent fleets. Even a build for two+ unknown random fleets that are thrown at each other for fun/testing are possible.

@atpollard , even with the options you gave in Post #8, for any fleet you build, another can be built using the same options to counter it. It all comes down to the military doctrine of the opposing fleets commanders and how deep the funding is of said militaries, if you want to start there.

 

[mike wightman]

Here is a summary I did once upon a time:

Section 1 Overview of TL changes.

TL7 Computer model 2 limits the hull size to no larger than 3,999t, the maneuver drive maximum of 2 also limits agility to a maximum of 2, power plants require 4t per EP. Armour is 4+4a.
Weapon systems are limited to the 100t missile bay and turret mounted lasers (pulse and beam), missiles, and sandcasters.

Bridge 2%

PP+fuel 5%

M-drive 2%, 5%

Armour 8->32%

TL8 ships are limited in the same way as TL 7 with regards to size, power plant and armour, but they may now have a maneuver drive 5 and hence agility of 5.
An additional weapon becomes available, the 100t PA bay, and the turret mounted sandcaster increases in effectiveness.

Note there is a spinal PA available, but it is larger than the biggest ship that can be constructed at TL8, and the power plant to power it would be half the 3,999t ship

Bridge 2%

PP+fuel 5%

M-drive 2%, 5%, 8%, 11%, 14%

Armour 8->36%

TL9 ship may now be built up to 9,999t, the maneuver drive achieves its 6g agility 6 maximum, and power generation is more efficient requiring 3t per EP. The main breakthrough is the jump drive, and weapon wise the spinal mount remains too large to be ship mounted on the hull size available.

Bridge 2%

PP+fuel 4%

M-drive 2%, 5%, 8%, 11%, 14%, 17%

J-drive 2% +10% fuel

Armour 8->40%

TL10 ship building makes enormous progress. Ships may now be constructed up to 49,999t and can at last carry spinal PA weapons. Armour becomes lighter at 3+3a. In addition to the spinal PA ships can now mount 100t repulsors for missile defence, while 100t bay missile launchers and PA are more effective, and the turret mounted sandcaster increases in capability once again. This TL also sees the introduction of the 50t bay and plasma gun weapons. The 50t bay may mount PA, missile and plasma weapon systems, with plasma guns also available as turret mounts in slightly larger turrets.

Bridge 2%

PP+fuel 4%

M-drive 2%, 5%, 8%, 11%, 14%, 17%

J-drive 2% +10% fuel

Armour 6->33%

TL11 Maximum ship size almost doubles to 99,000t, the meson spinal mount becomes available, and plasma guns of all types improve. Jump 2 is now achievable.

Bridge 2%

PP+fuel 4%

M-drive 2%, 5%, 8%, 11%, 14%, 17%

J-drive 2% +10% fuel, 3% + 20% fuel

Armour 6->36%

TL12 Ship size now reaches its effective maximum of 999,999t, although at higher TLs bigger ships may be constructed.

100t and 50t bay weapons improve across the board, the plasma turret improves once again, and fusion guns are available in 50t bays and turret mounts. Armour becomes lighter at 2+2a. Jump drive performance increases to 3 parsecs. The nuclear damper and meson screen systems come online.

Bridge 2%

PP+fuel 4%

M-drive 2%, 5%, 8%, 11%, 14%, 17%

J-drive 2% +10% fuel, 3% + 20% fuel, 4% + 30% fuel

Armour 4->26%

TL13 Ship size is now unrestricted, 100t missile are more effective achieving their maximum rating, and the meson gun is introduced. The 50t fusion gun is more effective. Turret mounted missiles and laser improve. Screens improve, and the power plant becomes more efficient. Jump 4.

Bridge 2%

PP+fuel 3%

M-drive 2%, 5%, 8%, 11%, 14%, 17%

J-drive 2% +10% fuel, 3% + 20% fuel, 4% + 30% fuel, 5% + 40% fuel

Armour 4->28%

TL14 Ship size remains unrestricted, 100t bays are more effective. 50t bay weapons are more effective, and the repulsor is introduced. The turret mounted fusion gun improves and the PA barbette is introduced. Screens improve, armour becomes lighter and jump 5 can be achieved.

Bridge 2%

PP+fuel 3%

M-drive 2%, 5%, 8%, 11%, 14%, 17%

J-drive 2% +10% fuel, 3% + 20% fuel, 4% + 30% fuel, 5% +40% fuel, 6% +50% fuel

Armour 2->15%

TL15 Ship size remains unrestricted, 100t meson and repulsor bays are more effective. 50t bay meson guns are introduced and repulsors are more effective. The turret mounted PA is available. Screens improve, jump 6 can be achieved.

Bridge 2%

PP+fuel 2%

M-drive 2%, 5%, 8%, 11%, 14%, 17%

J-drive 2% +10% fuel, 3% + 20% fuel, 4% + 30% fuel, 5% +40% fuel, 6% +50% fuel, 7% +60% fuel

Armour 2->16%

 

[whartung]

My interests were more “parametric”.

My stuff could certainly empower that kind of thing.

You need to have a fleet to fight against, and a (ideally static) plan to fight it.

Building up fleets is easy. Giving them different parameters is easy. Swapping out BEAM laser ships for PULSE laser ships is easy.

Then you need to come up with how you want to measure the result. Total number of hits? Number of ships remaining? Overall damage? Time spent in combat?

The ideal is to convey in code for a given ship things like WHICH ship to fight, HOW to fight it.

I already do things like fire sand automatically, but sand can be fired against lasers or missiles.

Right now, I have code like this in my fire-missiles routine:

    (loop while (and (> base-hits 0) (ship-can-fire-sand to-ship))
       do
         (when (< (roll2d) to-pen-sand)
           (decf base-hits))
         (track-battery-fired (ship-sand to-ship)))
    (loop while (and (> base-hits 0) (ship-can-fire-laser to-ship))
       do
         (when (< (roll2d) to-pen-laser)
           (decf base-hits))
         (track-battery-fired (ship-laser to-ship)))
    (loop while (and (> base-hits 0) (ship-can-fire-repulsor to-ship))
       do
         (when (< (roll2d) to-pen-repulsor)
           (decf base-hits))
         (track-battery-fired (ship-repulsor to-ship)))

Simply, while there are still missile hits, and I have sand, or lasers, or repulsors, let fly.

But I have similar code for lasers to penetrate sand. So, right now, if lasers fire first, they'll consume all of the sand, letting any later missile potentially through.

All that can be parameterized of course.

So, you have to "know" how you want to fight the ship. You have to "know" that a ship is going to fire lasers then missiles. Or not.

You can contrive it however you want, but, you have to write code to convey your will on how the battle will be fought.

And that's all doable, not "out of the box".

 

[AnotherDilbert]

My interests were more “parametric”. Just as an example, at TL 8, there exists only a very small number of options for weapons. So is a Billion Credit Fleet (just to pick a large sample and an equal force) better off with MISSILES or PULSE LASERS or BEAM LASERS or PARTICLE ACCELERATORS? (Assuming High Guard rather than LBB2).

Here is a summary I did once upon a time:

Section 1 Overview of TL changes.

TL7 Computer model 2 limits the hull size to no larger than 3,999t, the maneuver drive maximum of 2 also limits agility to a maximum of 2, power plants require 4t per EP. Armour is 4+4a.
Weapon systems are limited to the 100t missile bay and turret mounted lasers (pulse and beam), missiles, and sandcasters.

Bridge 2%

PP+fuel 5%

M-drive 2%, 5%

Armour 8->32%

Most choices are false choices, they don't matter.

Weapons are basically nukes [attrition], meson spinals, and large PA spinals [ship killers], the rest are fillers.
Defences are basically armour and agility, plus mandatory screens and computers.

At lower TLs missiles rule, at higher TLs mesons rule. The breakpoint is around TL-13 because of the cheaper power plants.


Components do not add linearly, they multiply exponentially. Adding drive performance and armour makes the ship exponentially larger, and hence exponentially more expensive...

Example: A simplified TL-12 meson spinal rider/monitor:
No armour, no agility:

BR-E101CF2-001100-000C0-0      MCr 9 656       5 100 Dton
bearing              1                            Crew=78
batteries            1                              TL=12
                   Cargo=77 Fuel=625,2 EP=625,2 Agility=0

Max armour, no agility:

BR-G1018F2-C01100-000C0-0     MCr 12 718       7 000 Dton
bearing              1                            Crew=84
batteries            1                              TL=12
                       Cargo=54 Fuel=629 EP=629 Agility=0

No armour, max agility:

BR-J106DF3-001100-000C0-0     MCr 15 700       9 000 Dton
bearing              1                           Crew=120
batteries            1                              TL=12
                    Cargo=196 Fuel=1173 EP=1173 Agility=6

Max armour, max agility:

BR-K1069F3-C01100-000C0-0     MCr 28 495      17 000 Dton
bearing              1                           Crew=172
batteries            1                              TL=12
                    Cargo=168 Fuel=1669 EP=1669 Agility=6

Mathematically necessary size (≈cost) of ship = payload / ( 1- sum of percentages ). See JTAS#15, p31.
Here armour costs 26%, agility 6 costs 41% = 17%[MD] + 18%[PP] + 6%[fuel], bridge 2%.
Payload is essentially 2000 Dt[meson] + 3×600 Dt[PP] + 600 Dt[fuel] = 4400 Dt plus a bit of overhead.
Simplified:
No armour, no agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-2%) = 5000/0.98 = 5 102 Dt.
Max armour, no agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-28%) = 6 944 Dt.
No armour, max agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-43%) = 8 771 Dt.
Max armour, max agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-2%-26%-41%) = 5000 / 0.31 = 16 129 Dt.

The more percentages (drives&armour) you add, the ship becomes exponentially larger and more expensive.

You can't really afford that at lower TLs, it's really only at TL-15 you can afford to max both armour and agility.

The fallout is at lower TLs slow heavily armoured rocks throwing nukes at each other (like Eurisko), at high TLs (13+) we start to see more fast, medium armoured spinal riders.



This also shows why battleships are non-viable compared to riders:

Take the TL-12 medium armoured spinal rider above:
Max armour, no agility, J-0: size ≈ 5000 / (1-28%) = 6 944 Dt.
Max armour, no agility, J-3: size ≈ 5000 / (1-28%-34%) = 13 157 Dt.
Adding a J-3 drive and fuel makes the ship twice as large (and costly).

It's even worse for the fast unarmoured version:
No armour, max agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-43%) = 8 771 Dt.
No armour, max agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-43%-34%) = 21 739 Dt.
Adding a J-3 drive and fuel makes the ship two and a half times as large (and costly).

For the max armour, max agility version can't even add the jump drive, as the percentages are larger than 100%.

 

[kilemall]

Most choices are false choices, they don't matter.

Weapons are basically nukes [attrition], meson spinals, and large PA spinals [ship killers], the rest are fillers.
Defences are basically armour and agility, plus mandatory screens and computers.

At lower TLs missiles rule, at higher TLs mesons rule. The breakpoint is around TL-13 because of the cheaper power plants.


Components do not add linearly, they multiply exponentially. Adding drive performance and armour makes the ship exponentially larger, and hence exponentially more expensive...

Example: A simplified TL-12 meson spinal rider/monitor:
No armour, no agility:

BR-E101CF2-001100-000C0-0      MCr 9 656       5 100 Dton
bearing              1                            Crew=78
batteries            1                              TL=12
                   Cargo=77 Fuel=625,2 EP=625,2 Agility=0

Max armour, no agility:

BR-G1018F2-C01100-000C0-0     MCr 12 718       7 000 Dton
bearing              1                            Crew=84
batteries            1                              TL=12
                       Cargo=54 Fuel=629 EP=629 Agility=0

No armour, max agility:

BR-J106DF3-001100-000C0-0     MCr 15 700       9 000 Dton
bearing              1                           Crew=120
batteries            1                              TL=12
                    Cargo=196 Fuel=1173 EP=1173 Agility=6

Max armour, max agility:

BR-K1069F3-C01100-000C0-0     MCr 28 495      17 000 Dton
bearing              1                           Crew=172
batteries            1                              TL=12
                    Cargo=168 Fuel=1669 EP=1669 Agility=6

Mathematically necessary size (≈cost) of ship = payload / ( 1- sum of percentages ). See JTAS#15, p31.
Here armour costs 26%, agility 6 costs 41% = 17%[MD] + 18%[PP] + 6%[fuel], bridge 2%.
Payload is essentially 2000 Dt[meson] + 3×600 Dt[PP] + 600 Dt[fuel] = 4400 Dt plus a bit of overhead.
Simplified:
No armour, no agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-2%) = 5000/0.98 = 5 102 Dt.
Max armour, no agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-28%) = 6 944 Dt.
No armour, max agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-43%) = 8 771 Dt.
Max armour, max agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-2%-26%-41%) = 5000 / 0.31 = 16 129 Dt.

The more percentages (drives&armour) you add, the ship becomes exponentially larger and more expensive.

You can't really afford that at lower TLs, it's really only at TL-15 you can afford to max both armour and agility.

The fallout is at lower TLs slow heavily armoured rocks throwing nukes at each other (like Eurisko), at high TLs (13+) we start to see more fast, medium armoured spinal riders.



This also shows why battleships are non-viable compared to riders:

Take the TL-12 medium armoured spinal rider above:
Max armour, no agility, J-0: size ≈ 5000 / (1-28%) = 6 944 Dt.
Max armour, no agility, J-3: size ≈ 5000 / (1-28%-34%) = 13 157 Dt.
Adding a J-3 drive and fuel makes the ship twice as large (and costly).

It's even worse for the fast unarmoured version:
No armour, max agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-43%) = 8 771 Dt.
No armour, max agility: size ≈ 5000 / (1-43%-34%) = 21 739 Dt.
Adding a J-3 drive and fuel makes the ship two and a half times as large (and costly).

For the max armour, max agility version can't even add the jump drive, as the percentages are larger than 100%.

What makes battleships non viable is the artificial limits on spinal weapons. House rule that and they can tear up the space lanes.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

What makes battleships non viable is the artificial limits on spinal weapons. House rule that and they can tear up the space lanes.

One hit, one kill means you don't want several spinals concentrated into one ship.

A battleship is exponentially bigger and more expensive than a rider and its dedicated tender, so for the same budget you get more riders (and combat power) than battleships.

Simple TL-15 rider:

BR-K306JJ3-F49909-459N9-0     MCr 10 856      12 000 Dton
bearing     P   1 PP111                          Crew=202
batteries   P   1 PP111                             TL=15
                    Cargo=480 Fuel=2223 EP=2223 Agility=6

Spoiler:

Dual Occupancy                                      481    13 571
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Part Streaml  Custom             K         12 000         
Configuration       Cylinder           3                    1 200
Scoops              Partial                                    12
Armour              15                 F          1 920     3 456
                                                                
Manoeuvre D                            6    1     2 040     1 020
Power Plant                           18    1     2 223     6 669
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-0, 4 weeks                  2 223         
Purifier                                    1        33         0
                                                                
Bridge                                      1       240        60
Computer            m/9fib             J    1        26       200
                                                                
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                          198       396        50
                                                                
Cargo                                               481         
                                                                
Spinal              Meson N            N    1     2 000       600
Bay                 Missile, 50 t      9    1        50        13
Bay                 Particle, 100 t    9    1       100        36
Bay                 Repulsor, 100 t    9    1       100        11
Triple Turret       Beam               4   23        23        69
Single Turret       Fusion             5   23        46        46
Triple Turret       Sand               4   23        23        17
                                                                
Nuclear Damper                         9    1        20        50
Meson Screen                           9    1        40        60
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 13 570,58        Sum:       481    13 571
Class Cost          MCr  2 849,82       Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 10 856,46                               
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    11
Passengers            Mid     0         202       Engineers    43
                      Low     0                     Gunners   111
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service    37
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

Carrier for a single rider:

CV-M642443-000000-00000-0     MCr 12 819      36 000 Dton
bearing                                          Crew=178
batteries                                           TL=15
                   Cargo=246 Fuel=15840 EP=1440 Agility=2

Spoiler:

Single Occupancy                                    246    16 024
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Streamlined   Custom             M         36 000         
Configuration       Flattened Sphe     6                    2 880
Scoops              Streamlined                                36
                                                                
Jump Drive                             4    1     1 800     7 200
Manoeuvre D                            2    1     1 800     1 260
Power Plant                            4    1     1 440     4 320
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4    15 840         
Purifier                                    1       238         2
                                                                
Bridge                                      1       720       180
Computer            m/4                4    1         4        30
                                                                
Staterooms                                178       712        89
                                                                
Cargo                                               246         
                                                                
Ship                12000 Dton              1    13 200        26
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 16 023,78        Sum:       246    16 024
Class Cost          MCr  3 364,99       Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 12 819,02                               
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge    18
Passengers            Mid     0         178       Engineers    51
                      Low     0                     Gunners     0
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service   109
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

BB with the same weapons and defences, yet much easier to hit:

BB-S3468J4-F49909-459N9-0    MCr 168 748     225 000 Dton
bearing     G   1 GG111                        Crew=1 596
batteries   R   1 RR111                             TL=15
                  Cargo=37 Fuel=108847 EP=18847 Agility=6

Spoiler:

Dual Occupancy                                       37   210 936
                                     USP    #      Dton      Cost
Hull, Part Streaml  Custom             S        225 000         
Configuration       Cylinder           3                   22 500
Scoops              Partial                                   225
Armour              15                 F         36 000    64 800
                                                                
Jump Drive                             4    1    11 250    45 000
Manoeuvre D                            6    1    38 250    19 125
Power Plant                            8    1    18 847    56 541
Fuel, #J, #weeks    J-4, 4 weeks            4    18 847         
Purifier                                    1     1 633        16
                                                                
Bridge                                      1     4 500     1 125
Computer            m/9fib             J    1        26       200
                                                                
Staterooms                                  4        16         2
Staterooms, Half                         1592     3 184       398
                                                                
Cargo                                                37         
Demountable Tanks   J-4                     1    90 000        90
                                                                
Spinal              Meson N            N    1     2 000       600
Bay                 Missile, 50 t      9    1        50        13
Bay                 Particle, 100 t    9    1       100        36
Bay                 Repulsor, 100 t    9    1       100        11
Triple Turret       Beam               4   25        25        75
Single Turret       Fusion             5   25        50        50
Triple Turret       Sand               4   25        25        19
                                                                
Nuclear Damper                         9    1        20        50
Meson Screen                           9    1        40        60
                                                                
Nominal Cost        MCr 210 935,58       Sum:        37   210 936
Class Cost          MCr  44 296,47      Valid        ≥0        ≥0
Ship Cost           MCr 168 748,46                               
                                                                
                                                                
Crew &               High     0        Crew          Bridge   113
Passengers            Mid     0        1596       Engineers   684
                      Low     0                     Gunners   117
                 Extra SR     0      Frozen         Service   682
               # Frozen W     0           0          Flight     0
                  Marines     0                     Marines     0

The Rider is much cheaper and better, despite having to pay for two power plants...
And requires a quarter of the crew.

 

[whartung]

What makes battleships non viable is the artificial limits on spinal weapons. House rule that and they can tear up the space lanes.

How many spinals does BB need to be viable in contrast to multiple-spinal BRs?

 

[Badenov]

So, much of the merits of various weapon loadouts was discussed in https://www.travellerrpg.com/threads/what-works-how-are-ships-and-vehicles-armed.44542/, though I think no clear conclusion was reached in the thread. But.

The smallest ship that can use a N Meson Spinal is just under 10,000 tons. Now the smallest ship that can use a T Particle Spinal is about 20,000 tons, but with agility 6, the N Meson ship needs like a 9 or a 10 to hit it. Meanwhile, the Particle T hits on like a 7 or 8 (vs Ag 6), does size-based crits to the 10,000 and below ships evemn with max armor, so the 12,000-ton is a good call, but the Particle Spinal and can also damage weapons and such because it doesn't take the -6 on the damage table. So while piling a bunch of minimum-sized SDBs in something like a Lurenti can hit like a ton of bricks, it can be foiled pretty hard if you put all your eggs in one basket. There isn't really a best breakdown, either, unless you have perfect knowledge of what your target is going to field.

This is assuming an all TL15 force. Below that, things shift quickly.

 

[Rupert]

The general observation in play by people playing TCS campaigns was that riders were great - until they lost, and then you just lost them, whilst battleships could often jump out. I do not recall what TL the people reporting that were playing at, however.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The general observation in play by people playing TCS campaigns was that riders were great - until they lost, and then you just lost them, whilst battleships could often jump out. I do not recall what TL the people reporting that were playing at, however.

That is not the game mechanic, that was the excuse used for battleships in S9.

The game mechanic is that you pick up the damaged rider with the tender, and can jump it out.
A battleship struck by a meson rarely has the fuel, drive, and power to jump anywhere...

LBB5'80, p38:
BATTLE FORMATION STEP
___Both players form their ships into two lines each. The first is the line of battle; the second is the reserve. Ships in the line of battle may fire and be fired upon. Ships in the reserve are screened; they may not fire and may not be fired upon unless their defending line of battle is broken (see Breakthrough).
___Launch and Recovery: Ships carrying vessels (small craft or big craft) may launch or recover them. A launch facility may launch one vessel each per turn. A launch tube may launch up to forty vessels in a turn. A ship with a dispersed structure configuration may launch all its vessels in one turn. Recovery of craft is performed at the same rate.
___Vessels are ready to engage in combat in the same turn that they are launched.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The smallest ship that can use a N Meson Spinal is just under 10,000 tons. Now the smallest ship that can use a T Particle Spinal is about 20,000 tons, but with agility 6, the N Meson ship needs like a 9 or a 10 to hit it. Meanwhile, the Particle T hits on like a 7 or 8 (vs Ag 6), does size-based crits to the 10,000 and below ships evemn with max armor, so the 12,000-ton is a good call, but the Particle Spinal and can also damage weapons and such because it doesn't take the -6 on the damage table. So while piling a bunch of minimum-sized SDBs in something like a Lurenti can hit like a ton of bricks, it can be foiled pretty hard if you put all your eggs in one basket. There isn't really a best breakdown, either, unless you have perfect knowledge of what your target is going to field.

This is assuming an all TL15 force. Below that, things shift quickly.

Quite, rock-paper-scissors with missiles, meson spinals, and PA spinals...

A PA-T can inflict a size crit even on a size K craft with armour 15... Armour 16 is required to be immune to size crits, but that is difficult to achieve even at TL-15. Regular damage can be repaired, so it's not a major problem...

Attritional damage can be repaired, and over 10 000 Dt you get two repair actions per round instead of one, so a bit over 10 000 Dt is a good idea. 12 000 Dt is a bit much...

Crits can be mitigated somewhat with spare systems such as computers, screens, and crew fairly cheaply.