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Do the Citizens of the Imperium Accept or Reject Piracy

In 30 hours, the Earth moves (roughly) 15 million km with respect to Barnard's Star. So now there's (potentially) 3 million km of error.


drnuncheon,

Accounting for stellar vectors during jump are part of Traveller too. There are a few canonical adventures that mention accounting for stellar vectors explicitly. The practice is there if the GM wants to use it, but a GM needn't impose stellar vectors if he doesn't want to. It's all part of Traveller's "Buffet Table of Canonical Details".

I'm "fixated" on the target world because that is where I'm going. Forgive me if that seems sensible.

It's not sensible, in either a metagame or in-game sense, because it's impossible given the setting's assumptions.

We've two canonical statements regarding jump drive's performance. One involves a temporal accuracy and one a physical accuracy. Because both statements are canonical, both statements have to be true, and, if both statements are true, then jump navigation must work as I've repeatedly explained to you.

Our navigator is interested in getting as close to Bendor as he can. He also knows that, given the way jump drive works, he can only plan exiting within a certain region that is in turn within a certain range of distances from Bendor. There's only so much accuracy he can work with. He's interested in Bendor naturally, but he can only measure from Ffudn.

Here's where the problem is. The patrols do not know when a ship leaves Ffudn for Bendor.

That's not a problem. Instead, that's a gross conceptual error on your part.

A ship could be leaving at any time.

Exactly. Because ships could be leaving Ffudn at any given time, the Bendor patrols act as if a ship is leaving Ffudn for Bendor at any given time. After all, do lighthouses only turn on their lights and foghorns when they knew a ship was due? Because, there's only one best-time solution for a Ffudn-to-Bendor jump at any given moment and because those best-time solutions change in a predictable manner, the patrols know how to change their positions accordingly. It doesn't matter whether a ship exits jump each hour or each day or each week. The patrols plan on a ship exiting jump at any given time.

It doesn't matter if a ship from Ffudn doesn't exit on 1200hrs 100-1105 because the Bendor patrols are going to picket the "1200hr 100-1105 Ffudn jump exit region" anyway. As time passes, the patrol will move to allow their weapon/sensor envelope to cover the "1300hr 100-1105 Ffudn jump exit region" then the 1400hr 100-1105 Ffudn jump exit region" and so forth. The shifting of that jump exit region within the Bendor system will normally be gradual. Issues like jump masking in either system will occasionally cause the Ffudn jump exit region to jump itself, however, because those jumps will be predictable, patrols will already be at the new region when it becomes "active".

If you add in jump masking (which is how all this got started) and the possibility that the best jump still puts you somewhere on the 100D limit of the sun instead of the mainworld, then you also have to protect the paths for ships from the best exit point to the mainworld (which are going to be different based on the ships performance).

As I've written already, jump masking, which has been part of the game since CT, is wholly predictable. That predictability will allow patrols to position themselves.

In-system routes will differ with gee ratings, but not enough to make the difference you assume. I posted the differences between 1gee and 6gee travel times for 3 million km, they amount to a few hours. If an in-system route at a certain thrust will require an in-coming ship to use a radically different course, than system traffic control and/or the patrols covering the jump exit region will inform them to only use that thrust which will keep them in a covered transit route.

Suggesting that patrols would somehow allow ships to loiter along in-system transit routes, as pirate would have to do, without at least challenging them by communications is farcical. It would be akin to police outside a post office on one block and police outside a bank on another block ignoring muggers who are plainly visible on a block between them knocking over little old ladies and stealing their pension checks.

You still haven't mentioned which canon. It's none of the ones I've seen.

LBB:2.

It's a fictional rule. "Wrong" is relative.

Wrong. It's a rule creating a fictional reality and that fictional reality in turn requires continuity. All other versions of Traveller adhered to CT's weapon and sensor ranges with little variation. TNE which attempted to add more hard science to Traveller had to introduce gravitic focusing in order to give lasers a range more comparable to the ranges used in previous versions of Traveller. Because they vary from this thirty year old norm by so much, MgT's weapon and sensor ranges are just another mistake by Mongoose and their shoddy production practices.

Piracy in the OTU does not interest me in and of itself.

You asked me what I was doing here, so what are you doing here then?

I'm not trying to score Traveller geek points here.

Then leave the thread. Sadly, you'll be losing out on gaining more Traveller geek points just when the new redemption catalog is due out. I'm hoping to get a Sylean samovar with Emperors of the Flag tea cups.

However, as you have repeatedly pointed out, it's something that's been discussed and thought about a lot under a certain set of assumptions.

And those assumptions have held true across several versions for over thirty years. It's what the OTU is all about.

The thing is that not everybody plays using those same assumptions. Some people are playing Mongoose Traveller with their wrong-wrongity-wrong weapon and sensor ranges.

MgT weapon and sensor ranges are wrong, but anyone can use them in their TU's. It's when they want their TU to be applicable to the OTU or useful in other TUs that the problems begin. I'm discussing the OTU because when I stick to that standard people can more easily import what I discuss into their own TUs.

Some people are playing GURPS Traveller with its jump masking.

Jump masking dates from iCT.

Some people might be playing CT, but they're saying "how could I change things to make piracy more probable?"

And when they do, they'll make changes that usually work in their TU alone.

So instead of saying "I love piracy but it's next to impossible and if you disagree you just don't understand", I want to examine what assumptions and axioms make it next to impossible, and see what happens when we change them.

It's more like saying "I love piracy, but jump-to-port piracy in the OTU is next to impossible because of all these canonical statements. Piracy still works in the OTU, mostly in different places and in different fashions. That makes OTU piracy more like historical piracy and less like Hollywood/Yo-ho-ho piracy..

No one is arguing against piracy here. What were arguing about is routine port-to-jump piracy with all the OTU assumptions still in place.

What happens if you don't assume sensors and weapons with light-minute ranges?

How things change will depend on how you change those ranges. Your changes will also effect many other things than the conduct of piracy however. Changes to weapon and sensor ranges will change warship designs for example and any change to weapon and sensor ranges will have to explore all the subsequent effects if it wants to be done with intellectual honesty.

What happens when jump masking is taken into account?

In the OTU it's already taken into account.

How do these things change what is logical or plausible? Ultimately, I think that's going to be more interesting and far more helpful to GMs.

You change the OTU to make anything logical or plausible. However, the more you change the OTU the less utility your new TU has for other GMs. The OTU is the standard all other TUs are measured against. The further a TU is from that standard, the tougher it is to import aspects from that TU into another TU. For something to be useful, it has to be used.

There's another aspect of changes too, a very important one. GMs make what seems to be a "tweak" to the OTU to produce an effect their campaign requires. They then usually fail to apply that "tweak" with anything approaching intellectual honesty by failing to explore all the ramifications of the "tweak". As the GM adds more "tweaks" for more effects, the damage builds until their TU exhibits no internal consistency. The players find themselves in a setting ruled wholly by GM fiat, a setting in which they cannot be sure of the consequences of their actions. Once that point is reached, the campaign becomes random "roll-playing" and not roleplaying.


Regards,
Bill
 
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Personally, I always assumed that a ship arrives at the 100 diameter limit at the EXACT moment it should. The time variability occurs in jumpspace and only effects the ship's clock.

Thus the planet and star are exactly where they should be.
 
Ganymede: even with Everything shut off, any survivable ship is going to be at least 250°C/K above the backdrop. Probably about 290° above background.

You'll stand out in the IR just by blackbody radiation, unless backed by a planet or star.
A little late on the post, but... Deep space maybe, but the background IR radiation's gonna read at least 0 degrees or more at the habitable zone, by definition, and hotter the closer you get. Our own Jupiter is extraordinarily noisy in the radio wave range, which when I last looked was infrared, just not the official "IR" portion of the spectrum. A lot of noise means that a system that has things like masking are going to blend in a whole lot better.

Also, I'd envision that a tendency to observe with the radiation of choice, which seems to be neutrinos.

Also, how much does it stand out at distances in excess of light-seconds? We can see anomalies and variations in heat on the horizon, or in orbit, but one order of magnitude greater?

Also, since most of these hulls seem to be metal, an industrial modification of a transition element, they are going to absorb and radiate energy pretty well. What happens when you have a good radiator, and you stop pumping heat into it? That's right, the vacuum, er, sucks it off... I need to find a better way of saying that; maybe tomorrow....
 
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No, there is nothing to radiate that background, ganymede... Only if you face an IR source do you pick up ANY IR above the 3°K background (which is actually radiated from the material too far away to be distinct. IR images of spacecraft in orbit show no "baseline"... just the radiated IR from Earth, Moon, and spacecraft.

It's the same effect as a flashlight in vacuum... you don't see the cone of light... only the illumination of objects within.

In the habitability zone, a world will absorb sufficient energy to remain in the range 273°-220°K assuming a uniform rotation.... but unless you look towards the source of that heating, you see it against the 3°K backdrop, as there is nothing to reflect nor rereadiate the IR flowing through.
 
That wasn't Imperialist propaganda, that was Authorial Voice information.



Which deals with conflicts between subdvisions of member worlds, not tradewar and piracy. What about them do you feel support your interpretation?



Ah yes, that's a big conundrum. Almost as big as this one: If starship armaments are ubiquitous, why is piracy rampant?

After all, an armed free trader has a good chance of fighting off a canonical pirate ship, inflicting millions of credits worth of damages in the process, or even capturing it. Which is nice from the point of view of the PCs crewing the free trader, but does rather tend to put a crimp in the viability of piracy as a commercial buiness venture.


Hans

Free Traders will of necessity be underarmed and likely undermaned, without as much battle experience. They never travel in wolf packs either. What I found hard to understand is why so many invest in offensive weapons and so few don't trust to electronic deceivers to cover their escape.

In any case, you forgot non starships. Those can probably be a worthwhile prey at times.
Then their is space to ground. Find an unguarded settlement before the alarm goes out and there is a lot of slaves at least and possibly a bit of loot.
 
What I found hard to understand is why so many invest in offensive weapons and so few don't trust to electronic deceivers to cover their escape.

I don't know about later versions, but CT did not have anything in the ship design system (book 2 or book 5) in the way of DECM or other such systems.


Then their is space to ground. Find an unguarded settlement before the alarm goes out and there is a lot of slaves at least and possibly a bit of loot.

Exactly... has been a theme of sci-fi for many decades.
 
I make no claim for anything original in this post; I joined this site yesterday- however, I have read through this thread with interest.
The maximum risk scenario for classic "lurking" pirates would seem to be at poor worlds with no on-planet fuel, but an in-system gas giant- the target ship is going to be spending considerable time in real space, especially if the gas giant is at a far point in its orbit from the destination planet. Factoring the orbital position of trade planets and their gas giants would no doubt be a factor in determining when to visit that system; however, in game terms it would be one complication too many.
For shipping routes within a system, there is a lesser chance of piracy- as several posters have mentioned, where there is a regularly travelled realspace route, that route can be patrolled almost as easily as the 100 diameter limit.
One factor that makes life easier for the pirates is merchant ship jump policy- I cannot find the reference, but ISTR a mention that only military vessels accelerate to jump, then decelerate from jump exit to planetfall. Theoretically, civilian ships accelerate halfway to their jump point, then decelerate to a "stop" before jumping. However, IMTU (if I ever again have MTU) that would be pointless, given the desire to match velocities with the target planet- not to mention the fact that there is no such thing as "stationary" in an absolute sense!

(pause for breath)

There are only two sensible possibilities for piracy between the jump point and planetfall (IMO).
First is the possibility of "opportunist" piracy- you have a ship, you are close to the jump point when another ship pops out of hyperspace. You have a short time to assess the ship, and whether or not any SDBs are within range to intervene- if all seems favourable, yo-ho-ho; if not you are just another harmless merchant ship. When no target pops up, you are still just another merchant ship. This fits in with the historic Norse i viking voyage- rather than being purely raiding voyages, you raid if there is a target, otherwise you trade.
The less random type is this; you observe the Captain or supercargo of a Free Trader buying commodity A on planet X. Planet Y (a convenient 1 parsec away) is a known lucrative market for commodity A.
You aim to leave just before the Trader, to be insystem just enough ahead to intercept it when it arrives.
For our PCs (obviously no respectable PCs would ever be the pirates :rofl:) the biggest threat of piracy is when a ship jumps on what would seem a similar vector, just before they do.
 
First is the possibility of "opportunist" piracy- you have a ship, you are close to the jump point when another ship pops out of hyperspace. You have a short time to assess the ship, and whether or not any SDBs are within range to intervene- if all seems favourable, yo-ho-ho; if not you are just another harmless merchant ship. When no target pops up, you are still just another merchant ship. This fits in with the historic Norse i viking voyage- rather than being purely raiding voyages, you raid if there is a target, otherwise you trade.
The less random type is this; you observe the Captain or supercargo of a Free Trader buying commodity A on planet X. Planet Y (a convenient 1 parsec away) is a known lucrative market for commodity A.
One problem with opportunist scenarios is that generally you can either visit starports and leave behind all sorts of clues to your identity or you can lurk in deep space and remain anonymous; you cannot do both. Imagine doing bank robberies if you needed to use a gold-plated Caddillac worth a lot more than the expected take for an escape vehicle and had to visit a gas station in every town you enter.

Another problem with opportunist scenarios is that if you're doing legitimate business, you're flying a ship that is about as well armed as your prospective victim. Even odds are not good odds for a pirate.
You aim to leave just before the Trader, to be insystem just enough ahead to intercept it when it arrives.
And if, to prevent something like that, System Control assign you a vector that will keep you too far from any other ships to do it?


Hans
 
If the pirates are dumb enough to practice piracy around worlds rich enough to have effective traffic control, they probably won't be pirates very long.
A poor world with D, E or X starport is probably going to have traffic control working on the "sky is big, spacecraft are small" principle.
Besides, however high the cost, another anonymous freighter is less a gold-plated Cadillac than the future equivalent of the ubiquitous white van...

Edited to add: for an idea of the limitations of traffic control, fly south out of Egypt (equivalent of a B starport) into Sudan (Khartoum would probably rate a D) and Ethiopia (IMO a C starport) and all of a sudden there is no radar, the radio contact is sporadic at best, and avoidance of other traffic (all following the same routes) becomes dependent on everyone reporting their position, and everyone's transponder working. At night, darkest Africa is NOT a misnomer...
 
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Since the section is labeled IMTU why not throw the parts of the OTU overboard that hinder piracy. Given that many of them only exist in the "perfect empire" of Clunky and GT anyway that shouldn't be that difficult.

So the navy is ineffective, more concerned with polisching brass and doing proper maneuver drills than with gunnery practice and patrolling. Most ships are concentrated in the depot systems and rarely leave. Nothing new, quite a few historical navies worked that way up until the late 19th century

The only naval vessels one might see are small patrol crafts <= 5000dtons. And those operate in packs, often tied to tenders due to lack of proper basing/resupplies. So the better populated systems will see a lot while lesser systems see few

The Empire is a nobility and nobels are prone to physical and mental inbreeding. After a thousand years most imperial nobles are living in a very own world mostly disconnected from reality. Sure there is the occasional "Wellington" equivalent but most are more like the last Zar or Lous XVI.

The nobility has power and therefor is corrupt. They consider the navy their "plaything" and command around ships as they like. Sure in theory the Commander can say no. But he might find out that he canned his career because Baron Inbreeds cousin is a high number on the promotion board.

What we read about the 3I is sprouted by noble historians. About as close to the mark as "De Belle Gallicum" or Tacitus. The reality is different. After a thousand years everyone is on the take. And one of the easier elements to fake is troop strength. That's why the parade was initially invented - allowing the ruler to count the troops he paid for

Promotion by payment is another option that would IMHO fit a corrupt/decadent 3I like the one shown by Mega/TNE. Expect a lot of second sons who coast on their names and not their abilities
 
If the pirates are dumb enough to practice piracy around worlds rich enough to have effective traffic control, they probably won't be pirates very long.
For effective Traffic Control, all you need is a sensor, a computer big enough to run a simple accounting program, and a communicator.

Now, enforcing traffic control requires system defenses, and certainly there are worlds too poor to afford system defenses. But if there are no system defenses, the pirate can just waltz in and do whatever he likes anyway, so there'd be no need to wait for targets of opportunity. Contrariwise, if there are system defenses, they have all the tools they need to implement traffic control.

A poor world with D, E or X starport is probably going to have traffic control working on the "sky is big, spacecraft are small" principle.
They're also goning to have very little traffic and the traffic that goes there will be armed. Such merchants will still be vulnerable to dedicated pirates in bigger, faster ships, but fellow merchants with questionable morals are going to be roughly even odds.

Besides, however high the cost, another anonymous freighter is less a gold-plated Cadillac than the future equivalent of the ubiquitous white van...
White vans don't cost tens of millions and don't take a year or more to build. If your opportunist trader has been doing business, he's left behind all sorts of clues to his identity, starting with the class of ship. Free Trader Murky Deeds showed up at Backwaterworld on 123-1105 and committed an act of piracy. Did it use a false name? I wonder where it got that false transponder? Those things aren't cheap. Anyway, let's check what ships of its class left worlds within 2 parsecs of Backwaterworld 8-10 days earlier. 14 in all? How many of them are accounted for as having arrived on other worlds around day 123? Why, every one except Free Trader Driven Snow! Let's put out a 'Wanted!' notice on it. You say the captain will probably buy another false transponder and change its name again? If Driven Snow was its real name, we already know where it was built and what year. On the chance that it was also a false name, let's backtrack it to its last annual maintenance, where we'll be able to get enough information to identify it (careless of the shipyard not to notice the false name, but you can't expect them to check for that sort of thing), after which it's just a matter of time before it is identified (a list of recent minor repairs alone will be as distinctive as dental records for a man)... at its next annual maintenance perhaps.


Hans
 
All this "we know" and "we can check" depends on a well working, fully integrated bureaucracy, steady data exchanges, regular flight plans...

Who says that this stuff exists? If I want pirats they sure won't IMTU.
 
All this "we know" and "we can check" depends on a well working, fully integrated bureaucracy, steady data exchanges, regular flight plans...
No, it just depends on people who conduct business keeping records.

Well, that and a law that allows someone to confiscate 10 million credit vessels that have commited piracy if they can just track them down, of course.


Hans
 
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How do you check the last annual maintainance of a ship, when that could (even with a jump1 ship) have been up to 30 parsecs away, and in any one of several dozen planets? And the answer could take 3 months to come back?
 
How do you check the last annual maintainance of a ship, when that could (even with a jump1 ship) have been up to 30 parsecs away, and in any one of several dozen planets? And the answer could take 3 months to come back?
You start with the last known port of call. If the port authorities have done their job, they've checked that the ship's maintenance was current before giving it leave to depart again. That'll give you the name of the place that performed the maintenance. If they didn't (Could have been a Class E starport), you backtrack another jump. This was an opportunistic attack, remember? That means the pirate-to-be conducted business along the way. Business leaves records. And while it might have traveled 60 parsecs since the last annual maintenance, odds are it didn't, as its movements have been dictated by random cargoes, which are just as likely to lead it back across its trail. Likelier, since area knowledge tends to be useful, so even free traders will tend to stick to one region and develop contacts etc. If it did, yes, it's going to take some time to get the information, but information travels by jump-6 (mostly). Human investigators travel by jump-2 or jump-3, and costs money too, but the prospective prize is worth millions of credits. You can buy a lot of HumInt for a fraction of that sort of money.


Hans
 
Hans, information RARELY travels much above J3. The X-boat system averages about 3.5, and a J6 net should be averaging J5.5 at best, before accounting for the lack of built in connections since the canonical J6 net isn't full time nor wide net, but key-worlds only.
 
I use this list as sort of an example of how piracy happens and how it is fought. It also is a good example of a colonial area and how piracy is used or developed in some areas and how military forces respond.

http://www.history.navy.mil/wars/foabroad.htm

1798-1800 -- Undeclared Naval War with France. This contest included land actions, such as that in the Dominican Republic, city of Puerto Plata, where marines captured a French privateer under the guns of the forts.

1801-05 -- Tripoli. The First Barbary War included the USS George Washington and USS Philadelphia affairs and the Eaton expedition, during which a few marines landed with United States Agent William Eaton to raise a force against Tripoli in an effort to free the crew of the Philadelphia. Tripoli declared war but not the United States.

1806 -- Mexico (Spanish territory). Capt. Z. M. Pike, with a platoon of troops, invaded Spanish territory at the headwaters of the Rio Grande on orders from Gen. James Wilkinson. He was made prisoner without resistance at a fort he constructed in present day Colorado, taken to Mexico, and later released after seizure of his papers.

1806-10 -- Gulf of Mexico. American gunboats operated from New Orleans against Spanish and French privateers off the Mississippi Delta, chiefly under Capt. John Shaw and Master Commandant David Porter.

1810 -- West Florida (Spanish territory). Gov. Claiborne of Louisiana, on orders of the President, occupied with troops territory in dispute east of Mississippi as far as the Pearl River, later the eastern boundary of Louisiana. He was authorized to seize as far east as the Perdido River.

1812 -- Amelia Island and other - parts of east Florida, then under Spain. Temporary possession was authorized by President Madison and by Congress, to prevent occupation by any other power; but possession was obtained by Gen. George Matthews in so irregular a manner that his measures were disavowed by the President.

1812-15 -- War of 1812. On June 18, 1812, the United States declared war between the United States and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland. Among the issues leading to the war were British interception of neutral ships and blockades of the United States during British hostilities with France.

1813 -- West Florida (Spanish territory). On authority given by Congress, General Wilkinson seized Mobile Bay in April with 600 soldiers. A small Spanish garrison gave way. Thus U.S. advanced into disputed territory to the Perdido River, as projected in 1810. No fighting.

1813-14 -- Marguesas Islands. U.S. forces built a fort on the island of Nukahiva to protect three prize ships which had been captured from the British.

1814 -- Spanish Florida. Gen. Andrew Jackson took Pensacola and drove out the British with whom the United States was at war.

1814-25 -- Caribbean. Engagements between pirates and American ships or squadrons took place repeatedly especially ashore and offshore about Cuba, Puerto Rico, Santo Domingo, and Yucatan. Three thousand pirate attacks on merchantmen were reported between 1815 and 1823. In 1822 Commodore James Biddle employed a squadron of two frigates, four sloops of war, two brigs, four schooners, and two gunboats in the West Indies.

1815 -- Algiers. The second Barbary War was declared by the opponents but not by the United States. Congress authorized an expedition. A large fleet under Decatur attacked Algiers and obtained indemnities.

1815 -- Tripoli. After securing an agreement from Algiers, Decatur demonstrated with his squadron at Tunis and Tripoli, where he secured indemnities for offenses during the War of 1812.

1816 -- Spanish Florida. United States forces destroyed Nicholls Fort, called also Negro Fort, which harbored raiders making forays into United States territory.

1816-18 -- Spanish Florida - First Seminole War. The Seminole Indians, whose area was a resort for escaped slaves and border ruffians, were attacked by troops under Generals Jackson and Gaines and pursued into northern Florida. Spanish posts were attacked and occupied, British citizens executed. In 1819 the Floridas were ceded to the United States.

1817 -- Amelia Island (Spanish territory off Florida). Under orders of President Monroe, United States forces landed and expelled a group of smugglers, adventurers, and freebooters.

1818 -- Oregon. The USS. Ontario dispatched from Washington, landed at the Columbia River and in August took possession of Oregon territory. Britain had conceded sovereignty but Russia and Spain asserted claims to the area.

1820-23 -- Africa. Naval units raided the slave traffic pursuant to the 1819 act of Congress.

1822 -- Cuba. United States naval forces suppressing piracy landed on the northwest coast of Cuba and burned a pirate station.

1823 -- Cuba. Brief landings in pursuit of pirates occurred April 8 near Escondido; April 16 near Cayo Blanco; July 11 at Siquapa Bay; July 21 at Cape Cruz; and October 23 at Camrioca.

1824 -- Cuba. In October the USS Porpoise landed bluejackets near Matanzas in pursuit of pirates. This was during the cruise authorized in 1822.

1824 -- Puerto Rico (Spanish territory). Commodore David Porter with a landing party attacked the town of Fajardo which had sheltered pirates and insulted American naval officers. He landed with 200 men in November and forced an apology. Commodore Porter was later court-martialed for overstepping his powers.

1825 -- Cuba. In March cooperating American and British forces landed at Sagua La Grande to capture pirates.

1827 -- Greece. In October and November landing parties hunted pirates on the islands of Argenteire, Miconi, and Androse.

1831-32 -- Falkland Islands. Captain Duncan of the USS Lexington investigated the capture of three American sealing vessels and sought to protect American interests.

1832 -- Sumatra - February 6 to 9. A naval force landed and stormed a fort to punish natives of the town of Quallah Battoo for plundering the American ship Friendship.

1833 -- Argentina - October 31 to November 15. A force was sent ashore at Buenos Aires to protect the interests of the United States and other countries during an insurrection.

1835-36 -- Peru - December 10, 1835, to January 24, 1836, and August 31 to December 7, 1836. Marines protected American interests in Callao and Lima during an attempted revolution.

1836 -- Mexico. General Gaines occupied Nacogdoches (Tex.), disputed territory, from July to December during the Texan war for independence, under orders to cross the "imaginary boundary line" if an Indian outbreak threatened.

1838-39 -- Sumatra - December 24, 1838, to January 4, 1839. A naval force landed to punish natives of the towns of Quallah Battoo and Muckie (Mukki) for depredations on American shipping.

1840 -- Fiji Islands - July. Naval forces landed to punish natives for attacking American exploring and surveying parties.

1841 -- Drummond Island, Kingsmill Group. A naval party landed to avenge the murder of a seaman by the natives.

1841 -- Samoa - February 24. A naval party landed and burned towns after the murder of an American seaman on Upolu Island.

1842 -- Mexico. Commodore TA.C. Jones, in command of a squadron long cruising off California, occupied Monterey, Calif., on October 19, believing war had come. He discovered peace, withdrew, and saluted. A similar incident occurred a week later at San Diego.

1843 -- China. Sailors and marines from the St. Louis were landed after a clash between Americans and Chinese at the trading post in Canton.

1843 -- Africa -- November 29 to December 16. Four United States vessels demonstrated and landed various parties (one of 200 marines and sailors) to discourage piracy and the slave trade along the Ivory coast, and to punish attacks by the natives on American seamen and shipping.

1844 -- Mexico. President Tyler deployed U.S. forces to protect Texas against Mexico, pending Senate approval of a treaty of annexation. (Later rejected.) He defended his action against a Senate resolution of inquiry.

1846-48 -- Mexican War. On May 13,1846, the United States recognized the existence of a state of war with Mexico. After the annexation of Texas in 1845, the United States and Mexico failed to resolve a boundary dispute and President Polk said that it was necessary to deploy forces in Mexico to meet a threatened invasion.

1849 -- Smyrna. In July a naval force gained release of an American seized by Austrian officials.

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it is actually about four times as long as what is posted here.
 
Hans, information RARELY travels much above J3. The X-boat system averages about 3.5, and a J6 net should be averaging J5.5 at best, before accounting for the lack of built in connections since the canonical J6 net isn't full time nor wide net, but key-worlds only.
Wil, the canonical average for the X-boat network is 2.6 parsecs, which is one reason why I disregard that particular bit of canon (Alternatively use it to show that the X.boats must be practically irrelevant). As you know, the cheapest way to convey goods long distance is either by jump-2 or jump-3 (depending on which basic ship design assumptions you choose), and the difference is small enough that I'd argue that jump-3 would be preferred over jump-2 for the reduced time alone (astrography permitting). That means an informal jump-3 "net" exists between most systems, except the real backwaters. But the real backwaters are practically never more than one jump away from the "trade net". And systems on the trade net are practically never more than two jumps away from a subsector capital. And subsector capitals will be connected by "NavyNet", aka the Imperial Navy's jump-6 couriers.

Nevertheless, there are situations where getting a good, solid identification on a tramp wil take many months. However, you don't really need a good solid identification to intercept our hypothetical opportunistic pirate. All you need is a motive for someone in authority to take a good look at all free traders of a given class. If we use your figure of a bit over jump-3 for information dispersal, our friend will be overtaken by the news within a month. If he sticks to visiting worlds without system defenses, he's not going to make much of a showing as a trader, and there's always the chance of running into a navy patrol even in backwaters. Once a ship is subjected to the sort of forensic examination modern science is capable of, what are the odds the fake transponder won't be noticed, the fake log entries not detected?

As for motive, an old Beowulf or Marava is worth, what, 10 million credits? Even if it's worth half that, it's still a powerful, entirely pragmatic motive for the authorities to be interested, over and above any pique they might feel towards pirates in general.


Hans
 
Hans, I suspect the real difference between our viewpoints is in the integrity of the systems involved; in three different meanings of systems.
1. In the terms of the equipment required to operate traffic control and navigation- this equipment is temperamental, and requires constant maintainance and supervision. (A friend of mine came within 35 feet of the top of a mountain in Africa, at 200mph, because the antenna of the navigation beacon he was required to use had become flooded, and guided him onto a hilltop, instead of between the hilltops as it was designed to do).
2. In terms of the processes involved- familiarity breeds contempt- if nothing has gone wrong in a long time, it is human nature to start to assume nothing will go wrong. Furthermore, if a system is at the edge of our competence or experience to operate, it is harder to look for faults within that system.
3. In terms of star systems as political entities; IMTU there are unscrupulous governments within individual star systems which overlook "errors in book-keeping", whether through corruption or as a way of harming competitors.

In answer to your other point that poorer worlds are going to have very little traffic, IMTU the Megacorps have the transport between major worlds pretty much under control. Between Regina and Efate, a Free Trader is not going to be able to compete with Tukera Lines daily service of 10000+ DTon Liners; between Yori and Yurgen's World (population 200), there may only be a need for a cargo ship a dozen times a year (when another load of that planet's export is ready), so it is not worth Tukera's time diverting a ship there, even though Yurgenium is worth Cr5000000 a ton. However, if a pirate (perhaps with a tipoff from a disgruntled ex-miner) knows that Yurgen Yurgensson, the mine owner, generally sends the shipments out every fourth week, he can take a chance- and when he meets the trader in system, he has a short time to decide if the target is weak enough to attack. The target, in turn, has to decide whether to fight (Hey- that's only another Type A, we can fight him off) or surrender all or part of the cargo (that upper turret needs a new motor, it sticks sometimes, and the hull plating took a lot of damage in that last storm...)

Anyway, none of this means my way is the right or more realistic way; I try and keep it consistent; our TUs are very different places, but hopefully both fun to play in!
 
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No, it just depends on people who conduct business keeping records.

Well, that and a law that allows someone to confiscate 10 million credit vessels that have commited piracy if they can just track them down, of course.


Hans

Depends all on an interstellar government that does enforce rules instead of making them and then has the necessary structures in place to "watch the watchers". Historically piracy has operated with "colonial governments" looking the other way a lot (i.e the Britisch Colonies pre 1776)

And it assumes that the structures to check/confiscate ships exist. That the naval forces are effective and cooperative. Again history shows that this more often than not doesn't work. Even in the late 20th century civilian and military organisations foulded up big tracking airplanes or taking over the tracking of fugetives (And we are talking hostage takers and copkillers here!)

The "Bwaps and Bureaus" Empire of GT may work that way with unbribable Starport Officers and all. I seriously doubt the "rotten" Empire of MT/TNE does. Regions like Gateway will be "Pirats of the Caribean" in Space with a weak Empire and some quite powerful non-imperial states. And what one does IMTU is even less constrained by the constraints of what GDW cobbled together over the years
 
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