Ending the Rebellion or restarting it differently

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Daryen,

Another factor in Dulinor deciding to appoint Norris is that it would create an Archduke who owes his title to Dulinor.

All the others are "Strephon's men". Norris would be the first (and only?) Archduke who is "Dulinor's man"

Dulinor would have had to appoint one more archduke, since offing Strephon created a vacancy in the Domain of Sylea. Presumably he would have taken over as Archduke of Sylea himself and appointed someone else (his brother?) as Archduke of Ilelish. Or would he have kept both titles and ruled Ilelish by proxy?


Hans

 

[jfetters]

Between his brother and daughter, I think he doesn't have to worry about either.

But given normal succession rules, I would imagine that it would go to Isis.

(As an aside, I always wondered how she dealt with her father's actions since she was supposedly best friends with the Grand Princess.)

 

[jfetters]

Between his brother and daughter, I think he doesn't have to worry about either.

But given normal succession rules, I would imagine that it would go to Isis.

(As an aside, I always wondered how she dealt with her father's actions since she was supposedly best friends with the Grand Princess.)

 

[jfetters]

Between his brother and daughter, I think he doesn't have to worry about either.

But given normal succession rules, I would imagine that it would go to Isis.

(As an aside, I always wondered how she dealt with her father's actions since she was supposedly best friends with the Grand Princess.)

 

[Vargas]

I might have posted this here before . . .

My approach is for everything to run pretty much to script except that Lucan is ultimately deposed by a cadre of admirals tired of his botching the military end of things. Charted Space is broken into the various government entities shown in the Rebellion Sourcebook and the map remains static from there. The 'Third Imperium' is tied down fighting the Solomani and everyone else is just happy to have their chunk of things. Fighting happens but it's not the whole Black War destroy everything approach but rather border skirmishes and raids.

Note: There is NO hard times or virus, just a nice somewhat chaotic setting to adventure in.

 

[Vargas]

I might have posted this here before . . .

My approach is for everything to run pretty much to script except that Lucan is ultimately deposed by a cadre of admirals tired of his botching the military end of things. Charted Space is broken into the various government entities shown in the Rebellion Sourcebook and the map remains static from there. The 'Third Imperium' is tied down fighting the Solomani and everyone else is just happy to have their chunk of things. Fighting happens but it's not the whole Black War destroy everything approach but rather border skirmishes and raids.

Note: There is NO hard times or virus, just a nice somewhat chaotic setting to adventure in.

 

[Vargas]

I might have posted this here before . . .

My approach is for everything to run pretty much to script except that Lucan is ultimately deposed by a cadre of admirals tired of his botching the military end of things. Charted Space is broken into the various government entities shown in the Rebellion Sourcebook and the map remains static from there. The 'Third Imperium' is tied down fighting the Solomani and everyone else is just happy to have their chunk of things. Fighting happens but it's not the whole Black War destroy everything approach but rather border skirmishes and raids.

Note: There is NO hard times or virus, just a nice somewhat chaotic setting to adventure in.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
Yes, Usani was/is the subsector capital. However, Deneb has always been the sector capital.

Do you have a quote to that effect? (I'm not trying to bust your chops. It's just that in my work on the history of the Spinward Marches, I occasionally make reference to conditions in Deneb, and my tentative (and non-canonical) history has another world as the sector capital to begin with and only transferred later (because Deneb resisted inclusion into the Imperium for a long time). If there is a reference to Deneb as the sector capital in the past, I want to know of it, so I can change my stuff to fit).</font>[/QUOTE]Fair question.

In the UWP lists in both RSB and MTJ#3, 1925 Deneb is given the "Cx" designation, indicating it is the sector capital during the 1117 timeframe. And seeing as DGP made almost no changes to the UWPs outside allegiance, I have to assume Deneb was the sector capital for a long time.

FWIW, the Regency ended up making Deneb both the sector and subsector capital, after Usani was left too exposed to the Quarantine Zone. As partial compensation, Usani becomes the capital of the frontier zone.

Incidentally, if the Duke of Usani isn't the sector duke, who is? Remember, the sector duke is always one of the subsector dukes.

Haven't a clue.

There are several ways it can work, but I don't know which would work best.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
Yes, Usani was/is the subsector capital. However, Deneb has always been the sector capital.

Do you have a quote to that effect? (I'm not trying to bust your chops. It's just that in my work on the history of the Spinward Marches, I occasionally make reference to conditions in Deneb, and my tentative (and non-canonical) history has another world as the sector capital to begin with and only transferred later (because Deneb resisted inclusion into the Imperium for a long time). If there is a reference to Deneb as the sector capital in the past, I want to know of it, so I can change my stuff to fit).</font>[/QUOTE]Fair question.

In the UWP lists in both RSB and MTJ#3, 1925 Deneb is given the "Cx" designation, indicating it is the sector capital during the 1117 timeframe. And seeing as DGP made almost no changes to the UWPs outside allegiance, I have to assume Deneb was the sector capital for a long time.

FWIW, the Regency ended up making Deneb both the sector and subsector capital, after Usani was left too exposed to the Quarantine Zone. As partial compensation, Usani becomes the capital of the frontier zone.

Incidentally, if the Duke of Usani isn't the sector duke, who is? Remember, the sector duke is always one of the subsector dukes.

Haven't a clue.

There are several ways it can work, but I don't know which would work best.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by daryen:
Yes, Usani was/is the subsector capital. However, Deneb has always been the sector capital.

Do you have a quote to that effect? (I'm not trying to bust your chops. It's just that in my work on the history of the Spinward Marches, I occasionally make reference to conditions in Deneb, and my tentative (and non-canonical) history has another world as the sector capital to begin with and only transferred later (because Deneb resisted inclusion into the Imperium for a long time). If there is a reference to Deneb as the sector capital in the past, I want to know of it, so I can change my stuff to fit).</font>[/QUOTE]Fair question.

In the UWP lists in both RSB and MTJ#3, 1925 Deneb is given the "Cx" designation, indicating it is the sector capital during the 1117 timeframe. And seeing as DGP made almost no changes to the UWPs outside allegiance, I have to assume Deneb was the sector capital for a long time.

FWIW, the Regency ended up making Deneb both the sector and subsector capital, after Usani was left too exposed to the Quarantine Zone. As partial compensation, Usani becomes the capital of the frontier zone.

Incidentally, if the Duke of Usani isn't the sector duke, who is? Remember, the sector duke is always one of the subsector dukes.

Haven't a clue.

There are several ways it can work, but I don't know which would work best.

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

WARNING: This rambles.

I'd like to know more about the growing regionalization of the pre-Rebellion Imperium. As someone has mentioned, the Imperium was in a state of decline.

I'm running a Hard Times campaign, and am trying to develop a stronger backstory as to why the Imperium disintegrated into a multifaction Galactic War over the Assassination of the Emperor. The regionalization concept gives a good rationale since it lends itself to fragmentation.

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

WARNING: This rambles.

I'd like to know more about the growing regionalization of the pre-Rebellion Imperium. As someone has mentioned, the Imperium was in a state of decline.

I'm running a Hard Times campaign, and am trying to develop a stronger backstory as to why the Imperium disintegrated into a multifaction Galactic War over the Assassination of the Emperor. The regionalization concept gives a good rationale since it lends itself to fragmentation.

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

WARNING: This rambles.

I'd like to know more about the growing regionalization of the pre-Rebellion Imperium. As someone has mentioned, the Imperium was in a state of decline.

I'm running a Hard Times campaign, and am trying to develop a stronger backstory as to why the Imperium disintegrated into a multifaction Galactic War over the Assassination of the Emperor. The regionalization concept gives a good rationale since it lends itself to fragmentation.

 

[kafka47]

First, and foremost, the Imperium was dominated by Homeworldism. Most people would only Traveller between 3-6 star systems in their lifetime and that is if they ever left their homeworld.

Second, there is a fracture along the lines of governance, as a feudal system one paid allegance to one's immediate rank above. Creating many little fiefs to which someone had to answer to a Noble, who as the GA wore on was interested in self preservation over a concept of noblese oblige.

Third, we have subsector Dukes who are viving for the attention of the Sector Dukes. Each one trying to show their best, even to the point of linking similar worlds together to create what would later become micro-polities.

Fourth, there is an ethnic dimension, as several cultural groups diffuse across a sector these form allegances across the Sector.

Lastly, the Archdukes all play the game of High Politics of the Court and seek to advance their position within it, even if they only travel there once.

Add to that the Armed Forces are spilt with Planetary Armies & Law Enforcement and Colonial Navies each trying to maximize their advantage over Imperial institutions.

By the late Imperia reckoning, the Imperium no longer presented a vision that could sustain itself, it had to dramatically reinvent itself. It was in crisis..."The old is dying, and the new is struggling to be born; in this interregnum there arises a great diversity of morbid symptoms appear."

 

[kafka47]

First, and foremost, the Imperium was dominated by Homeworldism. Most people would only Traveller between 3-6 star systems in their lifetime and that is if they ever left their homeworld.

Second, there is a fracture along the lines of governance, as a feudal system one paid allegance to one's immediate rank above. Creating many little fiefs to which someone had to answer to a Noble, who as the GA wore on was interested in self preservation over a concept of noblese oblige.

Third, we have subsector Dukes who are viving for the attention of the Sector Dukes. Each one trying to show their best, even to the point of linking similar worlds together to create what would later become micro-polities.

Fourth, there is an ethnic dimension, as several cultural groups diffuse across a sector these form allegances across the Sector.

Lastly, the Archdukes all play the game of High Politics of the Court and seek to advance their position within it, even if they only travel there once.

Add to that the Armed Forces are spilt with Planetary Armies & Law Enforcement and Colonial Navies each trying to maximize their advantage over Imperial institutions.

By the late Imperia reckoning, the Imperium no longer presented a vision that could sustain itself, it had to dramatically reinvent itself. It was in crisis..."The old is dying, and the new is struggling to be born; in this interregnum there arises a great diversity of morbid symptoms appear."

 

[kafka47]

First, and foremost, the Imperium was dominated by Homeworldism. Most people would only Traveller between 3-6 star systems in their lifetime and that is if they ever left their homeworld.

Second, there is a fracture along the lines of governance, as a feudal system one paid allegance to one's immediate rank above. Creating many little fiefs to which someone had to answer to a Noble, who as the GA wore on was interested in self preservation over a concept of noblese oblige.

Third, we have subsector Dukes who are viving for the attention of the Sector Dukes. Each one trying to show their best, even to the point of linking similar worlds together to create what would later become micro-polities.

Fourth, there is an ethnic dimension, as several cultural groups diffuse across a sector these form allegances across the Sector.

Lastly, the Archdukes all play the game of High Politics of the Court and seek to advance their position within it, even if they only travel there once.

Add to that the Armed Forces are spilt with Planetary Armies & Law Enforcement and Colonial Navies each trying to maximize their advantage over Imperial institutions.

By the late Imperia reckoning, the Imperium no longer presented a vision that could sustain itself, it had to dramatically reinvent itself. It was in crisis..."The old is dying, and the new is struggling to be born; in this interregnum there arises a great diversity of morbid symptoms appear."

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

The question then becomes, "Has the Imperium always been dominated by Homeworldism?"

If so, then the Rebellion war becomes less of a Revolution and more of a "World War" on an interstellar scale as the forces you've listed slug it out for differing and conflicting goals. For example. (note that individual's names refer less to that single individual and more towards the faction/region that individual represents)

Dulinor wants to bring the Imperium under (his) centralized control.

Lucan operates under the delusion that the Imperium is under centralized control, and wants to bring all of the factions "back in line".

Margaret understands that the Imperium was more of a vehicle for interstellar trade and commerce, and wants to wait out the hostilities so business can return to normal. I'd venture that this would be Strephon's goal as well (except that he would have the additional goal of regaining his throne).

The Vilani would want to also return to a stable, business and commerce freindly environment, but with a stronger, more culturally Vilani slant.

Antares and Diabei are a harder to pin down, but if we make them more regional with unique cultures then they would resist and be targets for Dulinor and Lucan.

Norris wants to protect the idealized and romantic notion of "Imperium".

And the neighboring powers involve themselves based on their own strategic policies, some take the opportunity to invade and add a few systems at the Imperium's expense (like the Aslan and Solomani), others watch the war from the sidelines and keep the chaos from spreading into their territory (like the Zhodani). And Pirates just take advantage of the situation to "get rich quick".

This would be very hard on the infrastructure of the Imperium, provided the Dulinor and Lucan factions remain as tenacious as they have been presented in the MT source material.

Where I would really differ with the published source material is that each of these factions is more than the single person that represents them. In other words, It's not that Dulinor shot Strephon, but that the Dulinor-led faction attempted to seize central power in the Imperium. Thus, simply eliminating/deposing/arresting the leader of the faction may not stop the faction from continuing its fight.

Strephon's family would not necessarily need to be assassinated in this model. I'd still kill them off, because for the war to become as destructive as it does, we really need someone as petty and vindictive as Lucan in charge of his faction. If there were someone reasonable calling the shots, then cooler heads prevail, and that would keep everything from collapsing. Or at least prevent the "scorched earth" policies from gutting four or five sectors.

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

The question then becomes, "Has the Imperium always been dominated by Homeworldism?"

If so, then the Rebellion war becomes less of a Revolution and more of a "World War" on an interstellar scale as the forces you've listed slug it out for differing and conflicting goals. For example. (note that individual's names refer less to that single individual and more towards the faction/region that individual represents)

Dulinor wants to bring the Imperium under (his) centralized control.

Lucan operates under the delusion that the Imperium is under centralized control, and wants to bring all of the factions "back in line".

Margaret understands that the Imperium was more of a vehicle for interstellar trade and commerce, and wants to wait out the hostilities so business can return to normal. I'd venture that this would be Strephon's goal as well (except that he would have the additional goal of regaining his throne).

The Vilani would want to also return to a stable, business and commerce freindly environment, but with a stronger, more culturally Vilani slant.

Antares and Diabei are a harder to pin down, but if we make them more regional with unique cultures then they would resist and be targets for Dulinor and Lucan.

Norris wants to protect the idealized and romantic notion of "Imperium".

And the neighboring powers involve themselves based on their own strategic policies, some take the opportunity to invade and add a few systems at the Imperium's expense (like the Aslan and Solomani), others watch the war from the sidelines and keep the chaos from spreading into their territory (like the Zhodani). And Pirates just take advantage of the situation to "get rich quick".

This would be very hard on the infrastructure of the Imperium, provided the Dulinor and Lucan factions remain as tenacious as they have been presented in the MT source material.

Where I would really differ with the published source material is that each of these factions is more than the single person that represents them. In other words, It's not that Dulinor shot Strephon, but that the Dulinor-led faction attempted to seize central power in the Imperium. Thus, simply eliminating/deposing/arresting the leader of the faction may not stop the faction from continuing its fight.

Strephon's family would not necessarily need to be assassinated in this model. I'd still kill them off, because for the war to become as destructive as it does, we really need someone as petty and vindictive as Lucan in charge of his faction. If there were someone reasonable calling the shots, then cooler heads prevail, and that would keep everything from collapsing. Or at least prevent the "scorched earth" policies from gutting four or five sectors.

 

[Stei'awtliyrl]

The question then becomes, "Has the Imperium always been dominated by Homeworldism?"

If so, then the Rebellion war becomes less of a Revolution and more of a "World War" on an interstellar scale as the forces you've listed slug it out for differing and conflicting goals. For example. (note that individual's names refer less to that single individual and more towards the faction/region that individual represents)

Dulinor wants to bring the Imperium under (his) centralized control.

Lucan operates under the delusion that the Imperium is under centralized control, and wants to bring all of the factions "back in line".

Margaret understands that the Imperium was more of a vehicle for interstellar trade and commerce, and wants to wait out the hostilities so business can return to normal. I'd venture that this would be Strephon's goal as well (except that he would have the additional goal of regaining his throne).

The Vilani would want to also return to a stable, business and commerce freindly environment, but with a stronger, more culturally Vilani slant.

Antares and Diabei are a harder to pin down, but if we make them more regional with unique cultures then they would resist and be targets for Dulinor and Lucan.

Norris wants to protect the idealized and romantic notion of "Imperium".

And the neighboring powers involve themselves based on their own strategic policies, some take the opportunity to invade and add a few systems at the Imperium's expense (like the Aslan and Solomani), others watch the war from the sidelines and keep the chaos from spreading into their territory (like the Zhodani). And Pirates just take advantage of the situation to "get rich quick".

This would be very hard on the infrastructure of the Imperium, provided the Dulinor and Lucan factions remain as tenacious as they have been presented in the MT source material.

Where I would really differ with the published source material is that each of these factions is more than the single person that represents them. In other words, It's not that Dulinor shot Strephon, but that the Dulinor-led faction attempted to seize central power in the Imperium. Thus, simply eliminating/deposing/arresting the leader of the faction may not stop the faction from continuing its fight.

Strephon's family would not necessarily need to be assassinated in this model. I'd still kill them off, because for the war to become as destructive as it does, we really need someone as petty and vindictive as Lucan in charge of his faction. If there were someone reasonable calling the shots, then cooler heads prevail, and that would keep everything from collapsing. Or at least prevent the "scorched earth" policies from gutting four or five sectors.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Stei'awtliyrl:
I'm running a Hard Times campaign, and am trying to develop a stronger backstory as to why the Imperium disintegrated into a multifaction Galactic War over the Assassination of the Emperor. The regionalization concept gives a good rationale since it lends itself to fragmentation.

First and foremost, I'm happy to meet another fan of HT; it is one of my favorite versions of the OTU, on one hand not dominated by a conservative monolith (which was the Classical Era's Imperium, to a degree), and on the other hand not dominated by the uniform destruction that TNE tends to lean towards. This is a time of hope; of a struggle against the Twilight which threatens to become a Night; of a struggle to forge a new dawn out of the impending darkness.

Why did the Imperium collapse into a multitude of warring factions? I'd say that too many interests of the old ruling class were localized and conflicting, that the "introspective" and "stagnant" Core (see some of the older CT adventures) has lost power to the centrifugal force of regional interests.

By killing Strephon and then fleeing to his power-base of Illelish, Dulinor killed the illusion of the Imperium - the illusion that all factions of the aristocracy-corporate complex had a shared interest of having a central power on Core. Then all was up to grabs and the local nobility started fighting each other to become top-dog in the new order of things.

The basis of all of this was the economical stagnation evident in the CT era. The Imperium was hemmed from all sides by well-established polities it could not defeat, and thus could not look for new, lucrative external markets; and the internal markets were getting less and less profitable due to local technological development in the periphery. Frontiers are a powerful pump for economical development, as they serve both as markets and as new opportunity for investment. When the frontiers became established areas, this pump was broken, profits from industry and R&D declined, and profit from speculation skyrocketed; the competition for the ever fewer truely lucrative markets became more and more violent. From this came the stagnation of the core and the growing factionalism of the Imperial ruling class. Thus comes the powderkeg of the CT-era Imperium; Dulinor merely delivied the spark.