Extreme Medical Costs

[rancke]

Don't forget what happened to the Ael Yael.
Slavery and genocide that went on for about 70 years.

Ultimately, even the subsector duke was persecuted for being complicit with the whole affair... ( must have been all that bribe monies flying about )

He was either complicit or criminally negligent. In either case he deserved to be prosecuted.

70 years without Imperial notice and the main nobles in the area did nothing.
95% of the Ael Yael died.

Imperium said "oh... we were preoccupied with the Ilelish revolt, sorry."
Obviously the Imps totally suck at multitasking.

The Imperium definitely dropped the ball in this case and the excuse is completely lame. But note that the Imperium did eventually step in and that it did revoke McAteer's Imperial charter[*]and it did prosecute the duke.Solid evidence that the Imperium did have laws against such conduct back then.

[*] And if I had been the Imperial noble in charge of the affair, I would have jailed every member of the McAteer board of directors and every McAteer employee who failed to report conditions and confiscated the fortune of every descendant of every McAteer director and employee who'd died before I could get my hands on him; but of course, there's no evidence (either way) of what else the Imperium did.​

Ilelish revolt was the one that ended with the best parts of the Ilelish homewards surface being scraped down to bedrock for attempting to secede when the Imperium's policies were wrecking the Ilelish worlds' economies.
Nice.

Another unquestionably bad act of the Imperium. But here's the thing: You look at a couple of examples of Imperial misconduct and apparently conclude, for no reason I can discern, that this represents the Imperium's standard behavior. I, on the other hand, look at the relatively low number of worlds with captive governments (and note that there is no positive evidence of any colony world that has been conquered after it became an Imperial member world) and conclude that the Alkhalikois seem to have done a pretty decent job in the last 500 years.


Hans

 

[rancke]

The robots are - the take on them is MTU stuff, it is the IMTU forum after all

Indeed, here on IMTU it is perfectly legitimate to drag in your TU if you run out of OTU arguments. Pointless, but legitimate.

Since you're talking about YTU, I acknowledge that you are 100% right and have all the evidence you need (namely none) to back you up.

By the way, when someone contradicts you on anything you've said about YTU, it means they've missed the part where you stated that you were now talking about YTU. It might save them a bit of bother if you were kind enough to let them know, so they can ignore it if for some strange reason they don't feel like discussing your TU.


Hans

 

[mike wightman]

Tell you what, to save you a lot of bother - don't reply to any of my posts ever again and I won't reply to yours.

 

[rancke]

Tell you what, to save you a lot of bother - don't reply to any of my posts ever again and I won't reply to yours.

Always excepting erroneous statements about the OTU, I shall be delighted to comply with your suggesstion.


Hans

 

[SanDragon]

Horse hocky.

Oh, look!! We just happen to be in the "In My Traveller Universe" folder.

Moving on.

 

[Ishmael]

...... But here's the thing: You look at a couple of examples of Imperial misconduct and apparently conclude, for no reason I can discern, that this represents the Imperium's standard behavior.

Something that seems to be commonly done by various parties... sometimes, with only a single example.
But then again, the history is written by the winners and these 2 events would seem too big to sweep completely under the rug. I'm sure I could point out others if I bothered looking over otu history, but there is no point to that. Some Impy apologist or revisionist would correct me, I'm sure.

Makes me wonder how many other atrocities and bad things the Impies might have done that were swept away from the general public's eye. Something along the lines of the US Gov's handling of Japan's Unit 731 after WW2. or Project MK-Ultra, for example.

I particularly like the fact that the term 'chattel' was put in as if that were the only form of slavery. That would indicate that the Imperium is fully permissive with any/all other forms of slavery/human-trafficking.
The addition of the word 'chattel' seems to be a form of legal armor that only prohibits a less-widespread form of slavery than bonded labor or forced labor. Only in those cases would the Imperium feel compelled to act, even if such actions were nearly a century late and have nearly no one left to emancipate.

 

[rancke]

But then again, the history is written by the winners and these 2 events would seem too big to sweep completely under the rug. I'm sure I could point out others if I bothered looking over otu history, but there is no point to that. Some Impy apologist or revisionist would correct me, I'm sure.

You could probably find some more, though not a lot, since the available setting material is pretty scarce. And someone could point out to you that your thesis was based on very few data points without necessarily being a Impy apologist.

Makes me wonder how many other atrocities and bad things the Impies might have done that were swept away from the general public's eye. Something along the lines of the US Gov's handling of Japan's Unit 731 after WW2. or Project MK-Ultra, for example.

Quite a lot over the years, I should think. But the examples we have seems mostly to involve keeping the atrocities hidden from the Emperor rather than from the general public[*] (not the one about Ilelish, of course ). After all, what power does the general public have in the Imperium? It's not like the Imperium is a democracy. In the case of the disgraceful treatment of the Shalli, the Imperial marquis who was involved was keeping a secret from his duke, his archduke, and the Emperor.

[*] Though doing the first would automatically mean doing the second.​

I particularly like the fact that the term 'chattel' was put in as if that were the only form of slavery. That would indicate that the Imperium is fully permissive with any/all other forms of slavery/human-trafficking.

Chattel slavery is the most egregious and the least ambiguous form of slavery.

The addition of the word 'chattel' seems to be a form of legal armor that only prohibits a less-widespread form of slavery than bonded labor or forced labor.

Bonded labor and forced labor is not always slavery. It depends on the circumstances. I can easily see an Imperial judge decide that a specific case was tantamount to slavery and invoke sanctions. I don't think you'll get him to make a blanket statement that enforcing contracts is always wrong or that a military draft is slavery.

Only in those cases would the Imperium feel compelled to act, even if such actions were nearly a century late and have nearly no one left to emancipate.

That's one way to interpret the handful of example we have, sure. But I repeat that the scarcity of conquered worlds in the Imperium seems to suggest that they are exceptions rather than the rule.

You could also argue that these cases are most likely over-represented in the setting material due to selection bias. Adventures tend to require conflict and bad guys, not placid living conditions and people doing the right thing.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

You could probably find some more, though not a lot, since the available setting material is pretty scarce. And someone could point out to you that your thesis was based on very few data points without necessarily being a Impy apologist. ...

I might add that given the scope of time involved, we would expect wide variation in official behavior - periods of ruthless emperors, periods of enlightened emperors, periods of negligent emperors and so forth, possibly even such variation within the reign of a given emperor. Similarly, the sector and subsector officialdom will vary greatly over time according to local circumstance and the particular mix of personalities involved. One does not expect consistency over millenia or even centuries or decades: the Imperium which authorized the Solomani Autonomous Region ruthlessly quashed the Ilelish Revolt; the Imperium born of ruthless expansion was for centuries quite circumspect with the Sword Worlders.

One can draw a straight line by connecting the data points representing the peaks of a sine wave, but it's not an accurate representation of the wave.

 

[travlar]

Horse hocky.

Oh, look!! We just happen to be in the "In My Traveller Universe" folder.

Moving on.

Do keep in mind that large portions of the discussions in the "In My Traveller Universe" folder are, in fact, based off the OTU. And this particular thread is so far off topic that it's really hard to say whether it's OTU or IMTU stuff without it being made clear, and so far as I remember, there was no particular reason to believe any part of the discussion just going on was specifically IMTU.

 

[Tobias]

After all, what power does the general public have in the Imperium?

I would say, unless it's too uncanonical for your mind, that the Imperium does not have a "general public" as we understand the term. There is no networking of cultures and public opinion across the entire Imperium, as evident from vastly differing forms of government and culture.

Bonded labor and forced labor is not always slavery. It depends on the circumstances.

The circumstances in the case here are rather puzzling. The Chosen's sister would allow the three years remaining in the contract to be "bought off" for Cr 150,000 if Celia escaped. Assuming that this is not vastly inflated (and seeing how the Chosen's sister is generally portrayed, and how the original contract is supposed to have been financially generous, this does not seem all that likely) that would mean that the whole contract is worth MCr 0.25.
So assuming this was an upfront payment, where did that money go? If Celia still had it, she could just settle the matter herself. Things could be different if she needed the money to pay off some debt, but the adventure states otherwise. Did she squander it before she came to here senses? What opportunity would she have had for that on Paya?
So actually, the only way that situation really makes sense is if Celia is trying to scam her employers and possibly the PCs too.

What I also find really interesting is how the "sex slavery" thing was mentioned from the start as the outrageous thing about this whole affair. So the binding, limited-term contract to provide her body for her clients' sexual pleasure is unethical slavery that the Imperium supposedly tolerates. But the original, binding, limited-term contract to provide her body for bearing her clients' children is not?

Mike, are you sure you would have so quickly classified this situation as slavery if the sex angle had been missing entirely and she just would have wanted out of her surrogate mother contract?

 

[mike wightman]

It's the bit about the expectation that she services his other male relatives. Being a surrogate mother is one thing, in vitro fertilisation and implant, or even the good old fashioned way, but being expected to service the rest of male relatives?

 

[rancke]

I would say, unless it's too uncanonical for your mind, that the Imperium does not have a "general public" as we understand the term. There is no networking of cultures and public opinion across the entire Imperium, as evident from vastly differing forms of government and culture.

I don't see what's so uncanonical about that. It's pretty much how I envisage it. Though I do think there is an 'Imperial' culture among the startravelling Imperial citizens and (to a greater or lesser extent) those planet-bound citizens who interact with the startravelling ones.

What I also find really interesting is how the "sex slavery" thing was mentioned from the start as the outrageous thing about this whole affair. So the binding, limited-term contract to provide her body for her clients' sexual pleasure is unethical slavery that the Imperium supposedly tolerates. But the original, binding, limited-term contract to provide her body for bearing her clients' children is not?

It's not the nature of the work one is forced to do that makes it slavery or not slavery. It's the nature of the force.


Hans

 

[Peter Newman]

it's very much the Imperium's problem, seeing as the neighbors all are member worlds and as such entitled to protection against their neighbors -- including Mora. Interference with other member nations is a real no no. Hans

What about colonies? Captive government is one of the most common government types in Traveller. I've never seen a citation saying that these all happened before the Imperium took over the area and the Imperium stops this sort of thing. Have you?

Also - what about Tradewar? In a Tradewar employees of the other company are fair game. Some planets have a corporate form of government. What is the difference between Sharushid having a Tradewar with Tukera in which company forces stationed on L'oel d'Dieu 'a water world under the aegis of Sharushid' [TTA p 18] attack Natoko 'an undeveloped world owned by Tukera' [op cit] and a simple interplanetary war between L'oel d'Dieu and Natoko?

Is it just that a Tradewar provides enough vaguely plausibly deniability that the Imperium is unlikely to act when they would act on a war between planetary forces that weren't part of a corporate government?

 

[DangerousThing]

It's the bit about the expectation that she services his other male relatives. Being a surrogate mother is one thing, in vitro fertilisation and implant, or even the good old fashioned way, but being expected to service the rest of male relatives?

Unless the contract was changed in the middle of her term, what's so wrong with this?

Most countries admit the presence of and to some extent protect the rights do sexworkers. The US is one of the major countries that doesn't and hence misses out on the tax revenue.

And what about the female relatives?

 

[Tobias]

Unless the contract was changed in the middle of her term, what's so wrong with this?

Most countries admit the presence of and to some extent protect the rights do sexworkers. The US is one of the major countries that doesn't and hence misses out on the tax revenue.

That's exactly what I was thinking (Although I have to disagree about your point of 'major countries'. China bans prostitution, for example, as do almost all majority Muslim countries.) TTA specifically mentions that her objections were due to her 'conservative upbringing', not that prostitution was inherently evil or illegal.
The real questions are: Why could she not simply dissolve her contract, forfeiting the rest of her pay? What would the consequences have been if she had refused to honor the contract? I think the answers to these questions determine if the arrangement could in some way be classified as slavery or indentured service. It is most definitely not chattel slavery, since it was a temporary arrangement.

 

[rancke]

What about colonies? Captive government is one of the most common government types in Traveller. I've never seen a citation saying that these all happened before the Imperium took over the area and the Imperium stops this sort of thing. Have you?

I thought I had been quite clear about that. I do have a citation of the Imperium stopping exactly that sort of thing (and referred to it earlier), but as it's a library data entry it is viewpoint writing and thus not necessarily the truth. I'm not saying I have any canonical mention in the authorial voice of the Imperium stopping that sort of thing. After all, if I had, what would there be to discuss? I originally said that I think protecting member worlds from outside attacks was a prime function of the Imperium. Since then I've been refuting the argument that the known canonical examples of corporations and local groups employing mercenaries in local conflicts disprove my opinion, the library data to the contrary notwithstanding.

Also - what about Tradewar? In a Tradewar employees of the other company are fair game. Some planets have a corporate form of government. What is the difference between Sharushid having a Tradewar with Tukera in which company forces stationed on L'oel d'Dieu 'a water world under the aegis of Sharushid' [TTA p 18] attack Natoko 'an undeveloped world owned by Tukera' [op cit] and a simple interplanetary war between L'oel d'Dieu and Natoko?

Do you have any examples where something like that was permitted?

Off the top of my head I'd say it was a grey area and subject to interpretation by the Imperial authorities. Quite possibly with different decisions made by different dukes. Or perhaps, being owned by Tukera, Natoko/Aramis is not a member world. L'Ouel d'Dieu may or may not be a member world.

Note that tradewars are illegal. The Imperial Navy does not usually take an interest in tradewars as long as certain lines are not crossed. Invading a world owned by a rival corporation just might be one of those lines.

Is it just that a Tradewar provides enough vaguely plausibly deniability that the Imperium is unlikely to act when they would act on a war between planetary forces that weren't part of a corporate government?

The other way around, I'd say. Tradewars depend on plausible deniability. Corporate raiders caught in flagrante delicto by Imperial forces that accidentally passed nearby would be in deep, deep trouble, and so would the corporation unless it could hide behind sufficient cut-outs..


Hans

 

[DangerousThing]

That's exactly what I was thinking (Although I have to disagree about your point of 'major countries'. China bans prostitution, for example, as do almost all majority Muslim countries.) TTA specifically mentions that her objections were due to her 'conservative upbringing', not that prostitution was inherently evil or illegal.

Just because something is illegal doesn't mean that it isn't supported by the government.

Prostitution is often winked at by the law in many countries where it is illegal. For one thing, it brings in the tourist money. For another it serves as a safety valve in a country that enforces morality. It is a far from simple issue.

The real questions are: Why could she not simply dissolve her contract, forfeiting the rest of her pay? What would the consequences have been if she had refused to honor the contract? I think the answers to these questions determine if the arrangement could in some way be classified as slavery or indentured service. It is most definitely not chattel slavery, since it was a temporary arrangement.

Perhaps the contract can't be dissolved on the woman's part? As to the consequences of non-fulfillment, I don't know. However, presumedly she had a chance to read over the contract.

I see it as somebody trying to get out of a contract after being paid.

 

[Peter Newman]

I see it as somebody trying to get out of a contract after being paid.

As do I but there is another point of view - inalienable rights.

If the Imperium has kindly granted its subjects an inalienable right than they do not have the power to sign away those rights - therefore any contract purporting to do so would be an invalid contract.

The Warrant of Restoration says "No immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a citizen of the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world." Therefore the question is if 'not being a sex slave' has been granted to Imperial citizens. I am not aware of any evidence that it has been. In fact the data suggests the opposite.

The WOR also says "Article lV - Free Trade The Imperium shall support free trade among its members." Since the ability to peddle ones "assets", is a form of free trade than it should be supported by the Imperium.

 

[aramis]

Peter:
Citizens are not members, and have NO right of free trade.
Worlds are members and have a right of free trade. Which they may or may not abridge for their citizens.

 

[rancke]

The Warrant of Restoration says "No immunity, protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a citizen of the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world." Therefore the question is if 'not being a sex slave' has been granted to Imperial citizens. I am not aware of any evidence that it has been. In fact the data suggests the opposite.

The relevant right the Imperium has granted is the right not to be a chattel slave. Which we're already established that people who sign contracts are not (although an Imperial judge may find that a particular situation is effectively the same).


Hans