Do the Citizens of the Imperium Accept or Reject Piracy

[rancke]

So, who is this Josephine of Efate anyway, never heard of her around the Moot? And as I stated, Baron Regina speaks for himself, the Duke of Regina, Norris can of course express his own and probably superior views on the subject, I mean the man was INI after all.

That's right, Norris is Marquis of Regina, not baron. My mistake. Or Strephon's mistake, perhaps. It's bad enough having one noble named after the Duchy of Regina and another named after Regina the world (even if they are the same man), but to have two nobles named after the same world seems... sloppy.

Joephine Hortalez Aella is the Countess of Efate, a realive of Norris' on his mother's side and the one Norris deputized to act for him as Duke of Regina while he is away at Mora doing his Archduke thing. Mentioned on p. 18 of Nobles.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Just to try and get a handle on this on a less abstract level, are there any 'privateers' from after the year 1900? Were they captured as POWs?

No. Privateering ended with the Treaty of Paris in 1856. I'd refer you to the wikipedia article on privateers, but it is lacking in citations. But here's the one on letters of marque: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque.

I believe that WW2 U-boat crews recieved a cold reception. While not 'privateers' they certainly were 'Combatants' (rather than Pirates) and yet they tended to not be taken as POWs (AFAIK).

They were members of the German Navy and thus subject to the Geneva Conventions. If they got killed while tying to surrender, they were the victims of a criminal act. (Not saying anything about how often that happened anyway).

It would seem contrary to human nature to treat those who prey on civilians as 'soldiers' ...

Ships carrying supplies are just as legitimate targets as munitions factories.

What you overlook is that everybody used to employ private men-of-war, as they were also known. If you had treated enemy privateers as pirates, the enemy would have treated your own the same way. Privateers got a bad name, not because they were privateers, but because some of them broke the rules and became pirates.


Hans

 

[spinwardpirate]

No. Privateering ended with the Treaty of Paris in 1856. I'd refer you to the wikipedia article on privateers, but it is lacking in citations. But here's the one on letters of marque: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque.

Actually... the US of A didn't sign on. Though we have sort of paid lip service to it.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/agency/navy/privateer.htm

With some exceptions... according to wiki...
"In December 1941 and the first months of 1942, the Goodyear blimp Resolute was operated as an anti-submarine privateer based out of Los Angeles. As the only US craft to operate under a Letter of Marque since the War of 1812, the Resolute, armed with a rifle and flown by its civilian crew, patrolled the seas for submarines.[45]"

45. Shock, James R., Smith, David R., The Goodyear Airships, Bloomington, Illinois, Airship International Press, 2002, pg. 43, ISBN 0-9711637-0-7

 

[spinwardpirate]

and of course... Blackwater has taken a former NOAA survey ship (McArthur) and sent her out after pirates...
read more here

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

I don't believe I have had the pleasure.

That's right, Norris is Marquis of Regina, not baron. My mistake. Or Strephon's mistake, perhaps. It's bad enough having one noble named after the Duchy of Regina and another named after Regina the world (even if they are the same man), but to have two nobles named after the same world seems... sloppy.

Joephine Hortalez Aella is the Countess of Efate, a realive of Norris' on his mother's side and the one Norris deputized to act for him as Duke of Regina while he is away at Mora doing his Archduke thing. Mentioned on p. 18 of Nobles.

Hans

Yeah, but how Canon is she, like how many degrees from Shigulii?

 

[Captain Midnight]

and of course... Blackwater has taken a former NOAA survey ship (McArthur) and sent her out after pirates...
read more here

They've offered to go out, but they haven't yet actually deployed. Several companies have checked in with Blackwater to get details, and somebody may actually hire them, but it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Captain Midnight]

I believe that WW2 U-boat crews recieved a cold reception. While not 'privateers' they certainly were 'Combatants' (rather than Pirates) and yet they tended to not be taken as POWs (AFAIK).

Five U-boats were captured during the war and the crews taken prisoner, but the nature of submarine warfare makes it difficult for crews to surrender if their ship is badly damaged. Sometimes the sub would be able to get to the surface, and sometimes the situation could be such that crews could get off, but it would be highly unusual.

There may have been incidents where attempts to surrender by U-boat crews were not honored, but I've never heard tell of any. Instead, it seems that they were viewed as potentially useful sources of intelligence.

Grand Admiral Donitz was tried after the war on charges of violating the Second London Naval Treaty (which put in place various rules about the legitimacy of targets), but testimony that Allied forces had done the exact same thing resulted in him receiving no sentence for that offense; he wound up serving 10 years in prison, and died in 1980.

 

[boomslang]

Which deals with conflicts between subdvisions of member worlds, not tradewar and piracy. What about them do you feel support your interpretation?

The, uh, "privateering" bits, for starters.

All warfare ends up being fought over economics in the final analysis, regardless of what the official declarations may claim. And wars by proxy maintain exactly the level of "plausible deniability" a megacorp would desire. 3I corsairs will typically operate as "cut outs" to preserve this.

Certainly, the 3I operates an anti-piracy campaign (cf. Leviathan), but piracy is rampant within the 3I -- hence the disdain the unarmed Zhodani merchants feel.

Ah yes, that's a big conundrum. Almost as big as this one: If starship armaments are ubiquitous, why is piracy rampant?

After all, an armed free trader has a good chance of fighting off a canonical pirate ship, inflicting millions of credits worth of damages in the process, or even capturing it. Which is nice from the point of view of the PCs crewing the free trader, but does rather tend to put a crimp in the viability of piracy as a commercial buiness venture.

Only if you operate from the conventional assumption, reinforced by the Official Line, that the purpose of piracy is to directly seize materiel assets -- through violent and expensive confrontations -- for the commercial benefit of the corsairs. If you realize that piracy is a most useful cover for large-scale economic leverage, market manipulation, and shaping public policy, you can begin to view corsairing as simply another form of allowed mercenary ticket -- as a business expense -- for a megacorp and/or a planetary government.

Most "piracy" in the 3I will be off-the-record privateering, backed by the deep pockets of megacorporate interests... this allows the nobility to maintain a negative public perception of the practice -- renouncing it and devoting some modest amount of resources to fight it -- while the shippers, suppliers, and insurers rely upon it to suppress competition.

Again, compare the Zhodani Consulate, where piracy is simply not tolerated by the navy; since starships require servicing at starports on an annual basis, a simple blanket prohibition on starship weaponry (no hardpoints built on commercial/private craft, for example) for non-military vessels within 3I space would kill almost all piracy (lowering insurance rates in the process), and it is a simple matter to send obsolete cruisers outside the 3I to eradicate extra-Imperial pirate bases of operations (again, cf. Leviathan).

One final thought: why does Al Morai require paramilitary (remember, they mount military-grade particle accelerators which are incidentally ideal for piracy since they tend to kill crew and leave starship engineering intact) "route protectors" along the same shipping routes it competes with Tukera on, when Tukera does not feel a similar need? (Because Tukera can rely upon the IN whereas Al Morai feels somehow that it can't? What is up with that?)

:smirk:

 

[rancke]

[The Imperial Rules of War] deals with conflicts between subdvisions of member worlds, not tradewar and piracy. What about them do you feel support your interpretation?

The, uh, "privateering" bits, for starters.

There is no mention of privateering in the library data entry about the Imperial Rules of War that I can find.

All warfare ends up being fought over economics in the final analysis, regardless of what the official declarations may claim. And wars by proxy maintain exactly the level of "plausible deniability" a megacorp would desire. 3I corsairs will typically operate as "cut outs" to preserve this.

This just says something that appear to be a a pirate attack may be a disguised corporate action instead. It does not prove that it is, nor how frequent such actions are. As I said before, your original statement is merely a possible interpretation of canonical facts, not an irrefutable conclusion.

Certainly, the 3I operates an anti-piracy campaign (cf. Leviathan), but piracy is rampant within the 3I -- hence the disdain the unarmed Zhodani merchants feel.

You appear to have access to canonical material that I haven't seen. hat Zhodani merchants? Would you care to provide a reference or, better yet, a quote?

Ah yes, that's a big conundrum. Almost as big as this one: If starship armaments are ubiquitous, why is piracy rampant?

After all, an armed free trader has a good chance of fighting off a canonical pirate ship, inflicting millions of credits worth of damages in the process, or even capturing it. Which is nice from the point of view of the PCs crewing the free trader, but does rather tend to put a crimp in the viability of piracy as a commercial buiness venture.

Only if you operate from the conventional assumption, reinforced by the Official Line, that the purpose of piracy is to directly seize materiel assets -- through violent and expensive confrontations -- for the commercial benefit of the corsairs. If you realize that piracy is a most useful cover for large-scale economic leverage, market manipulation, and shaping public policy, you can begin to view corsairing as simply another form of allowed mercenary ticket -- as a business expense -- for a megacorp and/or a planetary government.

Once again, what you call the "Official Line" is actually information conveyed in the Authorial Voice.

But be that as it may, the operative word here is 'business'. War costs money. If the company is not recouping its investment by seizing material assets, then it must recoup it by increasing its market share. While the mere fact that tradewars exist show that there will be occasions where a company will feel that potential future gains justifies a trade war, there's no evidence that such occasions are numerous enough to support enough piracy to make it rampant. On the contrary, the primary evidence we have for the existence of tradewars is the very same text that I just quoted from.

One final thought: why does Al Morai require paramilitary (remember, they mount military-grade particle accelerators which are incidentally ideal for piracy since they tend to kill crew and leave starship engineering intact) "route protectors" along the same shipping routes it competes with Tukera on, when Tukera does not feel a similar need? (Because Tukera can rely upon the IN whereas Al Morai feels somehow that it can't? What is up with that?)

What makes you think that Tukera doesn't have paramilitary ships of its own?


Hans

 

[epicenter00]

I was reflecting upon history and thought how piracy may actually be a benefit for certain worlds in the Imperium. All to often in Traveller we have been asking the hows or the ecology questions.

For Traveller citizens certainly would reject downright thievery but they might accept something like highway robbery.

I think there's some real problems with the basic tenets of the Traveller universe that you'll encounter once you really start getting into "ecology" of piracy.

I'll start with this cause-and-effect chain - "given that..."

...that piracy is possible, which means disregarding in-game effects of jump mechanics, speed of light limitations, armament and tonnage of vessels, and problems of making ships "undetectable" in space. Problem: I think posters on CotI have pretty much proven time and time again that "space piracy" wouldn't be possible for a number of reasons.

... the Third Imperium takes a very measured view of technological advancement with differences in "recent" tech levels occurring in an incremental manner spread over decades. Problem: Why wouldn't neighboring polities without such a Vilani view of technological advancement catch up and surpass the TI (I'm looking at you, Solomani and Zhodani).

...the Third Imperium is a huge space and it can take years and years for news to travel from Spinward Marches to the Solomani Rim, making dissemination of news slow at best and simply not worth the time at worst. Problem: No real problem here, it's just a "fact of life" in the Imperium.

... piracy would be pretty lucrative, actually. You can knock a ship over, if it's packed with non-perishable valuables, especially like high-tech goods, you could probably simply take the time to tool it over "a year away" from where you knocked over the ship and you could sell it there, pretty much undetectably. You could also fence it in some neighboring polity to the 3I.

A year away, you could essentially be "anywhere" and you could find plenty of buyers: low tech planets, industrial worlds who'd like prototypes to study (and copy), and so on. Given the slow pace of technological change in the Third Imperium, such high-tech goods wouldn't be outdated even after sitting on them for a year (unlike if you did the same thing in the real-world). You wouldn't have to go to some world that "doesn't ask questions" - you could sell it pretty much anywhere, just passing yourself off as a free trader who purchased a "broken lot" on speculation.

You wouldn't even need grimy, desperate pirates. This is an actual lucrative business model - it's high risk at the front-end but after that, a return on your investment is guaranteed (unless your ship is knocked over by other pirates). Knock a ship over (somehow), take the goods, and sit on them for a few months, then move them far away and sell them. If you're knocking over ships semi-regularly (really, this would be the only rationale for so many ships armed to the teeth in Traveller except for some idiotic cowboy mentality reigning in the TI, which it doesn't seem to), you could have a cycling process of goods being seized, goods being stored, and goods being moved out. Heck, cartels of pirates might organize themselves and fence cargoes from distant pirates in return for sending their own cargoes out to the pirates.

 

[boomslang]

There is no mention of privateering in the library data entry about the Imperial Rules of War that I can find.

Of course there isn't; that's the whole point.

Zhodani merchants? Would you care to provide a reference or, better yet, a quote?

It's in their Alien Module. The combination of the Guardians and a no-nonsense navy make armed commercial vessels both unnecessary and inappropriate in Consulate space.

But be that as it may, the operative word here is 'business'. War costs money.

War only necessarily costs taxpayers money; war can be highly profitable for a correctly-positioned corporation. Cf. "The Military-Industrial Complex".

If the company is not recouping its investment by seizing material assets, then it must recoup it by increasing its market share. While the mere fact that tradewars exist show that there will be occasions where a company will feel that potential future gains justifies a trade war, there's no evidence that such occasions are numerous enough to support enough piracy to make it rampant. On the contrary, the primary evidence we have for the existence of tradewars is the very same text that I just quoted from.

And again, if piracy is not rampant, why are commercial and private starships nearly always armed? Space combat is expensive and deadly, and yet all merchant captains seem compelled to prepare themselves for it. As a consequence, we may reasonably infer that piracy is at least perceived as rampant-enough in the 3I to be a significant operational concern, and also that the IN is clearly perceived as being inadequate to the task of suppressing it.

What makes you think that Tukera doesn't have paramilitary ships of its own?

Tukera has something much worse than a high-profile paramilitary force: Tukera has the Vemene (also sometimes typoed to 'Vermene').

The fact that Tukera tacitly admits the existence of a BlackOps section within its operating divisions begs the question of exactly what the mega is up to that it won't publicly acknowledge.



It would appear that the difference in perspective between us is that you take the canon at face value, whereas I deconstruct it in order to read between the lines. Clearly an archetypical YMMVIYTU situation, if there ever was one...

o:

 

[Spinward Scout]

Gobbling the little fish

You know, there's a semi-legal way to Piracy. Salvage rights. Small ship (200 tons or less) gets attacked by a Corsair (400 tons) and the crew spaced, but "before" the Pirates can either get the cargo to their ship or take the victim ship under their control, a Heavy Freighter (1,000 tons) looms in and scares the Pirates off shooting wildly, saving the day. With the crew spaced, tho, the Heavy Freighter has no other choice but to claim salvage rights and take the small ship into their hold. File the proper forms for salvage, sell it all, and split the proceeds with the "Pirate crew". If you did this every third or fourth system you get to (every couple of months - never in the same system twice - change all ship markings), no one may catch on. Of course, the Heavy Freighter would be owned by a company called PiraCorp.

o:

:devil:

 

[rancke]

There is no mention of privateering in the library data entry about the Imperial Rules of War that I can find.

Of course there isn't; that's the whole point.

That's clear as mud. Could you perhaps elucidate a bit?

Zhodani merchants? Would you care to provide a reference or, better yet, a quote?

It's in their Alien Module.

By 'reference' I meant a page reference. Though since Zhodani is one of the books I don't have, a quote would be nice.

The combination of the Guardians and a no-nonsense navy make armed commercial vessels both unnecessary and inappropriate in Consulate space.

You mean that in a society where anti-social behavior is actively searched for and "cured", the absence of piracy is due to the lack of a need for it?

But be that as it may, the operative word here is 'business'. War costs money.

War only necessarily costs taxpayers money; war can be highly profitable for a correctly-positioned corporation. Cf. "The Military-Industrial Complex".

I hope I don't get it in the neck from CotI's own enforcers of polite behavior when I label that statement as nonsens. Sure, a company can make money on war if someone else is conducting it and buying the equipment from the company. But that's not what you're talking about here. If a company wants a covert strike team to dress up as pirates and attack another company's shipping, the payment for the 'pirate' ship, the salaries, the repair bills, the logistics, everything comes out of the company's own coffers. And at a considerable mark-up, since the need to keep it covert will inflate salaries and complicate logistics.

And again, if piracy is not rampant, why are commercial and private starships nearly always armed? Space combat is expensive and deadly, and yet all merchant captains seem compelled to prepare themselves for it.

Because the OTU is a fictional universe and, unlike the Real Universe, does not come with a built-in guarantee of self-consistency. Which means that there may, on rare occasions, occur a statement somewhere in canon that is incompatible with another canonical statement. (I know it's hard to believe, but it has happened ).

As a consequence, we may reasonably infer that piracy is at least perceived as rampant-enough in the 3I to be a significant operational concern, and also that the IN is clearly perceived as being inadequate to the task of suppressing it.

Now, that's much better, and quite different from your original statement. You see, what I objected to was that you, upon seeing two mutually exclusive statements, arbitrarily pointed to one of the two and said "This one is wrong". I, on the other hand, see two mutually incompatible statements and don't feel that there is enough evidence to say which one is wrong, only that they can't both be true. (I'm simplifying both our arguments to make a point, obviously).

What makes you think that Tukera doesn't have paramilitary ships of its own?

Tukera has something much worse than a high-profile paramilitary force: Tukera has the Vemene (also sometimes typoed to 'Vermene').

Why can't it have both?

The fact that Tukera tacitly admits the existence of a BlackOps section within its operating divisions begs the question of exactly what the mega is up to that it won't publicly acknowledge.

There's nothing tacit about Tukera's admission of the existence of the Vemene. It simply doesn't admit that it does anything illegal. The Vemene is labled as a 'covert security agency'. This does not mean that the agency is secret. It means that the actions it takes to fulfil it's purpose are covert. There's a library data entry about the Vemene in TTA:

"Vemene: The covert security agency of Tukera Lines. The agency's official mission is to thwart piracy, hijacking, theft, and sabotage against Tukera's ships and planetary installations. Critics charge that the real mission of the Vemene is to suppress Tukera's competition by any means necesary, legal or illegal."

I asked above why Tukera couldn't have a para-military force in addition to the Vemene. I will go one better and ask, how can it not have both? Is the Vemene so effective that Tukera don't need security guards to patrol its fences?

It would appear that the difference in perspective between us is that you take the canon at face value, whereas I deconstruct it in order to read between the lines.

The difference is that I start from the assumption that what I'm told in Authorial Voice is true (though absolutely not necessarily the whole truth). Only if this leads to inconsistencies in the world-view do I go looking to decontruct such statements. There's simply so much of the OTU still undocumented to make it worthwhile to spend time on stuff that isn't inconsistent.


Hans

 

[Peter Schutze]

>low tech planets, industrial worlds who'd like prototypes to study

why deal with pirates etc when you can easily and legally order one in from a couple of 'hexes' away ? most subsectors have a fairly broad range of tech levels so unless its tl14+ you're looking for, any TL should be in easy reach

Im not arguing morals .... just convenience and business logic/ commonsense ..... unless of course those buyers are after whatever happens to be offered to be used as their prototype

>why are commercial and private starships nearly always armed? Space combat is expensive and deadly, and yet all merchant captains seem compelled to prepare themselves for it

its their Xth amendment right under imperial space law to bear arms ?

 

[aramis]

Because the pirates can usually sell below cost+shipping.

 

[saundby]

Seems to me piracy is canon, why else:

LBB2 1981 pg6:

Piracy: A starship may be attacked by pirates while entering or leaving a system. Similar encounters may involve customs agents or military vessels, including blockades. The ship encounter table later in this book indicates the procedure.

LBB2 1981 pg 35:
The suffix P on any ship type can be construed as pirate; such a ship will probably attack, or at least try to achieve a position where it can make the attempt.

in the core rules?

IMTU it exists because nobody much cares what the small fry do among themselves, and it can be used and manipulated by various vested interests to serve their own needs, like any other form of crime.

Pirates do it because they think they can, they may or may not be correct. If they are smart they probably have an angle.

I'm no expert on canon. Piracy is clearly part of the game, though.

Laws aside, the IN is staffed and directed by people who have their own interests directing their actions. Nobles in charge of ships may see chasing criminals as beneath them. White glove types are more interested in keeping the ships trim and ready for some great action that may never come. Penny pinchers may not want the waste of actually using ships in action. The good ones are either too busy already or in the process of having their enthusiasm kicked out of them by the system.

If you envision an efficient Empire that actively upholds its laws, then yeah, piracy would be a poor career choice. I think it depends on your take on the 3I and what you want from your game more than anything else.

My 3I is rotten, but not completely so. Piracy lives in the rotten bits, pays ice, and pays as well as other forms of crime under similar circumstances.

 

[rancke]

Because the pirates can usually sell below cost+shipping.

In fact, they have to. Criminals seldom realized more than 10% on the stuff they steal -- 20% if they're lucky. (And no, I don't have a reference for that. It's just the percentages that I've seen in numerous independent fictional works).


Hans

 

[aramis]

Knowing persons who have both purchased and fenced goods (and have since done their time, most of them), it depends. Most of the black market goods sold about 60-90% of MSRP; the criminals I knew claimed to fence for between 10% and 30% of retail prices, often by use of pawn shops, for non-serial-numbered goods. I know that a certain local pawn shop buys video games "No Questions Asked" at $5 if in case with booklet, $2 if cased or with book, and $1 if a naked disk, and sells for twice that. Since the videogames generally range from $15 to $60, typically $20-$50, that's 10%-25%.

Stolen smokes often went for local retail... avoidance of ID checks.
Stolen firearms often sell for about 75% of new... as do many well kept used firearms; unlawful ones (full auto) often sell for more than double the list price. Or, more correctly, those are the prices I've been offered by persons I know to have been attempting (unsuccessfuly) to sell such to me.

The relative pricing varies widely based upon the licity of the item in the point of sale, the traceability of the item's ownership, and the local demand.

 

[rancke]

Seems to me piracy is canon...

No one disputes that. It's canon all right. Unfortunately, the rules don't actually explain how a pirate ship manages to lie in wait for arriving starships in just the right place to intercept them without being intercepted by system defenses. Or, assuming pirates only strike in systems without sytem defenses, make a living preying on ships of roughly the same combat potential as their own. If pirates used bigger ships or hunted in packs, they might make more sense, although that's not really a given; more or bigger pirate ships means a much bigger overhead.

IMTU it exists because nobody much cares what the small fry do among themselves, and it can be used and manipulated by various vested interests to serve their own needs, like any other form of crime.

Piracy is not like any other form of crime. Piracy has a very high entry qualification. You have to own a ship worth tens of millkions of credits. Not just a speedboat and half a dozen SMGs.

Piracy exists IMTU because pirates are FUN. Unless they use more or bigger ships than the one the PCs are in, in which case they may not be quite so much fun for the players.

Pirates do it because they think they can, they may or may not be correct. If they are smart they probably have an angle.

Pirates who hang about in systems trolling for prey (i.e. the ones from the ship encounter table) don't have much of an angle, though.

Laws aside, the IN is staffed and directed by people who have their own interests directing their actions. Nobles in charge of ships may see chasing criminals as beneath them.

Dignity aside, pirates fly around in ships worth tens of millions of credits. Ships that, by the logic governments have been using throughout history, are forfeit to the authorities if they (the authorities) get their hands on them. Whenever a national ship captures a pirate ship, someone earns a lot of money. That's a powerful motive for taking an interest in catching pirates.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Stolen firearms often sell for about 75% of new... as do many well kept used firearms; unlawful ones (full auto) often sell for more than double the list price. Or, more correctly, those are the prices I've been offered by persons I know to have been attempting (unsuccessfuly) to sell such to me.

That has to be direct to customer sales. Retailers don't usually pay that much for their merchandize.

The relative pricing varies widely based upon the licity of the item in the point of sale, the traceability of the item's ownership, and the local demand.

True, but I suspect the average is closer to 10% than to 75%. And it would be a matter of luck, at least for pirates who lurk at jump limits waiting for random prey to show up.


Hans