Do the Citizens of the Imperium Accept or Reject Piracy

[rancke]

Multiple ships lurking out near the 100 diameter jump points that are waiting in a silent running mode for outbound shipping.

Given realistic detection ranges and absent the existence of stealth fields, there is no such thing as silent running in space.

They are close enough to each other to help get the goods, but far enough apart that if the SBD's are on the way they can all run in different directions and reduce the chances of getting caught and losing all the booty. Maybe even a decoy ship to lure in a passing merchant with a false flag SOS...or the same to lure away and nearby SBD's.

Even if it was possible for a ship to lurk undetected near the 100 diameter limit, the ship would first have to get there, which involves maneuvering, which is detectable at very long ranges.

They also have to intercept their prey, which again means maneuvering. Or lurking near the place here the outbound ships are at rest relative to the pirate ship, which means either the starport or ome place at the 100 diameter limit. If the planetary efense force is smart, it has a ship stationed at the 100 diameter limit to establish a safe departure point; if not, departing ships have an entire hemisphere with a 100 diameter limit to chose for their departure point, which means that the odds that a pirate ship would be lurking just there are poor. And if a pirate hip got lucky, what's to prevent the merchant from jumping early?

Incoming ships are harder to protect because they can arrive anywhere along a 180 degree band across the 100 diameter limit. But by the same token, it's hard for pirates to know where to lurk.

Finally, multiple ships require greater investments and greater overhead.

All the above is moot, though, because it is not posible for pirate to lurk at or inside the 100 diameter limit.

Then the pirates need a base to repair and recreate. A Port Royale or Tortuga in space somewhere. This means infrastructure and that needs a cooperative effort among crews. Pirate kings and councils if you will.

And concealment. The Imperium is notorious for dealing harshly with governments that support piracy.


Hans

 

[sabredog]

Given realistic detection ranges and absent the existence of stealth fields, there is no such thing as silent running in space.

Not to quibble, but of course it can be done - use passive ELINT systems, reactionless drives, fusion reactors don't exactly have smokestacks leaking heat, and that 100 dia sphere is pretty dang big and the cops can't be everywhere at once. Plus, you'd have to know where to look in the first place.

Even if it was possible for a ship to lurk undetected near the 100 diameter limit, the ship would first have to get there, which involves maneuvering, which is detectable at very long ranges.

So, whay can't you just cruise on out there using a false transponder saying you are just some innocent trader, then power down. Or, if yo are worried about the energy burst from the jump not being detected and looking suspicious then have a bigger ship drop you off then jump. Use your imagination.

They also have to intercept their prey, which again means maneuvering. Or lurking near the place here the outbound ships are at rest relative to the pirate ship, which means either the starport or ome place at the 100 diameter limit. If the planetary efense force is smart, it has a ship stationed at the 100 diameter limit to establish a safe departure point; if not, departing ships have an entire hemisphere with a 100 diameter limit to chose for their departure point, which means that the odds that a pirate ship would be lurking just there are poor. And if a pirate hip got lucky, what's to prevent the merchant from jumping early?

IMTU, and this is the IMTU section, there are traffic corridors that are regulated by speeds and type of traffic in them. Yes, the cops tend to patrol them, but we are still talking about a heck of a lot of space out there. It's not like the ships have to squeeze out past some port breakwaters here and cannon are sited there. Plus, IMTU, the pirates tend to be outside Imperial borders...they don't usually last long inside them. (Remember this is the IMTU thread and I never used the OTU Imperium - its all from scratch).

As for catching the merchie, well go to high G burn and go get them. One ship makes a high G pass and gets off a couple shots to damage the drives or bridge, and the other pirate moves in slower to match velocity and force a boarding. A lot of merchants will just jettison the cargo and hope the pirates let them run anyway, and the pirates are not usually looking to steal 100 tons of goods. The cash, weapons, and the high tech/ high value stuff tends to mass less. And the pirates will (using my example above) be alerted as to what is on board the trader, too. Decoy beacons and ships can also sidetrack the cops.

If all goes according to plan the pirates will be out of there by the time the cops twig to what's up (don't forget that comms take time, too, and an SOS takes time to get to the cops depending on distance...this isn't Star Trek) the bad guys are getting ready to jump. If it goes nadly for the pirates, well, that's just downright Darwinian.

Ans as for a merchant jumping early...if he doesn't want to risk hefty fines, loss of his ship by misjump, or lose his Masters license then he'll follow the regulations of the "FAA" (actually the Imperial Space Authority). Heck, Lloyds of New London would revoke underwriting his insurance and bond if any merchant captain (commercial that is, Free Traders are, well, freelancers) dared jump outside the safety regs. Better to dump some of the cargo and stay in business.

Incoming ships are harder to protect because they can arrive anywhere along a 180 degree band across the 100 diameter limit. But by the same token, it's hard for pirates to know where to lurk.

That's why good intel from pirate on the ground lurking around the port comes in. A bribe here, blackmail there, and now you know the flightplan of some fat prize.

Finally, multiple ships require greater investments and greater overhead.

Thats where cooperation among gangs, clans, whatever comes in. Like in the days of yore. Imagination...it's a sci-fi game.

All the above is moot, though, because it is not posible for pirate to lurk at or inside the 100 diameter limit.

Er, why not?

And concealment. The Imperium is notorious for dealing harshly with governments that support piracy.

The Imperium never has existed in my universe. I have an Empire of Man, though... and while they look unfavorably on piracy, there's not a lot they can do about it given that 99% of it takes place outside the borders. Sometimes they might get some young Naval captain in a corvette or frigate that gets all eager to fly off to death or glory hunting pirates, but for the most part that's what player characters and their NPC counterparts (rivals, friends, etc.) are there for.

 

[rancke]

Not to quibble, but of course it can be done - use passive ELINT systems, reactionless drives, fusion reactors don't exactly have smokestacks leaking heat, and that 100 dia sphere is pretty dang big and the cops can't be everywhere at once. Plus, you'd have to know where to look in the first place.

The infrared radiation from an object a human can survive in alone can be detected at far longer ranges.

So, whay can't you just cruise on out there using a false transponder saying you are just some innocent trader, then power down.

Because merchant ships don't make money when they're idling. You're detected when you arrive and queried by system control. And you're right, a false tranponder signal will satify them for a bit. Then they assign you a flight path to the starport, because if you're a legitimate merchant ship, you'll want to discharge your freight and passengers a.s.a.p., get a new cargo, and get out of the system. And once you deviate from expected behavior, you become a Object Of Interest.

Or, if you are worried about the energy burst from the jump not being detected and looking suspicious then have a bigger ship drop you off then jump. Use your imagination.

Congratulations, that's a new one (And I mean that sincerely). But you've just increased your investment and overhead about five-fold. Also, the ship that dropped you off did so without arousing suspicion. That means it visited the starport, conducted business, and left, leaving behind all sorts of evidence that can be used to identify it at a later date (make and model, etc.). Now you go ahead and wait for prey to show up. As I mentioned above, your infra-red radiation alone is going to get detected, but let's assume you manage to intercept a ship before that happens. I'm assuming you were dropped off on the way out of the system. So you'll be lurking within weapons range of the picket ship (Yes, I'm assuming a picket ship at the departure point. It's the logical place to deploy one). You will be detected the moment you move to intercept the target. Assuming the picket ship is far gone in sloth, you MAY have a shot at your prey, but I sure wouln't care to be part of your crew. Still, I have to hand it to you, it's an interesting scenario. I must spring that one on my players one day (Assuming I ever get a campaign going again ).

IMTU, and this is the IMTU section, there are traffic corridors that are regulated by speeds and type of traffic in them. Yes, the cops tend to patrol them, but we are still talking about a heck of a lot of space out there.

Not really. Ship's weapons reach a long way, and when you reduce a volume to a line, you reduce the relevant amount of space a lot.

It's not like the ships have to squeeze out past some port breakwaters here and cannon are sited there.

No, it's like they have to fly from the starport to a fixed point at the 100 diameter limit.

Plus, IMTU, the pirates tend to be outside Imperial borders...they don't usually last long inside them. (Remember this is the IMTU thread and I never used the OTU Imperium - its all from scratch).

What's your point? If you're telling me that that's how things are in your TU, why should I contradict you? It's your TU. Why are we arguing at all, in that case?

As for catching the merchie, we'll go to high G burn and go get them. One ship makes a high G pass and gets off a couple shots to damage the drives or bridge, and the other pirate moves in slower to match velocity and force a boarding.

It takes time to match velocities, even with high-G engines. Have you actually worked out such a scenario, or do you just assume it'll work? Where are the defenders and what are they doing in the meantime. They, too, can make high-G passes and shoot holes in your drives.

Oh, nearly overlooked this: It wasn't just one ship that got dropped off by the "legitimate" freighter, it was a whole squadron. With that sort of resources at your diposal, you'll probably get better results by attacking a world with a small defense force and take it over. You can plunder the whole world and lie in wait for incoming ships that can't jump away because their fuel tanks are empty. You'll have leisure to install a new crew, refuel them, and jump away with them.

A lot of merchants will just jettison the cargo and hope the pirates let them run anyway, and the pirates are not usually looking to steal 100 tons of goods. The cash, weapons, and the high tech/ high value stuff tends to mass less. And the pirates will (using my example above) be alerted as to what is on board the trader, too. Decoy beacons and ships can also sidetrack the cops.

Outgoing ships can escape by jumping from inside the 100 diameter limit.

If all goes according to plan the pirates will be out of there by the time the cops twig to what's up

What, in 20 seconds?

...(don't forget that comms take time, too, and an SOS takes time to get to the cops depending on distance...this isn't Star Trek) the bad guys are getting ready to jump. If it goes badly for the pirates, well, that's just downright Darwinian.

Com moves at the speed of light. So does detection. You don't think that suddenly detecting half a dozen maneuver drives lighting up will sound the alarm? And that's assuming they didn't detect you powering up your power plant first.

And as for a merchant jumping early...if he doesn't want to risk hefty fines, loss of his ship by misjump, or lose his Masters license then he'll follow the regulations of the "FAA" (actually the Imperial Space Authority). Heck, Lloyds of New London would revoke underwriting his insurance and bond if any merchant captain (commercial that is, Free Traders are, well, freelancers) dared jump outside the safety regs. Better to dump some of the cargo and stay in business.

Oh, you mean that in your TU, being in danger of getting caught by pirates is not considered justification for risking an early jump?


Hans

 

[sabredog]

The infrared radiation from an object a human can survive in alone can be detected at far longer ranges.

Only if you know where to point your IR detector...space is large and ships don't leak heat that much. Albedo might be something else, but that is easily taken care of. Hulls don't heat up from friction out there and how much heat does a reactionless drive give off anyway? I guess thats up to the individual referee. Personally, I don't assume it's all that much.

Not really. Ship's weapons reach a long way, and when you reduce a volume to a line, you reduce the relevant amount of space a lot.


No, it's like they have to fly from the starport to a fixed point at the 100 diameter limit.

For both of these you are assuming you are flying in civilized space. I agree that all my examples would be largely moot inside an Imperium, but as I said before most adventuring and pirating is outside the borders of my version of an Empire. And the rules never say that there is only one jump point. Just gotta get 100 dia away.

What's your point? If you're telling me that that's how things are in your TU, why should I contradict you? It's your TU. Why are we arguing at all, in that case?

uh, cuz I thought this was the "in My Traveller Universe" thread.

It takes time to match velocities, even with high-G engines. Have you actually worked out such a scenario, or do you just assume it'll work? Where are the defenders and what are they doing in the meantime. They, too, can make high-G passes and shoot holes in your drives.

Of course I have, and yes they can...but that's what makes for all the fun.

Oh, nearly overlooked this: It wasn't just one ship that got dropped off by the "legitimate" freighter, it was a whole squadron. With that sort of resources at your diposal, you'll probably get better results by attacking a world with a small defense force and take it over. You can plunder the whole world and lie in wait for incoming ships that can't jump away because their fuel tanks are empty. You'll have leisure to install a new crew, refuel them, and jump away with them.

Sometimes they have indeed done that, but why milk a single cow to death in one pass when you can just keep picking off the ones on the outside of the herd. You hit a whole world and try to keep it and then the authorities might decide that going outside the borders to squash you is worth the trouble it might cause diplomatically.

Outgoing ships can escape by jumping from inside the 100 diameter limit.

And risk misjump. Pirates don't always just kill everyone. No planks to walk and all that.

What, in 20 seconds?

Of course not, it depends on how far the SBD's are. Timing is everything. Pirates are not stupid.

Com moves at the speed of light. So does detection. You don't think that suddenly detecting half a dozen maneuver drives lighting up will sound the alarm? And that's assuming they didn't detect you powering up your power plant first.

Speed of light comms require a lock. Speed of light detection depends on the gear you are using. Pirates can't get a hold of some military surplus, or stolen, stealth gear?

Oh, you mean that in your TU, being in danger of getting caught by pirates is not considered justification for risking an early jump?

In civilized space, yes.

 

[Darkhstarr]

I would have to say pirate preferences would be to quietly take the ship during or after loading & before liftoff. With company-owned ships (particularly at the low end of the quality scale ) personnel turnover is constant & slipping a few ringers aboard wouldn't be hard. Or finding a disgruntled officer is even better (historically & even currently that worked well). With a free trader vessel, that would be harder, since FT's are a closely knit culture(at least IMTU-based off Andre Norton & Poul Anderson). The best way to board would be to pretend to be the local navy. An overlooked but very lucrative is barratry, where you take on a cargo, re-direct it to another, often more lucrative destination & sell the cargo. Barratry is probably the most practiced maritime crime today though it doesn't get the publicity. Also pirates can act as agents for shippers who want to get rid of a ship & collect the insurance money either by paying the pirates to steal the ship or hiring the pirates as the crew & have them jump it into oblivion.

And your pirates can just be the local navy (there are plenty of historical & current examples) shaking down incoming crews for money, loot, or companionship.

Of course profit is like piracy itself a matter of intelligence gathering. Something not much on one world might be priceless on another. Historical example from the Roman Empire was the trade in Baltic Amber which the Balts didn't value as much as the Romans valued the stuff-but the Balts were mad about cheap Egyptian scarabs & scarab beads. Piper's Space Viking & Junkyard Planet (a.k.a Cosmic Computer) have examples of this.

Of course slave raiding is lucrative, especially outside the Imperium. I'm not talking about unskilled labor though that has a market. I'm talking about kidnapping people with technical, political, or economic expertise, very valuable on lodtech planets.

It's always good to posses Letters of Marque and/or Reprisal. My wife's pirate, Bette Noire, though she belongs to a large pirate syndicate, carries several Letters of Marque. In point of fact she prefers to be called a privateer.

 

[Rev Round]

Piracy was a resort for the people who were repressed by government and class systems. There are cases where the pirate crew were better looked after than they were ever likely to be by their governments forces. Pensions, invalided with pay and chance to rise above the limited status within a class ridden society. Look to the most repressive governments in UWP and there is your engine for piracy. Look for poor worlds too. Illegal activities are generally deligitimised old practice.

By and large piracy depends on bluff threat. A big display. Noisy, bright, and full of the stuff of nightmares confirmed.

 

[ganymede]

Ranke: shut down all systems but life support, with a crew practiced in quick-firing the power plant and systems? I beg to differ! There is silent running in space! There are even rules for it in most incarnations of space combat in Traveller. And you don't have to have a stealth field, but any salty-dog Captain worth his, er, salt, is going to have some kind of EM Mask or stealth mask (depending on what version of Traveller you play) on his vessel! In Megatraveller, the typical raider is going to usually have a moderate signature, which can be reduced to faint through running only enough power to operate life support, which can be reduced one level more through EM Masking! Tada! Silent running!

There's always minor maneuvering activity going on at 100 diameters, that's where everybody jumps? Plus, I could see the savvy ChEng of a pirate vessel rigging up a burst device to make it look like a ship jumping....

One more thing: what about the PC captain who got in over his head with his custom build ship, and before skipping on the bank, decides to do a little commerce-raiding to augment his income? There's a pirate, unsanctioned, operating alone. Maybe he knows of a "Space Tortugas," somewhere he can fence his goods for script and get repairs with no questions asked, and then innocently exchange his script in a legitimate port for a ship payment.

And Magash forbid that there's boiling tension between two client states and one of them decides to issue some Letters of Marque! In fact, hasn't the Imperium done that in the past, to harass enemy shipping lanes?

Just my Cr0.02, already slotted at the door.

 

[aramis]

Ganymede: even with Everything shut off, any survivable ship is going to be at least 250°C/K above the backdrop. Probably about 290° above background.

You'll stand out in the IR just by blackbody radiation, unless backed by a planet or star.

 

[Icosahedron]

I've always assumed that ships work similar to CombEnv suits, except the 'chill can' is bigger. Coolant in the hull carries the heat signature to a single location where it is either stored or beamed away in the direction least likely to have an enemy presence.

Admittedly, not something every Free Trader will have installed, but military/scout ships may have chameleon IR chillers as standard.

A pirate might rig up a 'panic room' with such a system and switch off heating to the rest of the ship.

Maybe I'm burying my head in the sand because I want stealth IMTU, but I just feel that if stealth is important, in the course of fifty centuries someone will find a way...

 

[aramis]

The chillers need some way to dump the waste heat. Vacuum really is a GREAT thermal insulator. The only viable ways to get rid of the heat are

(1) dump hot stuff overboard after mechanically using it as a refrigerant
(2) radiate heat off as IR
(3) not generate heat in the first place.

Under IR, a 30° difference is profound. a nigh-300° is going to stand out like a sore thumb.

Let's talk those three options...
1) those chemical chills are not going to last long. Mostly because they won't carry enough heat away without being a flare themselves.
Anything you pump heat into to refrigerate something else is going to have a gain over the starting that is profound. In short, expect it to be 700°-2000°C coming out. that's a Flare....
2) Radiating heat off... directionality means having to know exactly where the enemy is. It's further complicated by on-board thermal trasfer and the 3000° radiator issue...
3) Also not possible with manned craft. Human life safely exists in a range roughly 260°K to 320°K (-13°C to 47°C). Outside that range, breathing is hazardous.

The other issue is conductance. Your "storm shelter" idea is nice, but the ship itself is hundreds of times more conductive than the blackbody radiation, and energy seeks equilibrium, plus the outside is losing blackbody radiation at its surface temp... so the interior heat wicks out to the hull... on the apollo missions, the thermal wicking was sufficient to keep the shaded side from dropping below -5°C, and the lit side from rising above 30°C...

Plus, metal has a high specific heat; shedding the energy stored in its temperature is not easy.

One of the interesting calculations is that Even now, the core of the voyager probes is still getting wicked heat from the radiothermal generators on the boom... plus the heat of the current still working the on-board computers and transmitters.

Stealth in this case is "Obvious".... you scatter the area with hot dust (high specific heat dust)... you can't miss that something is out there, but you can't tell what it is until the IR cools on that dust...

FYI, the Shuttle uses method 2. The radiators, on IR, glare... but the shuttle will overheat just on internal LS and command functions within a couple hours without them.

 

[Psion]

Coming to this thread late, but a few assumptions I make:

1) Most civilians don't have good passive IR sensors. Scout ships and military vessels, OTOH, would certainly see operational ships.

2) The 100 diameter limit is not where a typical pirate ambushes targets. It's deep within the 100 diameter limit, where
-a) refueling ships are typically headed to/from
-b) ships dare not quickly jump, for risk of a misjump, giving a faster pirate plenty of time to overtake a slower merchant.
-c) there are plenty of moonlets, rings, etc., to hide behind

2) Radiating heat off... directionality means having to know exactly where the enemy is. It's further complicated by on-board thermal trasfer and the 3000° radiator issue...

Difficult--near impossible--at TL 7/8. At TL 11+... not so much.

Still, I don't consider it standard equipment, but would consider IR masking/directional bleeding part of what MT calls an EM masking package.

 

[rancke]

1) Most civilians don't have good passive IR sensors. Scout ships and military vessels, OTOH, would certainly see operational ships.

No one (AFAIK) claims that a pirate can't operate in an undefended system (We may wonder if the traffic in an undefended system is heavy enough to provide a pirate with prey, but that's a whole other question). The pirate's problem is that the area that has to be defended is much smaller (comparatively speaking, in terms of detection and weapons ranges) than the areas that had to be defended during the heyday of piracy here on Earth, or even in modern times. The pirates we "piracy sceptics" talk about are those who strike in systems with defenses. So the civilian traffic don't need military grade IR detectors; the local SDBs will have them.

2) The 100 diameter limit is not where a typical pirate ambushes targets. It's deep within the 100 diameter limit, where
-a) refueling ships are typically headed to/from
-b) ships dare not quickly jump, for risk of a misjump, giving a faster pirate plenty of time to overtake a slower merchant.
-c) there are plenty of moonlets, rings, etc., to hide behind

a) Ships moving between the jump limit and the world will be subject to system traffic control. A disguised pirate will be assigned a flight path. Said flight path will not bring it close to any other ship (Making sure that such is the case is a simple and elementary precaution). The moment it deviates from its flight path, alarms are going to ring.

b) The pirate has the same problem with risky jumps that its prey has, and while it is closing in on its prey, system defense boats are closing in on the pirate. Unlike the pirate, they don't have to match vectors with their prey; they just need to get within weapons range.

c) What moonlets and rings?

2) Radiating heat off... directionality means having to know exactly where the enemy is. It's further complicated by on-board thermal trasfer and the 3000° radiator issue...

Difficult--near impossible--at TL 7/8. At TL 11+... not so much.

Difficult at any TL (Until Ancient TLs, of course ). You're up against a fundamental physical limit.

Now, I've proposed a device I call a "Subspace Heat Sink". It allows a ship to bleed excess heat into "subspace" (whatever that may be; maybe the medium thrusters thrust against?). But it's not canon.

Still, I don't consider it standard equipment, but would consider IR masking/directional bleeding part of what MT calls an EM masking package.

An EM masking package makes it more difficult to aim at the ship, in the same way that shining a powerful light in someone's face makes it difficult to aim for you. And in exactly the same way, it makes you easier to detect.


Hans

 

[Psion]

No one (AFAIK) claims that a pirate can't operate in an undefended system (We may wonder if the traffic in an undefended system is heavy enough to provide a pirate with prey, but that's a whole other question).

I certainly wasn't disputing that piracy would occur with any great frequency in well defended systems.

I was addressing a specific point in the comment you were replying to. While it's difficult to mask thermal emissions in space, you have to be equipped to look for them. While its reasonable to assume that ships equipped to look for other ships (what MGT calls military sensors, what MT calls passive sensors), it's reasonable to assume that less-than-paranoid civilian ship design might not.

So the civilian traffic don't need military grade IR detectors; the local SDBs will have them.

Yes they would, as discussed above. A pirate operating in a system with well deployed SDBs is a little suicidal. But I don't assume (and as far as I can recall, the OTU does not assume) that the Imperial Navy takes responsibility to deploy SDB's every system, and the Imperium is rife with worlds that have no capability to field their own SDBs.

a) Ships moving between the jump limit and the world will be subject to system traffic control.

This is an assumption I don't share.

I could only see system traffic control regulating areas beyond 100 dia of the mainworld in systems with red zones or large, well populated systems with a well equipped planetary navy.

As far as I ever run things, if a merchant does not intend to stop at the mainworld (no suitable trade, no wilderness refeuling on the mainworld), they plot a jump to 100 dia of a suitable gas giant, wilderness refuel, and move on.

b) The pirate has the same problem with risky jumps that its prey has, and while it is closing in on its prey, system defense boats are closing in on the pirate.

Again, not assuming the pirate would be operating where SDBs are known to be present. Now if the SDB's do a sting, that's another matter. But them's the risks of piracy.

c) What moonlets and rings?

The ones that are pretty normal around gas giants? Is this seriously a point of contention?

Difficult at any TL (Until Ancient TLs, of course ). You're up against a fundamental physical limit.

Again, assumptions we don't share, I'm afraid. To make ships hosting fusion plants a credible thing, you need heat management well in advance of what we have today. Some products cite features of ships like radiating vanes. Directional radiating is not inconsiderable, and would have to be part of any EM masking technology.

Now, I've proposed a device I call a "Subspace Heat Sink". It allows a ship to bleed excess heat into "subspace" (whatever that may be; maybe the medium thrusters thrust against?). But it's not canon.

If were going non-canon, in techs approaching that where you find wonder technologies like black globes, you might also find devices like Alastair Reynolds cryo-arithmetic engines. That's the sort of tech I would assume would occur at techs 14+.

An EM masking package makes it more difficult to aim at the ship, in the same way that shining a powerful light in someone's face makes it difficult to aim for you. And in exactly the same way, it makes you easier to detect.

No. In MT, you calculate EM emission levels for ships, which determines the difficulty of PASSIVE EM scans. EM masking packages reduce the emission level by one step.

 

[rancke]

A pirate operating in a system with well deployed SDBs is a little suicidal. But I don't assume (and as far as I can recall, the OTU does not assume) that the Imperial Navy takes responsibility to deploy SDB's every system, and the Imperium is rife with worlds that have no capability to field their own SDBs.

Right on the first count, but not on the second. According to High Guard, any world with the requisite technology can build warships for its own defense regardless of the quality of its starport, and any world can procure ships from any other world in its subsector. So all a world need to field an SDB is enough money to buy and maintain it. Of course, low-population worlds won't be able to afford it (unless subsidized by the Imperium), though there are a few dodges for defenses on the cheap (e.g. an obsolescent cargo ship converted into a carrier for half a dozen fighters, a starmerc to escort the yearly trade ship). But worlds with lowish populations are the very same worlds that have limited trade.

a) Ships moving between the jump limit and the world will be subject to system traffic control.

This is an assumption I don't share.

I could only see system traffic control regulating areas beyond 100 dia of the mainworld in systems with red zones or large, well populated systems with a well equipped planetary navy.

As far as I ever run things, if a merchant does not intend to stop at the mainworld (no suitable trade, no wilderness refeuling on the mainworld), they plot a jump to 100 dia of a suitable gas giant, wilderness refuel, and move on.

I assume merchants generally don't jump to a system unless they intend to conduct business there. If they do need to go through an intermediate system, and the flow of traffic is big enough to attract a pirate but not big enough to cause either of the two systems the route connects to station a picket at one of the gas giants in the system, and there is only a limited number of wilderness refuelling options in the system, then the merchant may indeed run into a pirate. My remarks dealt only with the mainworld.

The ones that are pretty normal around gas giants? Is this seriously a point of contention?

I was thinking about mainworlds, but even around gas giants moonlets and planetoids are very sparesly spread.

Again, assumptions we don't share, I'm afraid. To make ships hosting fusion plants a credible thing, you need heat management well in advance of what we have today. Some products cite features of ships like radiating vanes. Directional radiating is not inconsiderable, and would have to be part of any EM masking technology.

The simplest assumption is that fusion reactors don't generate much heat.

If were going non-canon, in techs approaching that where you find wonder technologies like black globes, you might also find devices like Alastair Reynolds cryo-arithmetic engines. That's the sort of tech I would assume would occur at techs 14+.

But it's not the sort of thing Traveller rules to date have assumed.

No. In MT, you calculate EM emission levels for ships, which determines the difficulty of PASSIVE EM scans. EM masking packages reduce the emission level by one step.

But is that an artifact of the combat resolution system or a reflection of the "real" universe (ie. the OTU)? In CT detection ranges are unrealistically low. Is that because TL15 sensors really are worse than what we can build on Earth today, or because the detection rules are a simplification of "reality"?

It's one thing to accept that fusion reactors will be very efficient in the future; it's quite another to swallow that IR detectors are less capable than what we know for a fact is possible.


Hans

 

[Psion]

Right on the first count, but not on the second. According to High Guard, any world with the requisite technology can build warships for its own defense regardless of the quality of its starport,

For it's own defense != able to afford (or justify the cost of) placing permanent SDB emplacements in worlds far from the mainworld.

and any world can procure ships from any other world in its subsector. So all a world need to field an SDB is enough money to buy and maintain it. Of course, low-population worlds won't be able to afford it

Like I was saying, the Imperium is rife with worlds not able to maintain their own planetary navies. So much for wrong on the second count.

But worlds with lowish populations are the very same worlds that have limited trade.

The exact situation I was referring to when I said "if a merchant does not intend to stop at the mainworld (no suitable trade"

If they do need to go through an intermediate system, and the flow of traffic is big enough to attract a pirate but not big enough to cause either of the two systems the route connects to station a picket at one of the gas giants in the system, and there is only a limited number of wilderness refuelling options in the system, then the merchant may indeed run into a pirate. My remarks dealt only with the mainworld.

Right. And again, my remarks assume few stops at mainworlds, unless the mainworld would be conducive to a pirate presence (low tech, little off-world contact).

I was thinking about mainworlds, but even around gas giants moonlets and planetoids are very sparesly spread.

Sure. But moonlets within 100 dia (or even 10) are common enough, and if your pirate comes out of hiding when the merchant is refueling, the merchant doesn't have enough time to make it to safe jump distance before the pirate can intercept.

But it's not the sort of thing Traveller rules to date have assumed.

Your the one who brought up non-canon stuff; I was just making conversation, bringing up ideas, etc.

(Placement of the following quote rearranged for juxtapositional purposes)

The simplest assumption is that fusion reactors don't generate much heat.
(...)
But is that an artifact of the combat resolution system or a reflection of the "real" universe (ie. the OTU)? In CT detection ranges are unrealistically low. Is that because TL15 sensors really are worse than what we can build on Earth today, or because the detection rules are a simplification of "reality"?

So, you are going to wave off heat generated by fusion reactions in one breath, and then hold me to predictably plausible technologies in the next? I cry foul. You're stacking the deck to make your preferred outcome the plausible one.

I certainly haven't done a study of how realistic the MT sensor rules are, which would have to include probabilistic analysis of how likely limited scanning resources would be to detect and identify as a threat a given target. But I don't think you have either. Qualitatively, they seem more plausible than anything else going, pulling in a number of concrete factors that other versions of the game gloss over.

I reserve the right to stack my deck of assumptions the way that makes cool stuff (like space pirates) plausible.

It's one thing to accept that fusion reactors will be very efficient in the future; it's quite another to swallow that IR detectors are less capable than what we know for a fact is possible.

Simply making fusion reactions more "efficient" is not going to negate heat management issues. Even if you come up with some technology that bypasses some heat cycle and thus is somehow more efficient than a carnot engine (as you were hasty to point out above, not something that the traveller rules to date have assumed), you are not going to power all your devices 100% efficiently, and that waste heat has to go somewhere.

As for IR detectors, sure. Given sensors of sufficient capability, you should be able to detect ship signatures at considerable distance. If you have the need to look for ships. I.E. Military ships.

What is plausible, however, is economics. A merchant who doesn't have regular need for an IR observatory on his ship wouldn't spend hard earned money to install and maintain one. (Of course, if you are a merchant in a pirate plagued frontier, paying a few extra bucks to add passive sensors to a ship nominally designed for operations nearer the core could prove a wise investment.)

 

[aramis]

Given that the major population worlds can support SDB's (3 or so) in every other system, and still have a CruRon, DesRon, and EsRon each in the imperial section of the marches per the numbers in Striker... or more...

Also, all canonical designs in MT & later include IR and UV as a normative practice.

 

[rancke]

So, you are going to wave off heat generated by fusion reactions in one breath, and then hold me to predictably plausible technologies in the next? I cry foul. You're stacking the deck to make your preferred outcome the plausible one.

The heat generated by fusion is a byproduct. The salient part of the process is that you take two hydrogen molecules and get a helium molecule+power. You assumed that the existence of fusion technology must imply heat management technology that is not actually mentioned anywhere. I suggested a simpler possibility is that the heat generated is not so big as to require those hypothetical technologies. In other words, I suggest that future technology would be more advanced.

The IR detection is quite different. To comform to the CT detection rules, the sensors of the future has to be less effective than they are today. I hope you can appreciate the difference.

Simply making fusion reactions more "efficient" is not going to negate heat management issues. Even if you come up with some technology that bypasses some heat cycle and thus is somehow more efficient than a carnot engine (as you were hasty to point out above, not something that the traveller rules to date have assumed), you are not going to power all your devices 100% efficiently, and that waste heat has to go somewhere.

Actually, I suggest that that is precisely what Traveller to date has assumed. IIRC there's a small dustbin sized fusion reactor mentioned somewhere in an MT product, and nowhere does it say anything about using it for roasting marshmallows. Come to that, the fact that you can power spaceships with fusion power plants without elaborate heat management technology implies it too... .


Hans

 

[Psion]

The heat generated by fusion is a byproduct. The salient part of the process is that you take two hydrogen molecules and get a helium molecule+power.

It's not just "power". It's not electricity. It's kinetic energy and annihilation photons. You need to make that to useful energy. Now, I've given you the benefit of assuming that you are going to get away without making this a carnot engine and doing a heat conversion (unlikely and well into the realms of unspoken technology you've forbade me), but even then, you'll have waste heat. And even if you don't, if you power 100 GW of items on your ship, you'll have waste heat.

But if you can directly tap photons and turn them into useful power without regard to thermodynamic fact, that sounds like a pretty useful heat managing technology all by itself.

The IR detection is quite different. To comform to the CT detection rules, the sensors of the future has to be less effective than they are today. I hope you can appreciate the difference.

No, you've asserted it. I've seen nobody demonstrate to me with any degree of rigor that today, we can build a passive sensor that will scan the whole sky in a usefully short amount of time and detect room temperature targets over system distance and make it portable and durable enough to be hosted as a minor component of a 200 dt ship.

What he have today is IR observatories that require liquid nitrogen cooling to not be blinded by the station's own heat and will detect something if it's pointed in the right direction.

But again, I'm not saying that such things won't exist; MT materials on passive sensors suggest they do. I'm just saying that not every merchant will own one.

Actually, I suggest that that is precisely what Traveller to date has assumed. IIRC there's a small dustbin sized fusion reactor mentioned somewhere in an MT product, and nowhere does it say anything about using it for roasting marshmallows.

A dustbin reactor that sits in your ship, or your station, on your campsite is much less of a problem, since
a) you don't live inside it, you can engineer it to be as hot as your parts will take internally
b) you can arrange to use conduction or convection as a heatsink.

I'd go further to say if you can store fuel and lhyd in tanks, you have heat management technology sufficient to radiate your waste heat any way you wish.

Again, this is just you making the assumptions that invalidate the result you don't want versus me choosing the ones that favor mine. I don't happen to think your assumptions are either more plausible or more "in line with the OTU" than mine; we can either fairly make the assumptions that work in our games as we please.

 

[mbrinkhues]

IMHO the questions/decisions to be made are:

Is there a market

IMHO there is one. Most people don't ask to many questions if offered a good deal that looks resonably legal. And there are quite a few historical examples (British American colonies, Christian and Islamic Mediterrain nations) of whole nations accepting pirated and/or privateered goods.

The amount of tracing technologie (from Serial numbers to micro engravings to embedded miniature Droyne) that goes into products is a GM's choice. The more traceability he builds in, the less illegal sales there will be.

Do planets spend what they can

The real world is full of nations that are seriously underspending on their defences (Compare Germany to France or Great Britain in example) and use the funds for other things (i.e Propellor beanies<<<Wind generators) So just because a planet CAN spend a few billions does not mean he will.

Here a lot depends on what "version" of the 3I and it's nobility you are using. The MegaTraveller/TNE "rotten to the core" version will be one less likely to spend on useful things

Do plantes buy what they can

Again real life is full of examples (i.e French LeClerc or Rafael, Japanese T90, US Sgt. York) of nations NOT buying overseas but instead producing locally to "keep the own industry going". Since the 3I does not interfer with local politics (much) the planetary rules might prefer keeping their own TL9 or TL10 industry alive

The amount of "buying off world" will influence the capabilities of the defence units and their chances against higher tech (TL12/13) pirats and raiders

Where is the Navy

Since the Depots cover whole systems and there is little to do in jump one can assume that most major fleet elements never leave the Depot systems. This also would make some sense given the lack of FTL communications and the relatively slow strategic speeds. Asuming the colonial/2. rank fleet being older ships and simply assume they are mostly mothballed/caretaker crew/4 weeks per year exercise units takes care of that

Canon gives us a problem in the BoringMarches with a squadron of Footballs running around loose but for i.e the Gateway there is no such problem (And the SM problem can be ignored IMHO)

This leaves mostly lighter units (<= 5000dton, maybe even <= 1000dton) for patrolling. In the SM this will be mostly "border" duty against the Zhos, in Gateway this is handicapped by the layout of the sector

Political situation

One of the major problems of the SM is IMHO that they are "cold war german border" with all the matching security. By choosing a less dangerous sector one can circumvent that. Similar a post FFW game with the fleet units depleted should work

Power and will to use it

Who willing is the 3I to go after pirats or privateers and more important any nations supporting/housing them. The less willing the 3I is, the more these groups have a save heaven

 

[rancke]

The amount of tracing technologie (from Serial numbers to micro engravings to embedded miniature Droyne) that goes into products is a GM's choice. The more traceability he builds in, the less illegal sales there will be.

Has the concept of forensic science been lost? If not, is it possible to determine, by analysis of trace elements in the alloys, what planet the metal was mined and the age of the ship? Unless you really think that the answer is no, a thorough forensic examination will tell you that the suspicious ship is one of six ships of its class built at Yard 17 between 1087 and 1089 rather than the ship it purports to be. And if the whereabouts of five of those ships are known and the sixth was captured by pirates two years ago, then you really don't need any serial numbers or micro engravings or RFID chips or molytags to figure out it's a stolen ship.

[Not that I consider the proposition that people wouldn't festoon a multi-million credit object with serial numbers and micro engravings and RFID chips and molytags to be particularly plausible.)

Do planets spend what they can

The real world is full of nations that are seriously underspending on their defences (Compare Germany to France or Great Britain in example) and use the funds for other things (i.e Propellor beanies<<<Wind generators) So just because a planet CAN spend a few billions does not mean he will.

No nation or world will spend more on defense than they feel a need for. So in a universe without piracy, defenses may be so poor that piracy be possible. In a universe where piracy exists, on the other hand...

The rest of your arguments essentially say that it depends on the details of the individual GM's universe. And that's absolutely true, especially since this thread is in the IMTU forum. But that also means that the question and the answers are meaningless. The answer to the question is Yes, no, maybe, who knows, who cares, and what's on the telly tonight?

It's hard enough arguing when we try to talk about a common universe. Making the universe optional makes the arguments completely futile.

IMO, of course.



Hans