Ending the Rebellion or restarting it differently

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by daryen:
Just remember that Deneb itself is a hi-pop world run by a highly repressive religious oligarchy. Trying to implement populist "democratic" reforms on such a world will most likely not be pretty, if not outright catastrophic.

Exactly; he will find himself in the same position the USA (pardon my very short mention of RL politics) is currently in Iraq: overthrowing a tyrant may be easy, but only a fool presumes to dictate the destiny of the former dictator's subjects from above and without; and such a fool will face nothing but a series of revolt far, far beyond his control.

[EDIT:Ofcourse, this does not apply in ALL cases, especially when a previous democracy predated the dictator (such as most of Western Europe in WWII).]

Also, remember Robespierre's prophetic words:
"People don't like missionaries with bayonets"

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by daryen:
Just remember that Deneb itself is a hi-pop world run by a highly repressive religious oligarchy. Trying to implement populist "democratic" reforms on such a world will most likely not be pretty, if not outright catastrophic.

Exactly; he will find himself in the same position the USA (pardon my very short mention of RL politics) is currently in Iraq: overthrowing a tyrant may be easy, but only a fool presumes to dictate the destiny of the former dictator's subjects from above and without; and such a fool will face nothing but a series of revolt far, far beyond his control.

[EDIT:Ofcourse, this does not apply in ALL cases, especially when a previous democracy predated the dictator (such as most of Western Europe in WWII).]

Also, remember Robespierre's prophetic words:
"People don't like missionaries with bayonets"

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by daryen:
Just remember that Deneb itself is a hi-pop world run by a highly repressive religious oligarchy. Trying to implement populist "democratic" reforms on such a world will most likely not be pretty, if not outright catastrophic.

Exactly; he will find himself in the same position the USA (pardon my very short mention of RL politics) is currently in Iraq: overthrowing a tyrant may be easy, but only a fool presumes to dictate the destiny of the former dictator's subjects from above and without; and such a fool will face nothing but a series of revolt far, far beyond his control.

[EDIT:Ofcourse, this does not apply in ALL cases, especially when a previous democracy predated the dictator (such as most of Western Europe in WWII).]

Also, remember Robespierre's prophetic words:
"People don't like missionaries with bayonets"

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
Actually, Norris is a very interesting question. He would not be Archduke, and in fact would not be the ranking duke (Delphine of Mora is) of the Spinward Marches, or the Domain of Deneb (presumably whoever is on Deneb is). He would also be highly conflicted.

[...]

Complicating this is Norris' rival, Delphine. She seems to be an old-line noble deeply vested in the current structure. Even though still popular to most of her local subjects, I doubt she wants to deal with the uncertainty and unrest Dulinor's reforms would cause.

Added to this, we have absolutely no real information on any other nobles in the Domain. Assuming that the head of the whole domain is probably based on Deneb, what his/her perspective would be is pure conjecture.

We get some information in GT:Nobles about the other Spinward Marches dukes (and the Duchess of Pretoria). Apart from that, you're right. We know the names of the Duke of Tobia and the Duchess of Gazulin, but we know almost nothing about them. As for the Duke of Deneb, all we know is that he exists (he is mentioned in the first of the Grand Tour adventures).

However, Norris assumes in his diary that if he hadn't forged the appointment to archduke, Delphine would have been the one to take over. This implies that the Duchesses of Mora were senior to the Dukes of Deneb. Presumably the original line of the Dukes of Deneb became extinct some time after the Matriarchs of Mora glommed onto the ducal dignity, thus making the new line junior to them (Either that or the actual Duke of Deneb was a well-known non-starter ).

BTW, I don't think the Duke of Deneb is based on Deneb. Usani was the original sector (subsector?) capital, IIRC.

Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
Actually, Norris is a very interesting question. He would not be Archduke, and in fact would not be the ranking duke (Delphine of Mora is) of the Spinward Marches, or the Domain of Deneb (presumably whoever is on Deneb is). He would also be highly conflicted.

[...]

Complicating this is Norris' rival, Delphine. She seems to be an old-line noble deeply vested in the current structure. Even though still popular to most of her local subjects, I doubt she wants to deal with the uncertainty and unrest Dulinor's reforms would cause.

Added to this, we have absolutely no real information on any other nobles in the Domain. Assuming that the head of the whole domain is probably based on Deneb, what his/her perspective would be is pure conjecture.

We get some information in GT:Nobles about the other Spinward Marches dukes (and the Duchess of Pretoria). Apart from that, you're right. We know the names of the Duke of Tobia and the Duchess of Gazulin, but we know almost nothing about them. As for the Duke of Deneb, all we know is that he exists (he is mentioned in the first of the Grand Tour adventures).

However, Norris assumes in his diary that if he hadn't forged the appointment to archduke, Delphine would have been the one to take over. This implies that the Duchesses of Mora were senior to the Dukes of Deneb. Presumably the original line of the Dukes of Deneb became extinct some time after the Matriarchs of Mora glommed onto the ducal dignity, thus making the new line junior to them (Either that or the actual Duke of Deneb was a well-known non-starter ).

BTW, I don't think the Duke of Deneb is based on Deneb. Usani was the original sector (subsector?) capital, IIRC.

Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
Actually, Norris is a very interesting question. He would not be Archduke, and in fact would not be the ranking duke (Delphine of Mora is) of the Spinward Marches, or the Domain of Deneb (presumably whoever is on Deneb is). He would also be highly conflicted.

[...]

Complicating this is Norris' rival, Delphine. She seems to be an old-line noble deeply vested in the current structure. Even though still popular to most of her local subjects, I doubt she wants to deal with the uncertainty and unrest Dulinor's reforms would cause.

Added to this, we have absolutely no real information on any other nobles in the Domain. Assuming that the head of the whole domain is probably based on Deneb, what his/her perspective would be is pure conjecture.

We get some information in GT:Nobles about the other Spinward Marches dukes (and the Duchess of Pretoria). Apart from that, you're right. We know the names of the Duke of Tobia and the Duchess of Gazulin, but we know almost nothing about them. As for the Duke of Deneb, all we know is that he exists (he is mentioned in the first of the Grand Tour adventures).

However, Norris assumes in his diary that if he hadn't forged the appointment to archduke, Delphine would have been the one to take over. This implies that the Duchesses of Mora were senior to the Dukes of Deneb. Presumably the original line of the Dukes of Deneb became extinct some time after the Matriarchs of Mora glommed onto the ducal dignity, thus making the new line junior to them (Either that or the actual Duke of Deneb was a well-known non-starter ).

BTW, I don't think the Duke of Deneb is based on Deneb. Usani was the original sector (subsector?) capital, IIRC.

Hans

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
However, Norris assumes in his diary that if he hadn't forged the appointment to archduke, Delphine would have been the one to take over. This implies that the Duchesses of Mora were senior to the Dukes of Deneb.

I stand corrected. Regardless, for the sake of historical parallelism (and to reuse the detailed characters), I still think Dulinor would be forced to elevate Norris over Delphine. Despite the personal antagonisms, Norris is much more philosophically aligned with Dulinor, and Norris would likely give Dulinor the best chance of success in the Domain of Deneb.

As a side question, I don't know where you got the "diary" comment. Did it imply he would have been loyal to Delphine, or would he have worked against her? (I assume he would have been loyal.)

BTW, I don't think the Duke of Deneb is based on Deneb. Usani was the original sector (subsector?) capital, IIRC.

Yes, Usani was/is the subsector capital. However, Deneb has always been the sector capital.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
However, Norris assumes in his diary that if he hadn't forged the appointment to archduke, Delphine would have been the one to take over. This implies that the Duchesses of Mora were senior to the Dukes of Deneb.

I stand corrected. Regardless, for the sake of historical parallelism (and to reuse the detailed characters), I still think Dulinor would be forced to elevate Norris over Delphine. Despite the personal antagonisms, Norris is much more philosophically aligned with Dulinor, and Norris would likely give Dulinor the best chance of success in the Domain of Deneb.

As a side question, I don't know where you got the "diary" comment. Did it imply he would have been loyal to Delphine, or would he have worked against her? (I assume he would have been loyal.)

BTW, I don't think the Duke of Deneb is based on Deneb. Usani was the original sector (subsector?) capital, IIRC.

Yes, Usani was/is the subsector capital. However, Deneb has always been the sector capital.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by rancke:
However, Norris assumes in his diary that if he hadn't forged the appointment to archduke, Delphine would have been the one to take over. This implies that the Duchesses of Mora were senior to the Dukes of Deneb.

I stand corrected. Regardless, for the sake of historical parallelism (and to reuse the detailed characters), I still think Dulinor would be forced to elevate Norris over Delphine. Despite the personal antagonisms, Norris is much more philosophically aligned with Dulinor, and Norris would likely give Dulinor the best chance of success in the Domain of Deneb.

As a side question, I don't know where you got the "diary" comment. Did it imply he would have been loyal to Delphine, or would he have worked against her? (I assume he would have been loyal.)

BTW, I don't think the Duke of Deneb is based on Deneb. Usani was the original sector (subsector?) capital, IIRC.

Yes, Usani was/is the subsector capital. However, Deneb has always been the sector capital.

 

[Whipsnade]

Daryen,

Another factor in Dulinor deciding to appoint Norris is that it would create an Archduke who owes his title to Dulinor.

All the others are "Strephon's men". Norris would be the first (and only?) Archduke who is "Dulinor's man"


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Daryen,

Another factor in Dulinor deciding to appoint Norris is that it would create an Archduke who owes his title to Dulinor.

All the others are "Strephon's men". Norris would be the first (and only?) Archduke who is "Dulinor's man"


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Daryen,

Another factor in Dulinor deciding to appoint Norris is that it would create an Archduke who owes his title to Dulinor.

All the others are "Strephon's men". Norris would be the first (and only?) Archduke who is "Dulinor's man"


Have fun,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
Yes, Usani was/is the subsector capital. However, Deneb has always been the sector capital.

Do you have a quote to that effect? (I'm not trying to bust your chops. It's just that in my work on the history of the Spinward Marches, I occasionally make reference to conditions in Deneb, and my tentative (and non-canonical) history has another world as the sector capital to begin with and only transferred later (because Deneb resisted inclusion into the Imperium for a long time). If there is a reference to Deneb as the sector capital in the past, I want to know of it, so I can change my stuff to fit).

Incidentally, if the Duke of Usani isn't the sector duke, who is? Remember, the sector duke is always one of the subsector dukes.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
Yes, Usani was/is the subsector capital. However, Deneb has always been the sector capital.

Do you have a quote to that effect? (I'm not trying to bust your chops. It's just that in my work on the history of the Spinward Marches, I occasionally make reference to conditions in Deneb, and my tentative (and non-canonical) history has another world as the sector capital to begin with and only transferred later (because Deneb resisted inclusion into the Imperium for a long time). If there is a reference to Deneb as the sector capital in the past, I want to know of it, so I can change my stuff to fit).

Incidentally, if the Duke of Usani isn't the sector duke, who is? Remember, the sector duke is always one of the subsector dukes.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
Yes, Usani was/is the subsector capital. However, Deneb has always been the sector capital.

Do you have a quote to that effect? (I'm not trying to bust your chops. It's just that in my work on the history of the Spinward Marches, I occasionally make reference to conditions in Deneb, and my tentative (and non-canonical) history has another world as the sector capital to begin with and only transferred later (because Deneb resisted inclusion into the Imperium for a long time). If there is a reference to Deneb as the sector capital in the past, I want to know of it, so I can change my stuff to fit).

Incidentally, if the Duke of Usani isn't the sector duke, who is? Remember, the sector duke is always one of the subsector dukes.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
As a side question, I don't know where you got the "diary" comment. Did it imply he would have been loyal to Delphine, or would he have worked against her? (I assume he would have been loyal.)

It's in Survival Margin. Norris is musing regretfully about the fact that he 'celebrated' Strephon's death by taking his name in vain. However, he felt he had to, since someone had to take over and "better me than gadawful Delphine" (or words to that effect).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
As a side question, I don't know where you got the "diary" comment. Did it imply he would have been loyal to Delphine, or would he have worked against her? (I assume he would have been loyal.)

It's in Survival Margin. Norris is musing regretfully about the fact that he 'celebrated' Strephon's death by taking his name in vain. However, he felt he had to, since someone had to take over and "better me than gadawful Delphine" (or words to that effect).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by daryen:
As a side question, I don't know where you got the "diary" comment. Did it imply he would have been loyal to Delphine, or would he have worked against her? (I assume he would have been loyal.)

It's in Survival Margin. Norris is musing regretfully about the fact that he 'celebrated' Strephon's death by taking his name in vain. However, he felt he had to, since someone had to take over and "better me than gadawful Delphine" (or words to that effect).


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Daryen,

Another factor in Dulinor deciding to appoint Norris is that it would create an Archduke who owes his title to Dulinor.

All the others are "Strephon's men". Norris would be the first (and only?) Archduke who is "Dulinor's man"

Dulinor would have had to appoint one more archduke, since offing Strephon created a vacancy in the Domain of Sylea. Presumably he would have taken over as Archduke of Sylea himself and appointed someone else (his brother?) as Archduke of Ilelish. Or would he have kept both titles and ruled Ilelish by proxy?


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Bill Cameron:
Daryen,

Another factor in Dulinor deciding to appoint Norris is that it would create an Archduke who owes his title to Dulinor.

All the others are "Strephon's men". Norris would be the first (and only?) Archduke who is "Dulinor's man"

Dulinor would have had to appoint one more archduke, since offing Strephon created a vacancy in the Domain of Sylea. Presumably he would have taken over as Archduke of Sylea himself and appointed someone else (his brother?) as Archduke of Ilelish. Or would he have kept both titles and ruled Ilelish by proxy?


Hans