Ending the Rebellion or restarting it differently

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
By 2-4601
“IIRC his main proposed reform in cannon MT was the transformation of all planetary governments into democracies...”

He was crazy. The system would have imploded from the inside out.

Exactly. He is part of the system, and placed at the head of the system, nothing less - and he tries to implement from 'above' and from 'within' something which could only done from outside. This is why his reforms would go out of (his) hand quickly - he will give the masses a promise of freedom and then, because he is acting from within the system, will be unable to deliever this promise; the people, then, will want to get their freedom by themselves. And without the threat of Imperial military intervention against their insurrection, the people will present him with a hundred Dinoms, thousand Dinoms (Dinom was a mining world depicted in DA2: Across the Bright Face where the greatly oprerssed miners threw the corporation out).

This was what happened when Gurbachev made it clear that he won't be using the Red Army to protect the Eastern European Stalinist regimes anymore; soon after, Chauchescou (sp?) was shot by a popular uprising and the Berlin Wall fell.

By kafka47
that once his plan backfired, he would have been a gradualist . . .

I don’t think he would have gotten a second chance. Once he betrayed the system the system would have removed him.

The system would probably attempt to remove him, but once the people see him as a symbol of change, such an attempt would just amplify the effect of his reforms - I don't know if the people will protect him, or will they simply carry on their own reforms, Dulinor in power or not, and I really, really don't envy anyone who'll take the Irridium Throne after removing Dulinor - that Emperor is very likely to end up like Chauchescou, Czar Nicolai II, (sp?) or Louis XVI...

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
By 2-4601
“IIRC his main proposed reform in cannon MT was the transformation of all planetary governments into democracies...”

He was crazy. The system would have imploded from the inside out.

Exactly. He is part of the system, and placed at the head of the system, nothing less - and he tries to implement from 'above' and from 'within' something which could only done from outside. This is why his reforms would go out of (his) hand quickly - he will give the masses a promise of freedom and then, because he is acting from within the system, will be unable to deliever this promise; the people, then, will want to get their freedom by themselves. And without the threat of Imperial military intervention against their insurrection, the people will present him with a hundred Dinoms, thousand Dinoms (Dinom was a mining world depicted in DA2: Across the Bright Face where the greatly oprerssed miners threw the corporation out).

This was what happened when Gurbachev made it clear that he won't be using the Red Army to protect the Eastern European Stalinist regimes anymore; soon after, Chauchescou (sp?) was shot by a popular uprising and the Berlin Wall fell.

By kafka47
that once his plan backfired, he would have been a gradualist . . .

I don’t think he would have gotten a second chance. Once he betrayed the system the system would have removed him.

The system would probably attempt to remove him, but once the people see him as a symbol of change, such an attempt would just amplify the effect of his reforms - I don't know if the people will protect him, or will they simply carry on their own reforms, Dulinor in power or not, and I really, really don't envy anyone who'll take the Irridium Throne after removing Dulinor - that Emperor is very likely to end up like Chauchescou, Czar Nicolai II, (sp?) or Louis XVI...

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Kurega Gikur:
By 2-4601
“IIRC his main proposed reform in cannon MT was the transformation of all planetary governments into democracies...”

He was crazy. The system would have imploded from the inside out.

Exactly. He is part of the system, and placed at the head of the system, nothing less - and he tries to implement from 'above' and from 'within' something which could only done from outside. This is why his reforms would go out of (his) hand quickly - he will give the masses a promise of freedom and then, because he is acting from within the system, will be unable to deliever this promise; the people, then, will want to get their freedom by themselves. And without the threat of Imperial military intervention against their insurrection, the people will present him with a hundred Dinoms, thousand Dinoms (Dinom was a mining world depicted in DA2: Across the Bright Face where the greatly oprerssed miners threw the corporation out).

This was what happened when Gurbachev made it clear that he won't be using the Red Army to protect the Eastern European Stalinist regimes anymore; soon after, Chauchescou (sp?) was shot by a popular uprising and the Berlin Wall fell.

By kafka47
that once his plan backfired, he would have been a gradualist . . .

I don’t think he would have gotten a second chance. Once he betrayed the system the system would have removed him.

The system would probably attempt to remove him, but once the people see him as a symbol of change, such an attempt would just amplify the effect of his reforms - I don't know if the people will protect him, or will they simply carry on their own reforms, Dulinor in power or not, and I really, really don't envy anyone who'll take the Irridium Throne after removing Dulinor - that Emperor is very likely to end up like Chauchescou, Czar Nicolai II, (sp?) or Louis XVI...

 

[Golan2072]

My general impression (based on most MT material AS WELL AS some CT material) was that the Third Imperium was at its final dying stages anyway: the economy was stagnant, the regime was rotten, the nobles too loyal to themselves and not too loyal to anyone else and the masses getting itchy and starting to look for alternatives to the system.

In my eyes, Dulinor, while probably having some real ideals of his own, was basically trying to save the system at large by sacrificing the excesses. He felt that a change was coming and tried to fix the dead system in order to preserve his power, his system's power and the power of the narrow elite to which he belonged. One way or another the Imperium would collapse; the question is in which way, to which end and at what speed.

And always remember that nothing rouses the masses more quickly than a broken promise for freedom...

 

[Golan2072]

My general impression (based on most MT material AS WELL AS some CT material) was that the Third Imperium was at its final dying stages anyway: the economy was stagnant, the regime was rotten, the nobles too loyal to themselves and not too loyal to anyone else and the masses getting itchy and starting to look for alternatives to the system.

In my eyes, Dulinor, while probably having some real ideals of his own, was basically trying to save the system at large by sacrificing the excesses. He felt that a change was coming and tried to fix the dead system in order to preserve his power, his system's power and the power of the narrow elite to which he belonged. One way or another the Imperium would collapse; the question is in which way, to which end and at what speed.

And always remember that nothing rouses the masses more quickly than a broken promise for freedom...

 

[Golan2072]

My general impression (based on most MT material AS WELL AS some CT material) was that the Third Imperium was at its final dying stages anyway: the economy was stagnant, the regime was rotten, the nobles too loyal to themselves and not too loyal to anyone else and the masses getting itchy and starting to look for alternatives to the system.

In my eyes, Dulinor, while probably having some real ideals of his own, was basically trying to save the system at large by sacrificing the excesses. He felt that a change was coming and tried to fix the dead system in order to preserve his power, his system's power and the power of the narrow elite to which he belonged. One way or another the Imperium would collapse; the question is in which way, to which end and at what speed.

And always remember that nothing rouses the masses more quickly than a broken promise for freedom...

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

We need to remember that revolutions occur when rising expectations are not met.

Starving peasents do not spark revolutions. Instead, they're kicked off by disaffected elites and wannabe elites.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

We need to remember that revolutions occur when rising expectations are not met.

Starving peasents do not spark revolutions. Instead, they're kicked off by disaffected elites and wannabe elites.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

We need to remember that revolutions occur when rising expectations are not met.

Starving peasents do not spark revolutions. Instead, they're kicked off by disaffected elites and wannabe elites.


Have fun,
Bill

 

[kafka47]

Not always, revolutions also happen when the people want a change and the old system no longer delivers and the need to deliver the goods cannot be met with status quo. Each revolution has its own dynamic and often the elites that believe they are orchestrating the affair get swept away by what the Poles call, the moment of extraordinary politics.

 

[kafka47]

Not always, revolutions also happen when the people want a change and the old system no longer delivers and the need to deliver the goods cannot be met with status quo. Each revolution has its own dynamic and often the elites that believe they are orchestrating the affair get swept away by what the Poles call, the moment of extraordinary politics.

 

[kafka47]

Not always, revolutions also happen when the people want a change and the old system no longer delivers and the need to deliver the goods cannot be met with status quo. Each revolution has its own dynamic and often the elites that believe they are orchestrating the affair get swept away by what the Poles call, the moment of extraordinary politics.

 

[jfetters]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
My general impression (based on most MT material AS WELL AS some CT material) was that the Third Imperium was at its final dying stages anyway: the economy was stagnant, the regime was rotten, the nobles too loyal to themselves and not too loyal to anyone else and the masses getting itchy and starting to look for alternatives to the system.

In my eyes, Dulinor, while probably having some real ideals of his own, was basically trying to save the system at large by sacrificing the excesses. He felt that a change was coming and tried to fix the dead system in order to preserve his power, his system's power and the power of the narrow elite to which he belonged. One way or another the Imperium would collapse; the question is in which way, to which end and at what speed.

And always remember that nothing rouses the masses more quickly than a broken promise for freedom...

Well, its like the Rebellion Sourcebook puts it - a good number of people would probably support the reform ideas that Dulinor proposes, but the fact that he had to murder a relatively popular leader seriously undermines the sell.

Then, once the Rebellion concludes and he is Emperor, he has to rule over a LOT of people who hate him for what he has created, which results in him compromising his values and cracking down on the dissenters, becoming that which he despises. The only thing is that he has a pretty powerful and loyal military base, unlike Lucan. Nice tragic setting - and an interesting ATU to boot.

 

[jfetters]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
My general impression (based on most MT material AS WELL AS some CT material) was that the Third Imperium was at its final dying stages anyway: the economy was stagnant, the regime was rotten, the nobles too loyal to themselves and not too loyal to anyone else and the masses getting itchy and starting to look for alternatives to the system.

In my eyes, Dulinor, while probably having some real ideals of his own, was basically trying to save the system at large by sacrificing the excesses. He felt that a change was coming and tried to fix the dead system in order to preserve his power, his system's power and the power of the narrow elite to which he belonged. One way or another the Imperium would collapse; the question is in which way, to which end and at what speed.

And always remember that nothing rouses the masses more quickly than a broken promise for freedom...

Well, its like the Rebellion Sourcebook puts it - a good number of people would probably support the reform ideas that Dulinor proposes, but the fact that he had to murder a relatively popular leader seriously undermines the sell.

Then, once the Rebellion concludes and he is Emperor, he has to rule over a LOT of people who hate him for what he has created, which results in him compromising his values and cracking down on the dissenters, becoming that which he despises. The only thing is that he has a pretty powerful and loyal military base, unlike Lucan. Nice tragic setting - and an interesting ATU to boot.

 

[jfetters]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
My general impression (based on most MT material AS WELL AS some CT material) was that the Third Imperium was at its final dying stages anyway: the economy was stagnant, the regime was rotten, the nobles too loyal to themselves and not too loyal to anyone else and the masses getting itchy and starting to look for alternatives to the system.

In my eyes, Dulinor, while probably having some real ideals of his own, was basically trying to save the system at large by sacrificing the excesses. He felt that a change was coming and tried to fix the dead system in order to preserve his power, his system's power and the power of the narrow elite to which he belonged. One way or another the Imperium would collapse; the question is in which way, to which end and at what speed.

And always remember that nothing rouses the masses more quickly than a broken promise for freedom...

Well, its like the Rebellion Sourcebook puts it - a good number of people would probably support the reform ideas that Dulinor proposes, but the fact that he had to murder a relatively popular leader seriously undermines the sell.

Then, once the Rebellion concludes and he is Emperor, he has to rule over a LOT of people who hate him for what he has created, which results in him compromising his values and cracking down on the dissenters, becoming that which he despises. The only thing is that he has a pretty powerful and loyal military base, unlike Lucan. Nice tragic setting - and an interesting ATU to boot.

 

[kafka47]

As I stated in my first post, it is not so much that the Rebellion starts at all, Dulinor is successful with the first attempt, he does not flee and he is given a honeymoon period in which to enact his reforms but the reforms sometimes have a dynamic of all their own especially when they are dramatic. Yes, parts of the Imperium were overripe for the reforms and had begun to introduce similar measures given a momentium but others relied upon the old ways of doing things to protect the fragile peace. So, what I am proposing is a mini-Rebellion carried out on numerous fronts but without the awesome firepower that needs to be hauled out, save, in the death throes of the Imperium facing an enemy they cannot possibly understand or cope with.

 

[kafka47]

As I stated in my first post, it is not so much that the Rebellion starts at all, Dulinor is successful with the first attempt, he does not flee and he is given a honeymoon period in which to enact his reforms but the reforms sometimes have a dynamic of all their own especially when they are dramatic. Yes, parts of the Imperium were overripe for the reforms and had begun to introduce similar measures given a momentium but others relied upon the old ways of doing things to protect the fragile peace. So, what I am proposing is a mini-Rebellion carried out on numerous fronts but without the awesome firepower that needs to be hauled out, save, in the death throes of the Imperium facing an enemy they cannot possibly understand or cope with.

 

[kafka47]

As I stated in my first post, it is not so much that the Rebellion starts at all, Dulinor is successful with the first attempt, he does not flee and he is given a honeymoon period in which to enact his reforms but the reforms sometimes have a dynamic of all their own especially when they are dramatic. Yes, parts of the Imperium were overripe for the reforms and had begun to introduce similar measures given a momentium but others relied upon the old ways of doing things to protect the fragile peace. So, what I am proposing is a mini-Rebellion carried out on numerous fronts but without the awesome firepower that needs to be hauled out, save, in the death throes of the Imperium facing an enemy they cannot possibly understand or cope with.

 

[jfetters]

Yeah, cool ATU idea.

OK, so in that case, which areas are likely to foster uprisings?

Probably the Solomani - they sense a weakness and surge across the border.

Probably Gushemege after Strephon appears.

Margaret would not like the turn of events, but would probably not take any overt military action until several years had passed and the fruits of Dulinor's labors are born.

The Corridor and Lishun fleets would never get recalled, so you would not need to worry about the silly Vargr incursions.

Vland may get a bit restive over time.

What would Norris do? That is an interesting question in itself. I think he would still make himself ArchDuke (or at least try it), but he does not have to worry about the lines of communication being completely severed.

 

[jfetters]

Yeah, cool ATU idea.

OK, so in that case, which areas are likely to foster uprisings?

Probably the Solomani - they sense a weakness and surge across the border.

Probably Gushemege after Strephon appears.

Margaret would not like the turn of events, but would probably not take any overt military action until several years had passed and the fruits of Dulinor's labors are born.

The Corridor and Lishun fleets would never get recalled, so you would not need to worry about the silly Vargr incursions.

Vland may get a bit restive over time.

What would Norris do? That is an interesting question in itself. I think he would still make himself ArchDuke (or at least try it), but he does not have to worry about the lines of communication being completely severed.