Ending the Rebellion or restarting it differently

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Stei'awtliyrl:
I'm running a Hard Times campaign, and am trying to develop a stronger backstory as to why the Imperium disintegrated into a multifaction Galactic War over the Assassination of the Emperor. The regionalization concept gives a good rationale since it lends itself to fragmentation.

First and foremost, I'm happy to meet another fan of HT; it is one of my favorite versions of the OTU, on one hand not dominated by a conservative monolith (which was the Classical Era's Imperium, to a degree), and on the other hand not dominated by the uniform destruction that TNE tends to lean towards. This is a time of hope; of a struggle against the Twilight which threatens to become a Night; of a struggle to forge a new dawn out of the impending darkness.

Why did the Imperium collapse into a multitude of warring factions? I'd say that too many interests of the old ruling class were localized and conflicting, that the "introspective" and "stagnant" Core (see some of the older CT adventures) has lost power to the centrifugal force of regional interests.

By killing Strephon and then fleeing to his power-base of Illelish, Dulinor killed the illusion of the Imperium - the illusion that all factions of the aristocracy-corporate complex had a shared interest of having a central power on Core. Then all was up to grabs and the local nobility started fighting each other to become top-dog in the new order of things.

The basis of all of this was the economical stagnation evident in the CT era. The Imperium was hemmed from all sides by well-established polities it could not defeat, and thus could not look for new, lucrative external markets; and the internal markets were getting less and less profitable due to local technological development in the periphery. Frontiers are a powerful pump for economical development, as they serve both as markets and as new opportunity for investment. When the frontiers became established areas, this pump was broken, profits from industry and R&D declined, and profit from speculation skyrocketed; the competition for the ever fewer truely lucrative markets became more and more violent. From this came the stagnation of the core and the growing factionalism of the Imperial ruling class. Thus comes the powderkeg of the CT-era Imperium; Dulinor merely delivied the spark.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Stei'awtliyrl:
I'm running a Hard Times campaign, and am trying to develop a stronger backstory as to why the Imperium disintegrated into a multifaction Galactic War over the Assassination of the Emperor. The regionalization concept gives a good rationale since it lends itself to fragmentation.

First and foremost, I'm happy to meet another fan of HT; it is one of my favorite versions of the OTU, on one hand not dominated by a conservative monolith (which was the Classical Era's Imperium, to a degree), and on the other hand not dominated by the uniform destruction that TNE tends to lean towards. This is a time of hope; of a struggle against the Twilight which threatens to become a Night; of a struggle to forge a new dawn out of the impending darkness.

Why did the Imperium collapse into a multitude of warring factions? I'd say that too many interests of the old ruling class were localized and conflicting, that the "introspective" and "stagnant" Core (see some of the older CT adventures) has lost power to the centrifugal force of regional interests.

By killing Strephon and then fleeing to his power-base of Illelish, Dulinor killed the illusion of the Imperium - the illusion that all factions of the aristocracy-corporate complex had a shared interest of having a central power on Core. Then all was up to grabs and the local nobility started fighting each other to become top-dog in the new order of things.

The basis of all of this was the economical stagnation evident in the CT era. The Imperium was hemmed from all sides by well-established polities it could not defeat, and thus could not look for new, lucrative external markets; and the internal markets were getting less and less profitable due to local technological development in the periphery. Frontiers are a powerful pump for economical development, as they serve both as markets and as new opportunity for investment. When the frontiers became established areas, this pump was broken, profits from industry and R&D declined, and profit from speculation skyrocketed; the competition for the ever fewer truely lucrative markets became more and more violent. From this came the stagnation of the core and the growing factionalism of the Imperial ruling class. Thus comes the powderkeg of the CT-era Imperium; Dulinor merely delivied the spark.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Stei'awtliyrl:
If so, then the Rebellion war becomes less of a Revolution and more of a "World War" on an interstellar scale as the forces you've listed slug it out for differing and conflicting goals.

Exactly. The Rebellion was never a Revolution - a Revolution is the overthrow of the present order by a class or faction of people who were (atleast relatively) excluded from the ruling circles beforehand. the Rebellion was a very bloody Civil War between rival factions of the Imperial ruling elite.

Dulinor saw the impending death of the Imperium and tried to save it as a whole (and then stay in power) by sacrificing a few of the "old guard" and a few of the old systems. Eventually (after having his planned "bloodless coup" turn into a drawn-out war) he got himself into the corner of Absolutism, reversing his initial reforms into an attempt to make himself an Absolute Monarch on the expense of the rest of the old elite. Initially I think his supporters would be the "progressive" layers of Nobility, dissatisfied with the constricting Imperial conservativism, combined with corporations who'll hope for Dulinor's reforms to open up new business opportunities in former taboo fields (cybernetics, biotechnology, gengineering, maybe even psionics). By 1128, he'd be quite alone, a sole tyrant based on an efficient military machine but with very little remaining popular support (see the Verge combine incident). A tragic figure, all in all - he didn't mean for it to go that way.

Lucan is the mouthpiece and prime example of the "Old Guard", of the backwards Imperial establishment and of nobles who fear any kind of change. On top of that he's a spoiled brat; but in the grand scheme of things, alot of reactionary, rigid-thinking generals and bureaucrats looking for a return to the "good old days" are his very willing exceutiners and vandals.

Margaret personifies the interests of the Tukera corporate, and, in extention, the so-called "sane" corporate elite. Given the Throne, she'd probably "liberalize" the Imperial economy, that is, greatly tighten the stranglehold of the megacorps on the Imperium at the expense of the bureaucracy and the navy.

The Vilani want things to get back to how they were before these damned Terrans stole away their Ziru Sirka. Ofcourse, this is a very good political platform for Vilani megacorp interests.

The Solomani see an opportunity to regain power, get their hands on choice markets, resources and industries, and (if possible) do to the Third Imperium what they did to the Ziru Sirka millenia before, just without the "long night" part. Ofcourse, this is also an opportunity for the more Hardliner factions of the SolParty to stir up nationalist sentiments among the masses and thus turn them against the more moderate factions. When the war will stagnate into a bloody stallmate, the Hardliners' popularity will come crashing down.

Where I would really differ with the published source material is that each of these factions is more than the single person that represents them. In other words, It's not that Dulinor shot Strephon, but that the Dulinor-led faction attempted to seize central power in the Imperium. Thus, simply eliminating/deposing/arresting the leader of the faction may not stop the faction from continuing its fight.

Exactly. Each faction represents a group of interests, and as long as the interesant parties are present, the faction would easily replace a dead leader. A partial exception by 1128 would probably be Dulinor and Lucan, both of which will isolate themselves from most powerbases and will probably (given no Virus) end up devastating the Core section in an uber-black-war, with the victor (probably Dulinor) finding himself the absolute monarch of a rickety tin-pot dictatorship encompassing a few subsectors at most.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Stei'awtliyrl:
If so, then the Rebellion war becomes less of a Revolution and more of a "World War" on an interstellar scale as the forces you've listed slug it out for differing and conflicting goals.

Exactly. The Rebellion was never a Revolution - a Revolution is the overthrow of the present order by a class or faction of people who were (atleast relatively) excluded from the ruling circles beforehand. the Rebellion was a very bloody Civil War between rival factions of the Imperial ruling elite.

Dulinor saw the impending death of the Imperium and tried to save it as a whole (and then stay in power) by sacrificing a few of the "old guard" and a few of the old systems. Eventually (after having his planned "bloodless coup" turn into a drawn-out war) he got himself into the corner of Absolutism, reversing his initial reforms into an attempt to make himself an Absolute Monarch on the expense of the rest of the old elite. Initially I think his supporters would be the "progressive" layers of Nobility, dissatisfied with the constricting Imperial conservativism, combined with corporations who'll hope for Dulinor's reforms to open up new business opportunities in former taboo fields (cybernetics, biotechnology, gengineering, maybe even psionics). By 1128, he'd be quite alone, a sole tyrant based on an efficient military machine but with very little remaining popular support (see the Verge combine incident). A tragic figure, all in all - he didn't mean for it to go that way.

Lucan is the mouthpiece and prime example of the "Old Guard", of the backwards Imperial establishment and of nobles who fear any kind of change. On top of that he's a spoiled brat; but in the grand scheme of things, alot of reactionary, rigid-thinking generals and bureaucrats looking for a return to the "good old days" are his very willing exceutiners and vandals.

Margaret personifies the interests of the Tukera corporate, and, in extention, the so-called "sane" corporate elite. Given the Throne, she'd probably "liberalize" the Imperial economy, that is, greatly tighten the stranglehold of the megacorps on the Imperium at the expense of the bureaucracy and the navy.

The Vilani want things to get back to how they were before these damned Terrans stole away their Ziru Sirka. Ofcourse, this is a very good political platform for Vilani megacorp interests.

The Solomani see an opportunity to regain power, get their hands on choice markets, resources and industries, and (if possible) do to the Third Imperium what they did to the Ziru Sirka millenia before, just without the "long night" part. Ofcourse, this is also an opportunity for the more Hardliner factions of the SolParty to stir up nationalist sentiments among the masses and thus turn them against the more moderate factions. When the war will stagnate into a bloody stallmate, the Hardliners' popularity will come crashing down.

Where I would really differ with the published source material is that each of these factions is more than the single person that represents them. In other words, It's not that Dulinor shot Strephon, but that the Dulinor-led faction attempted to seize central power in the Imperium. Thus, simply eliminating/deposing/arresting the leader of the faction may not stop the faction from continuing its fight.

Exactly. Each faction represents a group of interests, and as long as the interesant parties are present, the faction would easily replace a dead leader. A partial exception by 1128 would probably be Dulinor and Lucan, both of which will isolate themselves from most powerbases and will probably (given no Virus) end up devastating the Core section in an uber-black-war, with the victor (probably Dulinor) finding himself the absolute monarch of a rickety tin-pot dictatorship encompassing a few subsectors at most.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Stei'awtliyrl:
If so, then the Rebellion war becomes less of a Revolution and more of a "World War" on an interstellar scale as the forces you've listed slug it out for differing and conflicting goals.

Exactly. The Rebellion was never a Revolution - a Revolution is the overthrow of the present order by a class or faction of people who were (atleast relatively) excluded from the ruling circles beforehand. the Rebellion was a very bloody Civil War between rival factions of the Imperial ruling elite.

Dulinor saw the impending death of the Imperium and tried to save it as a whole (and then stay in power) by sacrificing a few of the "old guard" and a few of the old systems. Eventually (after having his planned "bloodless coup" turn into a drawn-out war) he got himself into the corner of Absolutism, reversing his initial reforms into an attempt to make himself an Absolute Monarch on the expense of the rest of the old elite. Initially I think his supporters would be the "progressive" layers of Nobility, dissatisfied with the constricting Imperial conservativism, combined with corporations who'll hope for Dulinor's reforms to open up new business opportunities in former taboo fields (cybernetics, biotechnology, gengineering, maybe even psionics). By 1128, he'd be quite alone, a sole tyrant based on an efficient military machine but with very little remaining popular support (see the Verge combine incident). A tragic figure, all in all - he didn't mean for it to go that way.

Lucan is the mouthpiece and prime example of the "Old Guard", of the backwards Imperial establishment and of nobles who fear any kind of change. On top of that he's a spoiled brat; but in the grand scheme of things, alot of reactionary, rigid-thinking generals and bureaucrats looking for a return to the "good old days" are his very willing exceutiners and vandals.

Margaret personifies the interests of the Tukera corporate, and, in extention, the so-called "sane" corporate elite. Given the Throne, she'd probably "liberalize" the Imperial economy, that is, greatly tighten the stranglehold of the megacorps on the Imperium at the expense of the bureaucracy and the navy.

The Vilani want things to get back to how they were before these damned Terrans stole away their Ziru Sirka. Ofcourse, this is a very good political platform for Vilani megacorp interests.

The Solomani see an opportunity to regain power, get their hands on choice markets, resources and industries, and (if possible) do to the Third Imperium what they did to the Ziru Sirka millenia before, just without the "long night" part. Ofcourse, this is also an opportunity for the more Hardliner factions of the SolParty to stir up nationalist sentiments among the masses and thus turn them against the more moderate factions. When the war will stagnate into a bloody stallmate, the Hardliners' popularity will come crashing down.

Where I would really differ with the published source material is that each of these factions is more than the single person that represents them. In other words, It's not that Dulinor shot Strephon, but that the Dulinor-led faction attempted to seize central power in the Imperium. Thus, simply eliminating/deposing/arresting the leader of the faction may not stop the faction from continuing its fight.

Exactly. Each faction represents a group of interests, and as long as the interesant parties are present, the faction would easily replace a dead leader. A partial exception by 1128 would probably be Dulinor and Lucan, both of which will isolate themselves from most powerbases and will probably (given no Virus) end up devastating the Core section in an uber-black-war, with the victor (probably Dulinor) finding himself the absolute monarch of a rickety tin-pot dictatorship encompassing a few subsectors at most.

 

[kafka47]

There is also the older theory that all social Revolutions starting with the American revolution are forms of global warfare. As the American revolution triggered the French to lend assistance to the fledging republic. Similarly, the interventions that followed in France with Napoleon and later the foreign interventions in the young Soviet Republic.

 

[kafka47]

There is also the older theory that all social Revolutions starting with the American revolution are forms of global warfare. As the American revolution triggered the French to lend assistance to the fledging republic. Similarly, the interventions that followed in France with Napoleon and later the foreign interventions in the young Soviet Republic.

 

[kafka47]

There is also the older theory that all social Revolutions starting with the American revolution are forms of global warfare. As the American revolution triggered the French to lend assistance to the fledging republic. Similarly, the interventions that followed in France with Napoleon and later the foreign interventions in the young Soviet Republic.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Stei'awtliyrl:
The question then becomes, "Has the Imperium always been dominated by Homeworldism?"

Stei'awtliyrl,

I'd answer that with a qualified 'Yes'.

The Imperium in an assembly of governments and not an assembly of peoples. The early Imperium didn't undertake 'hearts and minds' campaigns that convinced the masses to join. Instead it convinced governments to join.

When we remember that ~90% of the population of Chartered Space lives in ~10% of the systems (the so-called "hi-pop worlds"), we must concede that some systems are more important than others. When the early Imperium won over the hi-pop worlds in a given region, the dribs and drabs surrounding had no choice but to fall in line too. We see this dynamic again during the Rebellion. Each faction's war aims revolve around controlling hi-pop worlds. Lesser planets are in the mix only with regards to how they can be used to control the hi-pop worlds around them.

Remember the Long Night and try this little experiment. Pull out a sector map(1) and place a penny on every hi-pop world. Each of those pennies is the center of a potential Long Night pocket empire. Can you imagine the millennia of struggles between all them? Hot wars, cold wars, espionage, economic shenanigans, state sponsored piracy, revolts, rebellions, insurrections, the list is endless.

Then the Imperium shows up. It tells the ruling class of each pocket empire Join us and your worries are over. The little empire will be part of a huge empire, it will be defended from other powers, it will no longer have to worry culturally, economically, or militarily about the hi-pop world pocket empires around it, it will be able to have as much or as little off-world contact as it desires. What's more, the ruling classes of the hi-pop world pocket empire get automatically inducted into the ruling classes of the Imperium. So treaties are signed, patents of nobility granted, another clutch of worlds is absorbed by the Imperium, and the frontier moves on.

SThis means the Imperium is/was a power sharing agreement among hi-pop worlds. The idea of an 'imperium' was sold to those worlds alone, the other 90% didn't really matter and weren't often asked. This also means that the interests those hi-pop worlds have/had will drive the interests the Imperium has/had and the interests the Rebellion's factions have/had.

We see regionalism, factionalism, and 'homeworldism' all throughout the Third Imperium's history. There are acknowledged cultural regions. There are dynasties with associated bloodlines from specific internal regions. There are regional power bases used for both straightforward warfare in the case of the Civil War and Ilelish Revolt and for political struggles all the other time. There are even semi-autonomous regions; Antares, Solomani, Vegan, etc., inside a polity that supposedly doesn't allow multi-world groupings within it! Sectionalism occurs throughout the Imperium's long history.

The Imperium is/was a collection of factions that generally remembered it was better in the end to hang together than to hang apart - especially when hanging together and the benefits derived from it came at such a slight cost. Strephon and Dulinor both saw that this idea had either been forgotten or misplaced in the Classic Era Imperium(2). They both tried to reinforce the old idea, but in different manners.

Strephon chose to work the way the Imperium had always worked. He focussed on the governments making up the Imperium reminding them of their duties and responsibilities and holding them more accountable. He even reinvigorated a moribund level of the Imperial nobility to help with that oversight.

Dulinor chose to work through a different path; the masses. The Imperium had never really dealt with the masses, that was a job for the governments making up the Imperium. When governments were obstinate or flat out unwilling, Dulinor chose to sidestep those governments and make Imperial policies that directly effected the masses. The Imperial practice before had been to indirectly effect the masses through their local governments.

When the shots were fired, the governments making up the Imperium had been told two conflicting accounts of themselves for some time. Neither was good. Strephon was telling them that they were failing, that he expected them to do a better job, and he would see that they did it. Dulinor's opinion was worse, he was telling them that they weren't even need anymore and the Imperium would do their job!

Is it any wonder why the idea the Third Imperium wasn't in fashion by 1117? Two of it's strongest proponents were antagonising the very members that made it up!


Have fun,
Bill

1 - The Rim is not a good choice for this for various reasons.

2 - I believe the Rim War had a hand in this, but that's for another time.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Stei'awtliyrl:
The question then becomes, "Has the Imperium always been dominated by Homeworldism?"

Stei'awtliyrl,

I'd answer that with a qualified 'Yes'.

The Imperium in an assembly of governments and not an assembly of peoples. The early Imperium didn't undertake 'hearts and minds' campaigns that convinced the masses to join. Instead it convinced governments to join.

When we remember that ~90% of the population of Chartered Space lives in ~10% of the systems (the so-called "hi-pop worlds"), we must concede that some systems are more important than others. When the early Imperium won over the hi-pop worlds in a given region, the dribs and drabs surrounding had no choice but to fall in line too. We see this dynamic again during the Rebellion. Each faction's war aims revolve around controlling hi-pop worlds. Lesser planets are in the mix only with regards to how they can be used to control the hi-pop worlds around them.

Remember the Long Night and try this little experiment. Pull out a sector map(1) and place a penny on every hi-pop world. Each of those pennies is the center of a potential Long Night pocket empire. Can you imagine the millennia of struggles between all them? Hot wars, cold wars, espionage, economic shenanigans, state sponsored piracy, revolts, rebellions, insurrections, the list is endless.

Then the Imperium shows up. It tells the ruling class of each pocket empire Join us and your worries are over. The little empire will be part of a huge empire, it will be defended from other powers, it will no longer have to worry culturally, economically, or militarily about the hi-pop world pocket empires around it, it will be able to have as much or as little off-world contact as it desires. What's more, the ruling classes of the hi-pop world pocket empire get automatically inducted into the ruling classes of the Imperium. So treaties are signed, patents of nobility granted, another clutch of worlds is absorbed by the Imperium, and the frontier moves on.

SThis means the Imperium is/was a power sharing agreement among hi-pop worlds. The idea of an 'imperium' was sold to those worlds alone, the other 90% didn't really matter and weren't often asked. This also means that the interests those hi-pop worlds have/had will drive the interests the Imperium has/had and the interests the Rebellion's factions have/had.

We see regionalism, factionalism, and 'homeworldism' all throughout the Third Imperium's history. There are acknowledged cultural regions. There are dynasties with associated bloodlines from specific internal regions. There are regional power bases used for both straightforward warfare in the case of the Civil War and Ilelish Revolt and for political struggles all the other time. There are even semi-autonomous regions; Antares, Solomani, Vegan, etc., inside a polity that supposedly doesn't allow multi-world groupings within it! Sectionalism occurs throughout the Imperium's long history.

The Imperium is/was a collection of factions that generally remembered it was better in the end to hang together than to hang apart - especially when hanging together and the benefits derived from it came at such a slight cost. Strephon and Dulinor both saw that this idea had either been forgotten or misplaced in the Classic Era Imperium(2). They both tried to reinforce the old idea, but in different manners.

Strephon chose to work the way the Imperium had always worked. He focussed on the governments making up the Imperium reminding them of their duties and responsibilities and holding them more accountable. He even reinvigorated a moribund level of the Imperial nobility to help with that oversight.

Dulinor chose to work through a different path; the masses. The Imperium had never really dealt with the masses, that was a job for the governments making up the Imperium. When governments were obstinate or flat out unwilling, Dulinor chose to sidestep those governments and make Imperial policies that directly effected the masses. The Imperial practice before had been to indirectly effect the masses through their local governments.

When the shots were fired, the governments making up the Imperium had been told two conflicting accounts of themselves for some time. Neither was good. Strephon was telling them that they were failing, that he expected them to do a better job, and he would see that they did it. Dulinor's opinion was worse, he was telling them that they weren't even need anymore and the Imperium would do their job!

Is it any wonder why the idea the Third Imperium wasn't in fashion by 1117? Two of it's strongest proponents were antagonising the very members that made it up!


Have fun,
Bill

1 - The Rim is not a good choice for this for various reasons.

2 - I believe the Rim War had a hand in this, but that's for another time.

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by Stei'awtliyrl:
The question then becomes, "Has the Imperium always been dominated by Homeworldism?"

Stei'awtliyrl,

I'd answer that with a qualified 'Yes'.

The Imperium in an assembly of governments and not an assembly of peoples. The early Imperium didn't undertake 'hearts and minds' campaigns that convinced the masses to join. Instead it convinced governments to join.

When we remember that ~90% of the population of Chartered Space lives in ~10% of the systems (the so-called "hi-pop worlds"), we must concede that some systems are more important than others. When the early Imperium won over the hi-pop worlds in a given region, the dribs and drabs surrounding had no choice but to fall in line too. We see this dynamic again during the Rebellion. Each faction's war aims revolve around controlling hi-pop worlds. Lesser planets are in the mix only with regards to how they can be used to control the hi-pop worlds around them.

Remember the Long Night and try this little experiment. Pull out a sector map(1) and place a penny on every hi-pop world. Each of those pennies is the center of a potential Long Night pocket empire. Can you imagine the millennia of struggles between all them? Hot wars, cold wars, espionage, economic shenanigans, state sponsored piracy, revolts, rebellions, insurrections, the list is endless.

Then the Imperium shows up. It tells the ruling class of each pocket empire Join us and your worries are over. The little empire will be part of a huge empire, it will be defended from other powers, it will no longer have to worry culturally, economically, or militarily about the hi-pop world pocket empires around it, it will be able to have as much or as little off-world contact as it desires. What's more, the ruling classes of the hi-pop world pocket empire get automatically inducted into the ruling classes of the Imperium. So treaties are signed, patents of nobility granted, another clutch of worlds is absorbed by the Imperium, and the frontier moves on.

SThis means the Imperium is/was a power sharing agreement among hi-pop worlds. The idea of an 'imperium' was sold to those worlds alone, the other 90% didn't really matter and weren't often asked. This also means that the interests those hi-pop worlds have/had will drive the interests the Imperium has/had and the interests the Rebellion's factions have/had.

We see regionalism, factionalism, and 'homeworldism' all throughout the Third Imperium's history. There are acknowledged cultural regions. There are dynasties with associated bloodlines from specific internal regions. There are regional power bases used for both straightforward warfare in the case of the Civil War and Ilelish Revolt and for political struggles all the other time. There are even semi-autonomous regions; Antares, Solomani, Vegan, etc., inside a polity that supposedly doesn't allow multi-world groupings within it! Sectionalism occurs throughout the Imperium's long history.

The Imperium is/was a collection of factions that generally remembered it was better in the end to hang together than to hang apart - especially when hanging together and the benefits derived from it came at such a slight cost. Strephon and Dulinor both saw that this idea had either been forgotten or misplaced in the Classic Era Imperium(2). They both tried to reinforce the old idea, but in different manners.

Strephon chose to work the way the Imperium had always worked. He focussed on the governments making up the Imperium reminding them of their duties and responsibilities and holding them more accountable. He even reinvigorated a moribund level of the Imperial nobility to help with that oversight.

Dulinor chose to work through a different path; the masses. The Imperium had never really dealt with the masses, that was a job for the governments making up the Imperium. When governments were obstinate or flat out unwilling, Dulinor chose to sidestep those governments and make Imperial policies that directly effected the masses. The Imperial practice before had been to indirectly effect the masses through their local governments.

When the shots were fired, the governments making up the Imperium had been told two conflicting accounts of themselves for some time. Neither was good. Strephon was telling them that they were failing, that he expected them to do a better job, and he would see that they did it. Dulinor's opinion was worse, he was telling them that they weren't even need anymore and the Imperium would do their job!

Is it any wonder why the idea the Third Imperium wasn't in fashion by 1117? Two of it's strongest proponents were antagonising the very members that made it up!


Have fun,
Bill

1 - The Rim is not a good choice for this for various reasons.

2 - I believe the Rim War had a hand in this, but that's for another time.

 

[kafka47]

Homeworldism was also born in the fires of the birthing of the Second Imperium, Bill. When the Vilani caste system fell apart and adventurous Terrans came to govern over their subjects, they sought to find a compromise kindling a romantic attachment to one's own space would much easier than to distant Terra/Eshar and one wanted to break the feudal ties that kept the Pax Vilani stagnant. Many Terrans, no doubt, saw their role to ride in on the white starship and rescue from their provincialism. This sometimes, no doubt, triggering the birth of national-isms as it did in Germany, Italy, Yugoslavia, Czech lands in the Springtime of Nations as a substitute for prorocqual provincial ways.

Also, what is the Imperial ideal? Free trade? Hardly, something one can motivated 11,000 worlds over as we can see today. Therefore, the Imperium strikes a bargain govern how you like on the world just keep your markets or starports open. Over time, new institutions develop but they never really have deep roots save where the population feel directly threatened by another power like the Zhodani and if one sees the proliferation of Psionic Institutes, even the Zhodani do not really pose a threat amongst the educated.

Also, things change, once you begin a family and moved to new place and now add to that at least, 20 generations, they are bound to feel some ownership over that world. After all, the Marches was the most recently settled sector, I believe and when was the last major colonization push?

 

[kafka47]

Homeworldism was also born in the fires of the birthing of the Second Imperium, Bill. When the Vilani caste system fell apart and adventurous Terrans came to govern over their subjects, they sought to find a compromise kindling a romantic attachment to one's own space would much easier than to distant Terra/Eshar and one wanted to break the feudal ties that kept the Pax Vilani stagnant. Many Terrans, no doubt, saw their role to ride in on the white starship and rescue from their provincialism. This sometimes, no doubt, triggering the birth of national-isms as it did in Germany, Italy, Yugoslavia, Czech lands in the Springtime of Nations as a substitute for prorocqual provincial ways.

Also, what is the Imperial ideal? Free trade? Hardly, something one can motivated 11,000 worlds over as we can see today. Therefore, the Imperium strikes a bargain govern how you like on the world just keep your markets or starports open. Over time, new institutions develop but they never really have deep roots save where the population feel directly threatened by another power like the Zhodani and if one sees the proliferation of Psionic Institutes, even the Zhodani do not really pose a threat amongst the educated.

Also, things change, once you begin a family and moved to new place and now add to that at least, 20 generations, they are bound to feel some ownership over that world. After all, the Marches was the most recently settled sector, I believe and when was the last major colonization push?

 

[kafka47]

Homeworldism was also born in the fires of the birthing of the Second Imperium, Bill. When the Vilani caste system fell apart and adventurous Terrans came to govern over their subjects, they sought to find a compromise kindling a romantic attachment to one's own space would much easier than to distant Terra/Eshar and one wanted to break the feudal ties that kept the Pax Vilani stagnant. Many Terrans, no doubt, saw their role to ride in on the white starship and rescue from their provincialism. This sometimes, no doubt, triggering the birth of national-isms as it did in Germany, Italy, Yugoslavia, Czech lands in the Springtime of Nations as a substitute for prorocqual provincial ways.

Also, what is the Imperial ideal? Free trade? Hardly, something one can motivated 11,000 worlds over as we can see today. Therefore, the Imperium strikes a bargain govern how you like on the world just keep your markets or starports open. Over time, new institutions develop but they never really have deep roots save where the population feel directly threatened by another power like the Zhodani and if one sees the proliferation of Psionic Institutes, even the Zhodani do not really pose a threat amongst the educated.

Also, things change, once you begin a family and moved to new place and now add to that at least, 20 generations, they are bound to feel some ownership over that world. After all, the Marches was the most recently settled sector, I believe and when was the last major colonization push?

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Homeworldism was also born in the fires of the birthing of the Second Imperium, Bill.

Kafka,

Very well put!

Again, except in a few circumstances isolated in time and space, the idea of the 'imperium' was one that spoke to and was sold to governments and the ruling classes. The masses only look to the Imperium and deal directly with, for good or ill, rarely if at all.

Also, what is the Imperial ideal? Free trade? Hardly, something one can motivated 11,000 worlds over as we can see today. Therefore, the Imperium strikes a bargain govern how you like on the world just keep your markets or starports open.

Exactly. The sales pitch for the Imperium and its continuance, the idea that an Imperium is somehow better than no Imperium, is one that was understood best by governments and rulers. For the most part, that idea became muted or lost over the centuries even among the ruling classes.

Over time, new institutions develop but they never really have deep roots save where the population feel directly threatened by another power like the Zhodani...

Again, precisely. Threats wax and wane. They're forgotten one generation and all to real the next. New threats appear, old ones fade, and people forget. That's what the Imperial core had done by the 1110s; It Forgot.

After all, the Marches was the most recently settled sector, I believe and when was the last major colonization push?

Recent is a relative term. The Imperium has been in the 'frontier' of the Marches for over a thousand years and the last major colonization push occured before the Civil War, nearly 500 years ago. Even the 'threatened' Marches has seen centuries of peaceful co-existence with the Outworlds Coalition.

The rulers and masses of the Marches of the 1110s may hold to the idea of an 'imperium' because they've been at war twice in 30 years. Whether their parents and grandparents did so in 1050 before the 4th FW or whether their ancestors did so in 950 before the 3rd FW and after nearly three centuries of peace is another question.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Homeworldism was also born in the fires of the birthing of the Second Imperium, Bill.

Kafka,

Very well put!

Again, except in a few circumstances isolated in time and space, the idea of the 'imperium' was one that spoke to and was sold to governments and the ruling classes. The masses only look to the Imperium and deal directly with, for good or ill, rarely if at all.

Also, what is the Imperial ideal? Free trade? Hardly, something one can motivated 11,000 worlds over as we can see today. Therefore, the Imperium strikes a bargain govern how you like on the world just keep your markets or starports open.

Exactly. The sales pitch for the Imperium and its continuance, the idea that an Imperium is somehow better than no Imperium, is one that was understood best by governments and rulers. For the most part, that idea became muted or lost over the centuries even among the ruling classes.

Over time, new institutions develop but they never really have deep roots save where the population feel directly threatened by another power like the Zhodani...

Again, precisely. Threats wax and wane. They're forgotten one generation and all to real the next. New threats appear, old ones fade, and people forget. That's what the Imperial core had done by the 1110s; It Forgot.

After all, the Marches was the most recently settled sector, I believe and when was the last major colonization push?

Recent is a relative term. The Imperium has been in the 'frontier' of the Marches for over a thousand years and the last major colonization push occured before the Civil War, nearly 500 years ago. Even the 'threatened' Marches has seen centuries of peaceful co-existence with the Outworlds Coalition.

The rulers and masses of the Marches of the 1110s may hold to the idea of an 'imperium' because they've been at war twice in 30 years. Whether their parents and grandparents did so in 1050 before the 4th FW or whether their ancestors did so in 950 before the 3rd FW and after nearly three centuries of peace is another question.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Homeworldism was also born in the fires of the birthing of the Second Imperium, Bill.

Kafka,

Very well put!

Again, except in a few circumstances isolated in time and space, the idea of the 'imperium' was one that spoke to and was sold to governments and the ruling classes. The masses only look to the Imperium and deal directly with, for good or ill, rarely if at all.

Also, what is the Imperial ideal? Free trade? Hardly, something one can motivated 11,000 worlds over as we can see today. Therefore, the Imperium strikes a bargain govern how you like on the world just keep your markets or starports open.

Exactly. The sales pitch for the Imperium and its continuance, the idea that an Imperium is somehow better than no Imperium, is one that was understood best by governments and rulers. For the most part, that idea became muted or lost over the centuries even among the ruling classes.

Over time, new institutions develop but they never really have deep roots save where the population feel directly threatened by another power like the Zhodani...

Again, precisely. Threats wax and wane. They're forgotten one generation and all to real the next. New threats appear, old ones fade, and people forget. That's what the Imperial core had done by the 1110s; It Forgot.

After all, the Marches was the most recently settled sector, I believe and when was the last major colonization push?

Recent is a relative term. The Imperium has been in the 'frontier' of the Marches for over a thousand years and the last major colonization push occured before the Civil War, nearly 500 years ago. Even the 'threatened' Marches has seen centuries of peaceful co-existence with the Outworlds Coalition.

The rulers and masses of the Marches of the 1110s may hold to the idea of an 'imperium' because they've been at war twice in 30 years. Whether their parents and grandparents did so in 1050 before the 4th FW or whether their ancestors did so in 950 before the 3rd FW and after nearly three centuries of peace is another question.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Also, what is the Imperial ideal? Free trade?

I'd say stability in general, and particularly a stable economical climate. And a good environment for the megacorps to do as they wish in. The problem was that this lust for stability has eventually led to conservatism (as new changes might bring instability) and, in the end, stagnation.

Think of this that way: what would a person living in the Long Night desire most of all? Safety from raiders/petty tyrants, a job he could keep for most of his life, a government that doesn't suffer a bloody coup every couple of months. What would a corporation or merchant operating in the Long Night desire most of all? Access to markets with no fear of nationalization or high taxation, safety from war (or pirate) damage to property, and a good infrastructure to use. The Imperium provided all of these, but for a price - and the price was the ever-growing fear of the Long Night, which was eventually transformed into the fear of change.

Historically speaking, one of the greatest motivations for the creation of nations in early industrial-age Terra was to reduce taxation; a merchant passing from, say, one side of the pre-unification Germany to the other was forced to pay taxes and tariffs in every petty principality or fief he came through, which hurt profits bad. So nationality, in its earliuest form, greatly reduced the amount of borders that had to be crossed between points A and B, and thus was good for trade.

As long as there were lucrative frontiers (both external asnd internal) for the economy to grow into, stability could co-exist with the need for economical growth; once most frontiers were exausted (and the remaining ones, mostly internal, became progressively less and less profitable), stability became stagnation, and a "steady state" is BAD for any market (as growth and new investments are the engines of capitalism). So, as the corps were fighting over ever fewer scraps of good new markets to invest in, factionalism becvame more and more extreme.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Also, what is the Imperial ideal? Free trade?

I'd say stability in general, and particularly a stable economical climate. And a good environment for the megacorps to do as they wish in. The problem was that this lust for stability has eventually led to conservatism (as new changes might bring instability) and, in the end, stagnation.

Think of this that way: what would a person living in the Long Night desire most of all? Safety from raiders/petty tyrants, a job he could keep for most of his life, a government that doesn't suffer a bloody coup every couple of months. What would a corporation or merchant operating in the Long Night desire most of all? Access to markets with no fear of nationalization or high taxation, safety from war (or pirate) damage to property, and a good infrastructure to use. The Imperium provided all of these, but for a price - and the price was the ever-growing fear of the Long Night, which was eventually transformed into the fear of change.

Historically speaking, one of the greatest motivations for the creation of nations in early industrial-age Terra was to reduce taxation; a merchant passing from, say, one side of the pre-unification Germany to the other was forced to pay taxes and tariffs in every petty principality or fief he came through, which hurt profits bad. So nationality, in its earliuest form, greatly reduced the amount of borders that had to be crossed between points A and B, and thus was good for trade.

As long as there were lucrative frontiers (both external asnd internal) for the economy to grow into, stability could co-exist with the need for economical growth; once most frontiers were exausted (and the remaining ones, mostly internal, became progressively less and less profitable), stability became stagnation, and a "steady state" is BAD for any market (as growth and new investments are the engines of capitalism). So, as the corps were fighting over ever fewer scraps of good new markets to invest in, factionalism becvame more and more extreme.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by kafka47:
Also, what is the Imperial ideal? Free trade?

I'd say stability in general, and particularly a stable economical climate. And a good environment for the megacorps to do as they wish in. The problem was that this lust for stability has eventually led to conservatism (as new changes might bring instability) and, in the end, stagnation.

Think of this that way: what would a person living in the Long Night desire most of all? Safety from raiders/petty tyrants, a job he could keep for most of his life, a government that doesn't suffer a bloody coup every couple of months. What would a corporation or merchant operating in the Long Night desire most of all? Access to markets with no fear of nationalization or high taxation, safety from war (or pirate) damage to property, and a good infrastructure to use. The Imperium provided all of these, but for a price - and the price was the ever-growing fear of the Long Night, which was eventually transformed into the fear of change.

Historically speaking, one of the greatest motivations for the creation of nations in early industrial-age Terra was to reduce taxation; a merchant passing from, say, one side of the pre-unification Germany to the other was forced to pay taxes and tariffs in every petty principality or fief he came through, which hurt profits bad. So nationality, in its earliuest form, greatly reduced the amount of borders that had to be crossed between points A and B, and thus was good for trade.

As long as there were lucrative frontiers (both external asnd internal) for the economy to grow into, stability could co-exist with the need for economical growth; once most frontiers were exausted (and the remaining ones, mostly internal, became progressively less and less profitable), stability became stagnation, and a "steady state" is BAD for any market (as growth and new investments are the engines of capitalism). So, as the corps were fighting over ever fewer scraps of good new markets to invest in, factionalism becvame more and more extreme.