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Ending the Rebellion or restarting it differently

Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
IN a system like the 3I I think most people see the Imperium as eternal and may have habitually follow the lead of the nobles.
Revolutions occur when the masses understand that the system they live under is not an eternal structure handed down by God (or Cleon or whatever) but a Human-made structure that serves the interests of one group or another. Most peasants and city-dwellers in France probably thought for centuries that the semi-feudal absolute monarchy was eternal, right up to the point when the circumstances (especially the economic ones) caused the masses to realize that the structure was nothing more than the rule of the few over the many under various disguises, and hence the 1789 Revolution. Sure, the elite rules the opinions of the masses under most circumstances - but at certain points in history the contrast between these opinions and the reality reaches such a high peak that causes these opinions to shatter and be replaced, for a time, by the interests of the masses (more or less); even the worst police state (except for the Zhodani who REALLY control the thoughts of their Proles) cannot prevent this from happening - even East Germany, with about ONE THIRD of its population employed as agents of the Shtazi (state security police), reached the point in 1989 when the masses went out and smashed the Berlin Wall, state spies and rotten bureaucrats be damned. The British Empire, one of the greatest military powers in the 18th century, was forced out of North America by the colonial revolt of 1776 that gave rise to the USA.

For the most of history, the masses are a sleeping dragon. But when that dragon awakens, stimulated by the events of the era, no chains and no walls can hold it. This is why most governments, from the worst dictatorship to the some most enlightened democracies, invest so much in propaganda, in police forces, even in welfare (keep the masses happy and the likelihood of a revolt falls dramatically - see the Roman Empire's tactic of "Bread and Circuses").

And reforms might trigger revolution far more effectively than means of repression - as, in certain cases, they demonstrate the fact that the sate machine is not an eternal structure but a man-modifyable one. Give the masses a finger, under the right circumstances, and they'll want the whole hand - as they'll understand that the clenched fist is not the product of god but the result of the actions of man. Under Stalinism, Eastern Europe was full of repressive, jack-booted police states, but open revolts were rare (Prague and a few others). However, when Gurbachev, with his reforms, showed that the state machine could be changed for the betterment of the masses, everything fell apart - both due to the fact that the state displayed a clear inability to repress the masses, and because change was displayed as possible. Sure, there wasn't a popular rebellion in Russia in 1989, but there were uprisings and mass revolts all over Eastern Europe, resulting in regime changes and, in one case (Romania), the execution of the former tyrant. Unfortunately, the unorganized nature of these revolts gave rise to various opportunist elements, mostly within the former bureaucracy, who sought to plunder the remnants of the old economy; and to various new tyrants who saw an opportunity to start empire-building over the ashes of the old empire (Milosevic [sp?] in former Yugoslavia, for example).
 
Mtu,

The Imperium is too large to be stopped by the death of one individual. Also, when Dulinor's moment comes, he suddenly finds himself acting alone. The sheer weight of the event sheds his followers away as they slowly realize the alternative to no Imperium. Plus, I also have the Emperor just Buy thier loyalties behind the scenes.

Mechanically, this would be Strephon's umpteenth Dodge with Assassination. Dulinor learns the hard way of that experience. There is no duel, there is Dulinor drawing a Gun and then a Squad of Imperial Guard throwing him to the floor.

But: All is no longer business as usual with the emperor. The scale of the planned rebellion alarms both Imperium and People. The people begin to get fed up with the costly personal grievances of the Nobility.

There is a vast Anti-Noble sentiment throughout the Imperium, but it is not the lynching variety. Society begins to directly pressure Nobles into being more altruistic and less self-involved. Noble Acitivities start getting a LOT more publicity, and it becomes a trend in reporting.

Testimonials of people caught in the middle of small wars fought between noble's Merc forces have a chilling effect on popular opinion. There is also a move to freeze Noble Stocks and return them to Public Use.

This would allow for factions, even underground factions, against a backdrop of change and unrest.
the problems that potentially led to the REbellion would be there, but it may or may not take the form of secessionist governments. I tcould easily be taken to French Revolution proportions, or lead to a new try against Strephon... many possibilities and tiones possible.
 
Mtu,

The Imperium is too large to be stopped by the death of one individual. Also, when Dulinor's moment comes, he suddenly finds himself acting alone. The sheer weight of the event sheds his followers away as they slowly realize the alternative to no Imperium. Plus, I also have the Emperor just Buy thier loyalties behind the scenes.

Mechanically, this would be Strephon's umpteenth Dodge with Assassination. Dulinor learns the hard way of that experience. There is no duel, there is Dulinor drawing a Gun and then a Squad of Imperial Guard throwing him to the floor.

But: All is no longer business as usual with the emperor. The scale of the planned rebellion alarms both Imperium and People. The people begin to get fed up with the costly personal grievances of the Nobility.

There is a vast Anti-Noble sentiment throughout the Imperium, but it is not the lynching variety. Society begins to directly pressure Nobles into being more altruistic and less self-involved. Noble Acitivities start getting a LOT more publicity, and it becomes a trend in reporting.

Testimonials of people caught in the middle of small wars fought between noble's Merc forces have a chilling effect on popular opinion. There is also a move to freeze Noble Stocks and return them to Public Use.

This would allow for factions, even underground factions, against a backdrop of change and unrest.
the problems that potentially led to the REbellion would be there, but it may or may not take the form of secessionist governments. I tcould easily be taken to French Revolution proportions, or lead to a new try against Strephon... many possibilities and tiones possible.
 
Mtu,

The Imperium is too large to be stopped by the death of one individual. Also, when Dulinor's moment comes, he suddenly finds himself acting alone. The sheer weight of the event sheds his followers away as they slowly realize the alternative to no Imperium. Plus, I also have the Emperor just Buy thier loyalties behind the scenes.

Mechanically, this would be Strephon's umpteenth Dodge with Assassination. Dulinor learns the hard way of that experience. There is no duel, there is Dulinor drawing a Gun and then a Squad of Imperial Guard throwing him to the floor.

But: All is no longer business as usual with the emperor. The scale of the planned rebellion alarms both Imperium and People. The people begin to get fed up with the costly personal grievances of the Nobility.

There is a vast Anti-Noble sentiment throughout the Imperium, but it is not the lynching variety. Society begins to directly pressure Nobles into being more altruistic and less self-involved. Noble Acitivities start getting a LOT more publicity, and it becomes a trend in reporting.

Testimonials of people caught in the middle of small wars fought between noble's Merc forces have a chilling effect on popular opinion. There is also a move to freeze Noble Stocks and return them to Public Use.

This would allow for factions, even underground factions, against a backdrop of change and unrest.
the problems that potentially led to the REbellion would be there, but it may or may not take the form of secessionist governments. I tcould easily be taken to French Revolution proportions, or lead to a new try against Strephon... many possibilities and tiones possible.
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
Yes, these are interesting questions. Would Dulinor be viewed as a Cromwell or Washington (who was never elected, afterall).
Or will he be viewed as a Louis XIV (who transformed France from a feudal monarchy to an absolute monarchy, i.e. greatly diminshed the power of nobles)), as a Gurbachev (who, by trying to fix a dead system, demonstrated that it was dead) or as a Napoleon (who took over a rotten parlementary system not unlike the Moot and reformed it into a personal dictatorship).

When presenting the scenario, I was thinking that we would rapidly introduce his reforms, and these in turn would engender further reforms...that Dulinor himself could have hoped for but would have not had the courage to implement.
That's a great idea for a milieu - far more dynamic than the classical era OTU (change is in the air, but there are still many who oppose it - so plenty of interesting new conflict to involve the PCs in), yet allows the referee to introduce changes gradually rather than use the "start-over-McGuffin" of the Virus and wipe everything clean of civilization.

Hmmm... Why not publish it in Stellar Reaches #5 under the title "Times are a Changing"? I think this is one of the better versions of the OTU.
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
Yes, these are interesting questions. Would Dulinor be viewed as a Cromwell or Washington (who was never elected, afterall).
Or will he be viewed as a Louis XIV (who transformed France from a feudal monarchy to an absolute monarchy, i.e. greatly diminshed the power of nobles)), as a Gurbachev (who, by trying to fix a dead system, demonstrated that it was dead) or as a Napoleon (who took over a rotten parlementary system not unlike the Moot and reformed it into a personal dictatorship).

When presenting the scenario, I was thinking that we would rapidly introduce his reforms, and these in turn would engender further reforms...that Dulinor himself could have hoped for but would have not had the courage to implement.
That's a great idea for a milieu - far more dynamic than the classical era OTU (change is in the air, but there are still many who oppose it - so plenty of interesting new conflict to involve the PCs in), yet allows the referee to introduce changes gradually rather than use the "start-over-McGuffin" of the Virus and wipe everything clean of civilization.

Hmmm... Why not publish it in Stellar Reaches #5 under the title "Times are a Changing"? I think this is one of the better versions of the OTU.
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
Yes, these are interesting questions. Would Dulinor be viewed as a Cromwell or Washington (who was never elected, afterall).
Or will he be viewed as a Louis XIV (who transformed France from a feudal monarchy to an absolute monarchy, i.e. greatly diminshed the power of nobles)), as a Gurbachev (who, by trying to fix a dead system, demonstrated that it was dead) or as a Napoleon (who took over a rotten parlementary system not unlike the Moot and reformed it into a personal dictatorship).

When presenting the scenario, I was thinking that we would rapidly introduce his reforms, and these in turn would engender further reforms...that Dulinor himself could have hoped for but would have not had the courage to implement.
That's a great idea for a milieu - far more dynamic than the classical era OTU (change is in the air, but there are still many who oppose it - so plenty of interesting new conflict to involve the PCs in), yet allows the referee to introduce changes gradually rather than use the "start-over-McGuffin" of the Virus and wipe everything clean of civilization.

Hmmm... Why not publish it in Stellar Reaches #5 under the title "Times are a Changing"? I think this is one of the better versions of the OTU.
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
Margaret would represent the plutocratic nobility, and hence feel threatened when power was suddenly shifted over to the people. Furthermore, as a distant relative to Stephon, not also, believing the Real Stephon's claim would mount a claim through nerfarious ways.
About the "real" Strephon - is Dulinor will turn out as a positive figure, the harbringer of change to a rotten system, Strephon will get very little popular support, as he'll symbolize the old system and the undoing of the changes. In the cannon Rebellion, one of Strephon's main powerbases (IIRC) was the support from the masses who just wished that the wheel would roll back to the pre-Rebellion times because the Rebellion was a BIG BAD change. Strephon by himself lacked any real military or economic power in the beginning - fleets and worlds joined him as they saw him as their ticket out of the madness.

Margaret - now, here is the major threat IMHO - she has money, she has LOTS of money, loyal military forces, she has many people in the high levels of Dulinor's bureaucracy who would support her (when their privileuges will be threatened by the reforms) and who'll sabotage the system from within for her; she is even married to a very big megacorp owner. Hell, she might even sign a treaty with the Solomani government, dividing the Imperium (on the paper, ofcourse) between them and organizing a rimward-trailing invasion - making the Rebellion more of a war with clear lines than a very messy civil war.
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
Margaret would represent the plutocratic nobility, and hence feel threatened when power was suddenly shifted over to the people. Furthermore, as a distant relative to Stephon, not also, believing the Real Stephon's claim would mount a claim through nerfarious ways.
About the "real" Strephon - is Dulinor will turn out as a positive figure, the harbringer of change to a rotten system, Strephon will get very little popular support, as he'll symbolize the old system and the undoing of the changes. In the cannon Rebellion, one of Strephon's main powerbases (IIRC) was the support from the masses who just wished that the wheel would roll back to the pre-Rebellion times because the Rebellion was a BIG BAD change. Strephon by himself lacked any real military or economic power in the beginning - fleets and worlds joined him as they saw him as their ticket out of the madness.

Margaret - now, here is the major threat IMHO - she has money, she has LOTS of money, loyal military forces, she has many people in the high levels of Dulinor's bureaucracy who would support her (when their privileuges will be threatened by the reforms) and who'll sabotage the system from within for her; she is even married to a very big megacorp owner. Hell, she might even sign a treaty with the Solomani government, dividing the Imperium (on the paper, ofcourse) between them and organizing a rimward-trailing invasion - making the Rebellion more of a war with clear lines than a very messy civil war.
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
Margaret would represent the plutocratic nobility, and hence feel threatened when power was suddenly shifted over to the people. Furthermore, as a distant relative to Stephon, not also, believing the Real Stephon's claim would mount a claim through nerfarious ways.
About the "real" Strephon - is Dulinor will turn out as a positive figure, the harbringer of change to a rotten system, Strephon will get very little popular support, as he'll symbolize the old system and the undoing of the changes. In the cannon Rebellion, one of Strephon's main powerbases (IIRC) was the support from the masses who just wished that the wheel would roll back to the pre-Rebellion times because the Rebellion was a BIG BAD change. Strephon by himself lacked any real military or economic power in the beginning - fleets and worlds joined him as they saw him as their ticket out of the madness.

Margaret - now, here is the major threat IMHO - she has money, she has LOTS of money, loyal military forces, she has many people in the high levels of Dulinor's bureaucracy who would support her (when their privileuges will be threatened by the reforms) and who'll sabotage the system from within for her; she is even married to a very big megacorp owner. Hell, she might even sign a treaty with the Solomani government, dividing the Imperium (on the paper, ofcourse) between them and organizing a rimward-trailing invasion - making the Rebellion more of a war with clear lines than a very messy civil war.
 
Dulinor becomes a symbol of change before the people realize that they themselves must be the agent of change. Therefore, yes, Dulinor is the tragic Gorbachev figure rather the Gorbachev, the dictator as many in the nascent democracy movement remember him.

Real Stephon is the remainder of the Conservative Guard who rallyed behind him, as the preserver of the Status Quo.

Whereas, Maragaret is more sutle creating the conditions for a return of the status quo under a new name whilst being constrained by new forces that are challenging her and the elite.

So, Dulinor is not so much as an enlightened monarch but rather a reluctant President of a new situation of his own creation but not under his control.
 
Dulinor becomes a symbol of change before the people realize that they themselves must be the agent of change. Therefore, yes, Dulinor is the tragic Gorbachev figure rather the Gorbachev, the dictator as many in the nascent democracy movement remember him.

Real Stephon is the remainder of the Conservative Guard who rallyed behind him, as the preserver of the Status Quo.

Whereas, Maragaret is more sutle creating the conditions for a return of the status quo under a new name whilst being constrained by new forces that are challenging her and the elite.

So, Dulinor is not so much as an enlightened monarch but rather a reluctant President of a new situation of his own creation but not under his control.
 
Dulinor becomes a symbol of change before the people realize that they themselves must be the agent of change. Therefore, yes, Dulinor is the tragic Gorbachev figure rather the Gorbachev, the dictator as many in the nascent democracy movement remember him.

Real Stephon is the remainder of the Conservative Guard who rallyed behind him, as the preserver of the Status Quo.

Whereas, Maragaret is more sutle creating the conditions for a return of the status quo under a new name whilst being constrained by new forces that are challenging her and the elite.

So, Dulinor is not so much as an enlightened monarch but rather a reluctant President of a new situation of his own creation but not under his control.
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
So, Dulinor is not so much as an enlightened monarch but rather a reluctant President of a new situation of his own creation but not under his control.
That is true.

His original intentions were to become an enlightened monarch (probably uaing some sort of a limited constitutional monarchy system alongside the nobility while reducing the nobles' power only partially and gradually), to correct a few of the system's flaws without changing the essence of the system. However, the ripple effects of his initial reforms would possibly even tansform the Imperium into something far closer to a republic...
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
So, Dulinor is not so much as an enlightened monarch but rather a reluctant President of a new situation of his own creation but not under his control.
That is true.

His original intentions were to become an enlightened monarch (probably uaing some sort of a limited constitutional monarchy system alongside the nobility while reducing the nobles' power only partially and gradually), to correct a few of the system's flaws without changing the essence of the system. However, the ripple effects of his initial reforms would possibly even tansform the Imperium into something far closer to a republic...
 
Originally posted by kafka47:
So, Dulinor is not so much as an enlightened monarch but rather a reluctant President of a new situation of his own creation but not under his control.
That is true.

His original intentions were to become an enlightened monarch (probably uaing some sort of a limited constitutional monarchy system alongside the nobility while reducing the nobles' power only partially and gradually), to correct a few of the system's flaws without changing the essence of the system. However, the ripple effects of his initial reforms would possibly even tansform the Imperium into something far closer to a republic...
 
Remember, here I am postulating a divergence from the OTU. I agree, that once his plan backfired, he would have been a gradualist but the intial impulseness of his actions unleashed events that were no longer under his control. Sort of what happened in the New Model Army or Shay's Rebellion in the US.
 
Remember, here I am postulating a divergence from the OTU. I agree, that once his plan backfired, he would have been a gradualist but the intial impulseness of his actions unleashed events that were no longer under his control. Sort of what happened in the New Model Army or Shay's Rebellion in the US.
 
Remember, here I am postulating a divergence from the OTU. I agree, that once his plan backfired, he would have been a gradualist but the intial impulseness of his actions unleashed events that were no longer under his control. Sort of what happened in the New Model Army or Shay's Rebellion in the US.
 
IIRC his main proposed reform in cannon MT was the transformation of all planetary governments into democracies (GOV 4; I don't recall him stating the method with which he intended to do so) and Imperial involvement in local affairs to the benefit of the population. To that I'd add the formation of a "House of Commons" (one representative per subsector?) alongside the Moot, and certain anti-trust laws effecting the megacorps. I don't know if a big noble as himself would have both the vision and the courage to initiate something serious about the landed nobles' estates, atleast at the beginning of his plans (even with monetary compensation), but the masses WILL probably take the initiative in this matter. Just imagine his emotional state when a big landed noble's estate will be nationalized by a democratic planetary government under public pressure - on one hand, this is exactly the kind of planetary government he wished for (receptive to the people's wishes on one hand and not afraid of the nobility on the other hand), but, on the other hand, he will start to realize the magnitude of the change underway - far, far beyond his plan.
 
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