Do the Citizens of the Imperium Accept or Reject Piracy

[Whipsnade]

I suspect the real difference between our viewpoints is in the integrity of the systems involved...

Sanjuro,

The real problem in discussions of this type is the binary thinking too many of the participants all too readily fall into. Too many people make the mistake of believing there are only two options and further compound that error by believing that only one can be correct. The issue is narrowed to a false binary choice between black and white, up and down, or one and zero.

Some make a case for the Bwaps Imperium of competent authorities and bureaucratic systems which track suspect ships across parsecs while others make a case for a Rotten Imperium in which incompetent or corrupt officials can be bribed and bureaucratic systems are routinely suborned or fail with the mistaken assumption in both cases being that the Imperium is either all of one or all of the other all of the time.

Those binary and blinkered viewpoints ignore both canonical evidence and real world examples.

The truth of the matter is that the Imperium is both a Bwaps Imperium and a Rotten Imperium at the same time. There will be "Bwaps" regions and "Rotten" regions in the Imperium and, what's more, the location of those regions will shift over time.

Like the blind men describing an entire elephant by the tiny portion they happen to be touching, too many people choose to limit their description of the entirety of piracy across the entirety of the Imperium by the tiny portion they choose to grasp.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Sanjuro]

Whipsnade,

Excellent point; I think I admitted that there are some systems where piracy would be a short and unsuccessful enterprise, just as there are others where the usual protections simply do not exist. The two possibilities might be closer than we expect- just as in our world, the "First" and "Third" Worlds might only be an hour or two apart.

As you say, the difference need not only be one of space- it could just as easily be one of time. Nothing prevents the Deneb Reserve Fleet holding a deployment exercise to Jurgen's World on the day a pirate thinks an opportunity exists- similarly, a suspected Vargr (or Aslan, or Zhodani, or whoever the bad guy of the moment is) might take the bulk of the defenders of a rich world, if not outsystem, at least a few hours' travel away, just at the wrong moment...

If I seem to have dug my heels in on one side of the argument, I apologise; Hans presented a strong case- well enough presented that I wanted to make an equally strong case in the other direction.

Anyway, my thanks for your patience with a newcomer; I hope I am providing, as well as receiving, food for thought!

Jim

 

[mbrinkhues]

Sure there are sectors with little or no piracy. Often depending on how you play certain regions of space.

I.e if one plays the Spinward Marches as "German:German Border, 1987" then there is little piracy or smuggling. And that is "state run". Same for "SolRim". Piracy does not exist because both sides are overly paranoid and have huge fleets/patrol forces running around. (One of the reasons I'd rather NOT play then play in the SM-Setting(1))

OTOH there are some settings in time/space that feature a weak defence, smaller nations strong enough to repell the local 3I forces if needed and enough trade potential (Gateway and the post 1116 MT setting)

You won't have pirats in the Englisch chanel (not counting the early Royal Navy ) nor bandits holding you up while landing in Conwy harbor (Unless you count the brits IN Conwy castle) and the same is due for pirats of Sylea.

(1) Me tendency of making tastless jokes about the IMHO gay (Arch)Duke and playing his forces like a CSC parade is another

 

[rancke]

Depends all on an interstellar government that does enforce rules instead of making them and then has the necessary structures in place to "watch the watchers". Historically piracy has operated with "colonial governments" looking the other way a lot (i.e the Britisch Colonies pre 1776)

No, it depends on some people being sufficiently motivated by the prospect of acquiring legal title to a 10 million credit asset to invest some time and effort in tracking down the ship. I admit I'm postulating the existence of ordinary human greed even in the 56th Century.

And it assumes that the structures to check/confiscate ships exist.

It assumes that it's well-nigh impossible to disguise a ship built in one place as one built in another, true. It also assumes that people haven't lost the ability to analyse data.

That the naval forces are effective and cooperative. Again history shows that this more often than not doesn't work. Even in the late 20th century civilian and military organisations foulded up big tracking airplanes or taking over the tracking of fugitives (And we are talking hostage takers and copkillers here!)

No, it just assumes that the greedy pursuers won't give up if they fail the first time.

The "Bwaps and Bureaus" Empire of GT may work that way with unbribable Starport Officers and all.

Oh, I don't believe in those unbribable starport officers at all.

And what one does IMTU is even less constrained by the constraints of what GDW cobbled together over the years

What one does in my TU is constrained only by my desire to be able to use material produced by others with as little effort to adapt it as possible.


Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

Hans:

You have your options and your games. They are not mine. They'll never be since I consider yours to be far to constrictive.

I want more from Traveller than yet another "search the Ancients" game (1) or the 153rd incarnation of a traders game or another incarnation of TNE series 1-3(2). So in my game I simply "don't care" about certain elements that are important to you. And I have found in 20 years of Traveller and other SciFi games that most players agree. And the great think about this being IMTU: I don't have to stick with "established" material if I don't like it.



(1)Actually IMTU ALL Ancients are dead, all their ruins are useless rubble
(2) Roddenberry dropping out saved TNE. Until that time the only watchabel part was the counselors neck line

 

[rancke]

You have your options and your games. They are not mine. They'll never be since I consider yours to be far to constrictive.

You seem to be under the impression that I don't have pirates in my TU. Nothing could be further from the truth. I have pirates, because pirates are FUN! I just don't think that pirates, as portrayed in the cases I object to makes sense. In this particular thread I'm objecting to the concept of a working merchant performing a bit of piracy on the side and having a decent chance of getting away with it. That's not to say that it's completely impossible that he'd get away with it, but he'd be much better off selling his ship and retiring...

In the OTU pirates are a fact of life, of course.


Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

As said, too much reality makes for an IMHO boooooring game. Traveller already suffers in the boring department with supplements like "Secret of the Ancients" or "Twilights Peak" (the best sleeping pills since Lem's Solaris). So IMTU realism gets booted for fun.

 

[rancke]

As said, too much reality makes for an IMHO boooooring game.

Well, of course. If it didn't, it wouldn't be too much, would it? Just the right amount of realism, on the other hand, adds verisimilitude to an otherwise unconvincing setting and contributes greatly to the enjoyment of a game.


Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

Well, of course. If it didn't, it wouldn't be too much, would it? Just the right amount of realism, on the other hand, adds verisimilitude to an otherwise unconvincing setting and contributes greatly to the enjoyment of a game.


Hans

The OTU and the variant you propose are IMHO quite far into "too much" territory. GT is even worse.

 

[rancke]

The OTU and the variant you propose are IMHO quite far into "too much" territory. GT is even worse.

It seems to me that the obvious solution would be for me to concern myself with the details I feel are useful and for you to ignore the details you feel are excessive.


Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

You are right. I tend to forget this forum has an ignore list

 

[jatay3]

Piracy within the Imperium is unlikely during times when it is well governed. Would it be that unlikely outside the imperium?