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Ending the Rebellion or restarting it differently

kafka47

kafka47

SOC-14 5K
Marquis
Dulinor is crowned Emperor Capital and his Special Forces do manage to elimanate Lucan that fateful day in 1116. Has anyone played out this scenario?

There would be grumblings in the Moot both from the traditionalists who would resent the Dulinor reforms and those who do not accept that the Right of Assassination applied (especially when the Real Stephon and Margaret make their appearance). So not the complete breakdown but a more traditional Rebellion with isolated pockets of resistance erupting here & there.

This set in a large collossus that is slowly coming apart. A rather Asimovian Empire scenario, not to mention the looming threat posed by the Empress Wave.
 
Dulinor is crowned Emperor Capital and his Special Forces do manage to elimanate Lucan that fateful day in 1116. Has anyone played out this scenario?

There would be grumblings in the Moot both from the traditionalists who would resent the Dulinor reforms and those who do not accept that the Right of Assassination applied (especially when the Real Stephon and Margaret make their appearance). So not the complete breakdown but a more traditional Rebellion with isolated pockets of resistance erupting here & there.

This set in a large collossus that is slowly coming apart. A rather Asimovian Empire scenario, not to mention the looming threat posed by the Empress Wave.
 
Dulinor is crowned Emperor Capital and his Special Forces do manage to elimanate Lucan that fateful day in 1116. Has anyone played out this scenario?

There would be grumblings in the Moot both from the traditionalists who would resent the Dulinor reforms and those who do not accept that the Right of Assassination applied (especially when the Real Stephon and Margaret make their appearance). So not the complete breakdown but a more traditional Rebellion with isolated pockets of resistance erupting here & there.

This set in a large collossus that is slowly coming apart. A rather Asimovian Empire scenario, not to mention the looming threat posed by the Empress Wave.
 
The big questions about such a setting are:
1) How far would Dulinor actually go with his reforms and how quickly?
2) How will the masses respond? Will they see him as a liberator, or will they eventually become dissatisfied with a too-moderate reform-from-above and from broken promises of freedom and rise to overthrow the monarchy once and for all and force their will on the government?
3) Could the Imperium be saved from its decay by reforms, or will they just hasten its death by upsetting the uneasy balance between the opposing elements of its ruling class?

I once thought of a scenario where Dulinor managed to win the MT Rebellion in 1130, destroying the Virus (or delaying its release?) and taking over the few worlds that weren't charred, radioactive ruins in the Core Sector (mostly devastated by Lucan's scorched earth tactics). The prolonged war and the need to consolidate his power in a very unstable universe and with untrustworthy nobles would have blackened and hardened his heart, and he would become the tyrant he sought to overthrow, but of a different color: an absolute monarch over one sector, similar to Louis XIV in France (who crushed the power of nobility and turned the feudals into royal-court playthings with alot of privileuges but very little administrative power) but with far less glamor around him. Yes, it will still be called "The Third Imperium", but its actual power will be limited to the Core Sector. Worse than that, a popular revolution in the Illelish sector would try to throw out the Tyrant Dulinor, setting the stage for a very messy (but far smaller scale) Rebellion II.
 
The big questions about such a setting are:
1) How far would Dulinor actually go with his reforms and how quickly?
2) How will the masses respond? Will they see him as a liberator, or will they eventually become dissatisfied with a too-moderate reform-from-above and from broken promises of freedom and rise to overthrow the monarchy once and for all and force their will on the government?
3) Could the Imperium be saved from its decay by reforms, or will they just hasten its death by upsetting the uneasy balance between the opposing elements of its ruling class?

I once thought of a scenario where Dulinor managed to win the MT Rebellion in 1130, destroying the Virus (or delaying its release?) and taking over the few worlds that weren't charred, radioactive ruins in the Core Sector (mostly devastated by Lucan's scorched earth tactics). The prolonged war and the need to consolidate his power in a very unstable universe and with untrustworthy nobles would have blackened and hardened his heart, and he would become the tyrant he sought to overthrow, but of a different color: an absolute monarch over one sector, similar to Louis XIV in France (who crushed the power of nobility and turned the feudals into royal-court playthings with alot of privileuges but very little administrative power) but with far less glamor around him. Yes, it will still be called "The Third Imperium", but its actual power will be limited to the Core Sector. Worse than that, a popular revolution in the Illelish sector would try to throw out the Tyrant Dulinor, setting the stage for a very messy (but far smaller scale) Rebellion II.
 
The big questions about such a setting are:
1) How far would Dulinor actually go with his reforms and how quickly?
2) How will the masses respond? Will they see him as a liberator, or will they eventually become dissatisfied with a too-moderate reform-from-above and from broken promises of freedom and rise to overthrow the monarchy once and for all and force their will on the government?
3) Could the Imperium be saved from its decay by reforms, or will they just hasten its death by upsetting the uneasy balance between the opposing elements of its ruling class?

I once thought of a scenario where Dulinor managed to win the MT Rebellion in 1130, destroying the Virus (or delaying its release?) and taking over the few worlds that weren't charred, radioactive ruins in the Core Sector (mostly devastated by Lucan's scorched earth tactics). The prolonged war and the need to consolidate his power in a very unstable universe and with untrustworthy nobles would have blackened and hardened his heart, and he would become the tyrant he sought to overthrow, but of a different color: an absolute monarch over one sector, similar to Louis XIV in France (who crushed the power of nobility and turned the feudals into royal-court playthings with alot of privileuges but very little administrative power) but with far less glamor around him. Yes, it will still be called "The Third Imperium", but its actual power will be limited to the Core Sector. Worse than that, a popular revolution in the Illelish sector would try to throw out the Tyrant Dulinor, setting the stage for a very messy (but far smaller scale) Rebellion II.
 
1) How far would Dulinor actually go with his reforms and how quickly?

I think that would depend on the “mood” of the nobility and the civil service.
If the nobles recognize that things are coming apart slowly and they fear for their posterity then he might have some success. After all nobles seem to control the military and the Megacorps to a greater or lesser extent. If the could create a reform movement that becomes fashionable among the movers and shakers then he could have some success. If he could live 50 or 60 more years he could pass the ideas on to the next generation of nobility and they could carry on the work..


2) How will the masses respond? Will they see him as a liberator, or will they eventually become dissatisfied with a too-moderate reform-from-above and from broken promises of freedom and rise to overthrow the monarchy once and for all and force their will on the government?
Depends on the locality and the power of the Imperium. If the Imperium is not an in-your-face jackbooted power that is a daily irritant then people might be more inclined to put their faith in the far off king. I think it is widely accepted that you could live you whole life and never see an agent of the 3I. Again if the mood of the people is reform minded on a few of the important worlds then it could happen. Mainly the people will have to live with the opinions of the nobility. At the risk of becoming to political it is not a stretch to say that our elite has a powerful influence on our opinions and we have a more or less democratic political structure. IN a system like the 3I I think most people see the Imperium as eternal and may have habitually follow the lead of the nobles.

3) Could the Imperium be saved from its decay by reforms, or will they just hasten its death by upsetting the uneasy balance between the opposing elements of its ruling class.

Again I thinking the power here rests with the nobility. If they are an inward looking, self serving group of petty power seekers then the whole thing is going to come apart. If they think that their power flows from the existing power structure and they wish to preserve that overall structure for their posterity and the myth of the Imperium then he could be wildly successful. Reformers will work tirelessly, those that don’t care will pushed to the side and a after a few smaller rebellions the marginalized old guard will be swept out of the way by force.
 
1) How far would Dulinor actually go with his reforms and how quickly?

I think that would depend on the “mood” of the nobility and the civil service.
If the nobles recognize that things are coming apart slowly and they fear for their posterity then he might have some success. After all nobles seem to control the military and the Megacorps to a greater or lesser extent. If the could create a reform movement that becomes fashionable among the movers and shakers then he could have some success. If he could live 50 or 60 more years he could pass the ideas on to the next generation of nobility and they could carry on the work..


2) How will the masses respond? Will they see him as a liberator, or will they eventually become dissatisfied with a too-moderate reform-from-above and from broken promises of freedom and rise to overthrow the monarchy once and for all and force their will on the government?
Depends on the locality and the power of the Imperium. If the Imperium is not an in-your-face jackbooted power that is a daily irritant then people might be more inclined to put their faith in the far off king. I think it is widely accepted that you could live you whole life and never see an agent of the 3I. Again if the mood of the people is reform minded on a few of the important worlds then it could happen. Mainly the people will have to live with the opinions of the nobility. At the risk of becoming to political it is not a stretch to say that our elite has a powerful influence on our opinions and we have a more or less democratic political structure. IN a system like the 3I I think most people see the Imperium as eternal and may have habitually follow the lead of the nobles.

3) Could the Imperium be saved from its decay by reforms, or will they just hasten its death by upsetting the uneasy balance between the opposing elements of its ruling class.

Again I thinking the power here rests with the nobility. If they are an inward looking, self serving group of petty power seekers then the whole thing is going to come apart. If they think that their power flows from the existing power structure and they wish to preserve that overall structure for their posterity and the myth of the Imperium then he could be wildly successful. Reformers will work tirelessly, those that don’t care will pushed to the side and a after a few smaller rebellions the marginalized old guard will be swept out of the way by force.
 
1) How far would Dulinor actually go with his reforms and how quickly?

I think that would depend on the “mood” of the nobility and the civil service.
If the nobles recognize that things are coming apart slowly and they fear for their posterity then he might have some success. After all nobles seem to control the military and the Megacorps to a greater or lesser extent. If the could create a reform movement that becomes fashionable among the movers and shakers then he could have some success. If he could live 50 or 60 more years he could pass the ideas on to the next generation of nobility and they could carry on the work..


2) How will the masses respond? Will they see him as a liberator, or will they eventually become dissatisfied with a too-moderate reform-from-above and from broken promises of freedom and rise to overthrow the monarchy once and for all and force their will on the government?
Depends on the locality and the power of the Imperium. If the Imperium is not an in-your-face jackbooted power that is a daily irritant then people might be more inclined to put their faith in the far off king. I think it is widely accepted that you could live you whole life and never see an agent of the 3I. Again if the mood of the people is reform minded on a few of the important worlds then it could happen. Mainly the people will have to live with the opinions of the nobility. At the risk of becoming to political it is not a stretch to say that our elite has a powerful influence on our opinions and we have a more or less democratic political structure. IN a system like the 3I I think most people see the Imperium as eternal and may have habitually follow the lead of the nobles.

3) Could the Imperium be saved from its decay by reforms, or will they just hasten its death by upsetting the uneasy balance between the opposing elements of its ruling class.

Again I thinking the power here rests with the nobility. If they are an inward looking, self serving group of petty power seekers then the whole thing is going to come apart. If they think that their power flows from the existing power structure and they wish to preserve that overall structure for their posterity and the myth of the Imperium then he could be wildly successful. Reformers will work tirelessly, those that don’t care will pushed to the side and a after a few smaller rebellions the marginalized old guard will be swept out of the way by force.
 
Yes, these are interesting questions. Would Dulinor be viewed as a Cromwell or Washington (who was never elected, afterall). When presenting the scenario, I was thinking that we would rapidly introduce his reforms, and these in turn would engender further reforms...that Dulinor himself could have hoped for but would have not had the courage to implement.
 
Yes, these are interesting questions. Would Dulinor be viewed as a Cromwell or Washington (who was never elected, afterall). When presenting the scenario, I was thinking that we would rapidly introduce his reforms, and these in turn would engender further reforms...that Dulinor himself could have hoped for but would have not had the courage to implement.
 
Yes, these are interesting questions. Would Dulinor be viewed as a Cromwell or Washington (who was never elected, afterall). When presenting the scenario, I was thinking that we would rapidly introduce his reforms, and these in turn would engender further reforms...that Dulinor himself could have hoped for but would have not had the courage to implement.
 
I have not played out such a scenario, but would really the Real Strephon and Margaret show up as claimants to the throne? Strephon migh, even though I always felt he was just a deluded robot (one of Dave N's mistakes of erasing the doubt, in my opinion) and didn't Margaret show up when Lucan had shown himself a vilain? If he never get's a chance, then she would never appear to claim the throne.
 
I have not played out such a scenario, but would really the Real Strephon and Margaret show up as claimants to the throne? Strephon migh, even though I always felt he was just a deluded robot (one of Dave N's mistakes of erasing the doubt, in my opinion) and didn't Margaret show up when Lucan had shown himself a vilain? If he never get's a chance, then she would never appear to claim the throne.
 
I have not played out such a scenario, but would really the Real Strephon and Margaret show up as claimants to the throne? Strephon migh, even though I always felt he was just a deluded robot (one of Dave N's mistakes of erasing the doubt, in my opinion) and didn't Margaret show up when Lucan had shown himself a vilain? If he never get's a chance, then she would never appear to claim the throne.
 
Margaret would represent the plutocratic nobility, and hence feel threatened when power was suddenly shifted over to the people. Furthermore, as a distant relative to Stephon, not also, believing the Real Stephon's claim would mount a claim through nerfarious ways.
 
Margaret would represent the plutocratic nobility, and hence feel threatened when power was suddenly shifted over to the people. Furthermore, as a distant relative to Stephon, not also, believing the Real Stephon's claim would mount a claim through nerfarious ways.
 
Margaret would represent the plutocratic nobility, and hence feel threatened when power was suddenly shifted over to the people. Furthermore, as a distant relative to Stephon, not also, believing the Real Stephon's claim would mount a claim through nerfarious ways.
 
Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
IN a system like the 3I I think most people see the Imperium as eternal and may have habitually follow the lead of the nobles.
Click to expand...
Revolutions occur when the masses understand that the system they live under is not an eternal structure handed down by God (or Cleon or whatever) but a Human-made structure that serves the interests of one group or another. Most peasants and city-dwellers in France probably thought for centuries that the semi-feudal absolute monarchy was eternal, right up to the point when the circumstances (especially the economic ones) caused the masses to realize that the structure was nothing more than the rule of the few over the many under various disguises, and hence the 1789 Revolution. Sure, the elite rules the opinions of the masses under most circumstances - but at certain points in history the contrast between these opinions and the reality reaches such a high peak that causes these opinions to shatter and be replaced, for a time, by the interests of the masses (more or less); even the worst police state (except for the Zhodani who REALLY control the thoughts of their Proles) cannot prevent this from happening - even East Germany, with about ONE THIRD of its population employed as agents of the Shtazi (state security police), reached the point in 1989 when the masses went out and smashed the Berlin Wall, state spies and rotten bureaucrats be damned. The British Empire, one of the greatest military powers in the 18th century, was forced out of North America by the colonial revolt of 1776 that gave rise to the USA.

For the most of history, the masses are a sleeping dragon. But when that dragon awakens, stimulated by the events of the era, no chains and no walls can hold it. This is why most governments, from the worst dictatorship to the some most enlightened democracies, invest so much in propaganda, in police forces, even in welfare (keep the masses happy and the likelihood of a revolt falls dramatically - see the Roman Empire's tactic of "Bread and Circuses").

And reforms might trigger revolution far more effectively than means of repression - as, in certain cases, they demonstrate the fact that the sate machine is not an eternal structure but a man-modifyable one. Give the masses a finger, under the right circumstances, and they'll want the whole hand - as they'll understand that the clenched fist is not the product of god but the result of the actions of man. Under Stalinism, Eastern Europe was full of repressive, jack-booted police states, but open revolts were rare (Prague and a few others). However, when Gurbachev, with his reforms, showed that the state machine could be changed for the betterment of the masses, everything fell apart - both due to the fact that the state displayed a clear inability to repress the masses, and because change was displayed as possible. Sure, there wasn't a popular rebellion in Russia in 1989, but there were uprisings and mass revolts all over Eastern Europe, resulting in regime changes and, in one case (Romania), the execution of the former tyrant. Unfortunately, the unorganized nature of these revolts gave rise to various opportunist elements, mostly within the former bureaucracy, who sought to plunder the remnants of the old economy; and to various new tyrants who saw an opportunity to start empire-building over the ashes of the old empire (Milosevic [sp?] in former Yugoslavia, for example).
 
Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
IN a system like the 3I I think most people see the Imperium as eternal and may have habitually follow the lead of the nobles.
Click to expand...
Revolutions occur when the masses understand that the system they live under is not an eternal structure handed down by God (or Cleon or whatever) but a Human-made structure that serves the interests of one group or another. Most peasants and city-dwellers in France probably thought for centuries that the semi-feudal absolute monarchy was eternal, right up to the point when the circumstances (especially the economic ones) caused the masses to realize that the structure was nothing more than the rule of the few over the many under various disguises, and hence the 1789 Revolution. Sure, the elite rules the opinions of the masses under most circumstances - but at certain points in history the contrast between these opinions and the reality reaches such a high peak that causes these opinions to shatter and be replaced, for a time, by the interests of the masses (more or less); even the worst police state (except for the Zhodani who REALLY control the thoughts of their Proles) cannot prevent this from happening - even East Germany, with about ONE THIRD of its population employed as agents of the Shtazi (state security police), reached the point in 1989 when the masses went out and smashed the Berlin Wall, state spies and rotten bureaucrats be damned. The British Empire, one of the greatest military powers in the 18th century, was forced out of North America by the colonial revolt of 1776 that gave rise to the USA.

For the most of history, the masses are a sleeping dragon. But when that dragon awakens, stimulated by the events of the era, no chains and no walls can hold it. This is why most governments, from the worst dictatorship to the some most enlightened democracies, invest so much in propaganda, in police forces, even in welfare (keep the masses happy and the likelihood of a revolt falls dramatically - see the Roman Empire's tactic of "Bread and Circuses").

And reforms might trigger revolution far more effectively than means of repression - as, in certain cases, they demonstrate the fact that the sate machine is not an eternal structure but a man-modifyable one. Give the masses a finger, under the right circumstances, and they'll want the whole hand - as they'll understand that the clenched fist is not the product of god but the result of the actions of man. Under Stalinism, Eastern Europe was full of repressive, jack-booted police states, but open revolts were rare (Prague and a few others). However, when Gurbachev, with his reforms, showed that the state machine could be changed for the betterment of the masses, everything fell apart - both due to the fact that the state displayed a clear inability to repress the masses, and because change was displayed as possible. Sure, there wasn't a popular rebellion in Russia in 1989, but there were uprisings and mass revolts all over Eastern Europe, resulting in regime changes and, in one case (Romania), the execution of the former tyrant. Unfortunately, the unorganized nature of these revolts gave rise to various opportunist elements, mostly within the former bureaucracy, who sought to plunder the remnants of the old economy; and to various new tyrants who saw an opportunity to start empire-building over the ashes of the old empire (Milosevic [sp?] in former Yugoslavia, for example).
 
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