Do the Citizens of the Imperium Accept or Reject Piracy

[rancke]

from Star Wars, but sounds perfectly like a sector duke to a local world's head of state...

"That's not fair; we had a deal!"
"I have altered the deal... pray I don't alter it further."​

Gee, doesn't sound like a sector duke to me. This sounds like the ruler of a powerful Imperial member world, though:

"My Lord, this sector is not your property by divine right. It is a trust given to you by the Emperor. Your noble title comes at a price. It obligates you to treat your charges fairly and according to the laws and customs that govern interaction between the Imperium and its member worlds. I shall be bringing charges of malfeasance against you in the Sector Court, and I shall also make sure the Emperor is apprised of your breach of faith."​

As I point out every time you bring up that old "The Imperium is a government of man, not of laws" catchphrase, the fact that the Imperium have courts and judges show beyond any dispute that the Imperium does have laws. So does the handful of Imperial laws and regulations quoted in various canonical sources. Chris Thrash has a whole list of them on his website. Go take a look if you don't believe me.



Hans

 

[aramis]

A rather short list, and not complete, either, missing at least one T4 reference... (the shudassham accords)

Named Laws ("High Laws," IE, p. 42), Regulations, and Documents:

"Imperial appointments" (Adv 1, p. 40)
Imperial Charter (DA 3b, p. 12, 17)
"home rule provisions" (DA 3b, p. 12, 17)
Imperial charter (Supp 8, p. 40; Supp 11, pp. 14-15)
Imperial Code of Military Justice (ICMJ, JTAS #10, p. 31)
Imperial Edict 97 (Adv 1, p. 40; Supp 8, p. 32)
Imperial Freight Regulations (Ch #31, p. 21)
Imperial Navigation Act of 103 (Adv 13, p. 46, et al.) / "interstellar
assistance laws" (DA 5a, p. 8)
Imperial Safety Regulations (JTAS #5, p. 31; DA 4a, p. 7)
letters of enfoeffment (Supp 11, pp. 35-37)
letters patent (patent of nobility) (Supp 11, p. 34)
Official Secrets Act (JTAS #4, p. 13; GT:RoF, p. 17)/ "Imperial secrets
laws" (Adv 13, p. 11)
salvage laws (JTAS #1, p. 30)
suppression orders (Supp 11, p. 15)
Warrant of Restoration (M:0, pp. 83-84)

None of which establish a protocol of "Rule of Law"...
They establish that some laws exist.

Knowing that you've probably never encountered actual "rule by men" in real life, it's quite a wake up call when one encounters it in real life. For example, many of the Alaskan aboriginal villages are rule-by-elders, not rule-by-law, despite being subject to a higher government that is rule-by-law. When you do unpopular things, the Elders of the village make a decisions as to your fate. Only when the offense is something they are forbidden to deal with it is dealt with by rule of law: Murder, intoxicant posession/use, etc. The federal laws on aviation are often ignored, including the prohibitions of forcing persons to leave into IFR weather... because, in the bush, the "arm of the law" is only what the local authorities choose to and/or can enforce. And often, the authorities of law are not present in such places... only the elders have real presence and authority.

Rule by men does not preclude laws, but does subordinate enforcement and interpretation to the senior man present, and doesn't include the idea that one MUST enforce the extant written laws. He or she might be called on it later...

Laws in cultures of "Rule by men" are guides to the enforcer, not straightjackets. Every case is subject to the judges' discretion, not bound by precedent.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

*you all know what comes next...*

Lord Vader
Thinks to himself uh-huh, right, let me hear it.....

"My Lord, this sector is not your property by divine right. It is a trust given to you by the Emperor. Your noble title comes at a price. It obligates you to treat your charges fairly and according to the laws and customs that govern interaction between the Imperium and its member worlds. I shall be bringing charges of malfeasance against you in the Sector Court, and I shall also make sure the Emperor is apprised of your breach of faith."​

Lord Vader of the Sith
Has had about enough of this...
*FORCE CHOKE*

As I point out every time you bring up that old "The Imperium is a government of man, not of laws" catchphrase, the fact that the Imperium have courts and judges show beyond any dispute that the Imperium does have laws. So does the handful of Imperial laws and regulations quoted in various canonical sources. Chris Thrash has a whole list of them on his website. Go take a look if you don't believe me.

Hans

Lord Vader
Believes that when he explains to the Emperor why he had to Force Choke the living crap out of some yappy things in his way of fulfilling the Emperor's Wishes, he thinks His Majesty's Courts will ..by the wishes of His Imperial Majesty "Find in Favor of the Defendant, the Lord Vader of the Sith and adjudicate this Issue Closed."

He would also like to see this supposed Canonical List of Legislation, Edict, Warrants and Laws....

Edit: Lord Vader is pleased with Marquis Aramis for providing the asked for list and will not have to Force Choke the living crap out him. :devil: Thanks Aramis, was busy making funnies....

 

[rancke]

None of which establish a protocol of "Rule of Law"...
They establish that some laws exist.

I don't think "rule of law" and "rule of men" means what you think it means, but I could be wrong, because this post of yours makes it abundantly clear to me that I don't have the foggiest notion what you actually mean by it. That makes it rather hard for me to argue your point.

Rule by men does not preclude laws, but does subordinate enforcement and interpretation to the senior man present, and doesn't include the idea that one MUST enforce the extant written laws. He or she might be called on it later...

What seems to me to be the disconnect is that you appear to equate "rule of men" with "no accountability whatsoever for Imperial nobles". The Imperium does seem to embody the rule of man (singular) rather than the rule of law in that the Emperor is the fount of law. But that does not translate into a society where said emperor lets his dukes get away with flouting whatever laws he establishes. IIRC one of the few canonical texts we have on the subject of laws make the point that everyone, including Imperial nobles, are subject to the law. Which is one of the features the "rule of law" is lauded for.

Bottom line, "The Imperium is a rule of men" does not equal "The Imperial laws allows individual dukes to ignore the Emperor's laws".


Hans

 

[rancke]

Lord Vader
Thinks to himself uh-huh, right, let me hear it.....

Who is this Lord Vader you speak of? I do not think he has any business intruding into the OTU.

Really, Magnus, I don't think the Empire of Star Wars bears enough resemblance to the Imperium to give it any relevance at all.

Lord Vader of the Sith
Has had about enough of this...
*FORCE CHOKE*

And at the next meeting of the chiefs of the various Imperial intelligence organizations, they play poker to decide which of them is going to assassinate that psionic who has gotten so close to the Emperor. Probably controls him with his insidious mind powers!



Hans

 

[aramis]

No, the accountability is solely to ones superiors... and avoidance of the frankenstein effect. (enough screaming peasants with pitchforks...)

Take Norris and the Warrant; under rule of law, his own crew should have arrested him for even suggesting the attempt, and is committing a crime simply by not stopping him. Under rule of men, they had to wait to see if (1) he comes back with it and (2) if his boss choses to act on the evidence. The captain could easily arrest him if no warrant is brought back... and the evidence is there... but even then, Delphine could let him off the hook.

 

[aramis]

Lord Vader is some Darrian Psi-knight... he is, after all, in canon... (Supp 1&4)

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Congratulations, Good Citizen! *from INI*

Who is this Lord Vader you speak of? I do not think he has any business intruding into the OTU.

Really, Magnus, I don't think the Empire of Star Wars bears enough resemblance to the Imperium to give it any relevance at all.


And at the next meeting of the chiefs of the various Imperial intelligence organizations, they play poker to decide which of them is going to assassinate that psionic who has gotten so close to the Emperor. Probably controls him with his insidious mind powers!

Hans

Good so you understand then that we can't let him go any further....ummmm, you go first since you understand why the Suppression are still on the Books...

 

[rancke]

No, the accountability is solely to ones superiors... and avoidance of the frankenstein effect. (enough screaming peasants with pitchforks...)

As opposed to what? The accountability is to the Emperor's law, but what difference does it make as long as it's there?

Take Norris and the Warrant; under rule of law, his own crew should have arrested him for even suggesting the attempt, and is committing a crime simply by not stopping him. Under rule of men, they had to wait to see if (1) he comes back with it and (2) if his boss choses to act on the evidence. The captain could easily arrest him if no warrant is brought back... and the evidence is there... but even then, Delphine could let him off the hook.

"The quandary that faced Norris was that he was prohibited from going to the interdicted world of Algine without the express permission of the Emperor. The warrant, if it was there, would be permission to go there; if it wasn't there, he riked his career." [MC:16]​

If Strephon had issued Norris a warrant, Norris had the right, under the Imperial law known as Imperial Edict 97, to go to Algine. If Strephon had not isued a warrant, Norris did not have the right to go there. His problem was that he didn't know for sure. That has nothing to do with whether the law applied to Norris or not. It did. And the text expressly states that Norris, the man on the spot, did not have the authority to overrule the law that said he couldn't go to Algine. As I said before, I don't think you know what "rule of man" actually means, or at least not its ramifications.

If Norris had broken the law, Strephon could have removed him or he could have pardoned him. (Pardons, incidentally, are not solely a feature of the rule of man; they are found in the rule of law as well). I don't believe that Delphine would have the authority to pardon Norris. She is, after all, just the foremost of his peers, not his liege.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Good so you understand then that we can't let him go any further....ummmm, you go first since you understand why the Suppression are still on the Books...

"A good sniper with a psi shield should do it. I have just the man."

You do realize that we can go on one-upping each other forever, right? Neither of us are actually proving anything.


Hans

 

[spinwardpirate]

Right. And notice this is all taking place in a IMTU thread.
o:

 

[rancke]

Right. And notice this is all taking place in a IMTU thread.
o:

So it is. I hadn't thought about that. Obviously I should have. It's just that when people make sweeping statements about how THE Traveller Universe is, I automatically assume that they're talking about the Official Traveller Universe. After all, there's not much point in arguing about someone else's Traveller Universe, since by definition he is right. Unless he says something like "My universe is just like the OTU", in which case, we're back at the common ground that divides us.


Hans

 

[spinwardpirate]

Maybe we could all use more of that "hey, your Traveller Universe is pretty cool" slap on the back talk now and again, as a way of building each other up? We're all Travellers here. We should celebrate that fact.

 

[rancke]

Maybe we could all use more of that "hey, your Traveller Universe is pretty cool" slap on the back talk now and again, as a way of building each other up? We're all Travellers here. We should celebrate that fact.

Feel free to tell me how cool my Traveller Universe is any time the urge strikes you.


Hans

 

[sabredog]

Mine is so cool you get a free beer tap installed on the bridge of every qualified purchase of the new 2009 Free Trader. And no money down! With the routes over the Rift open now we are practically giving them away!*


(*OAC, limitations and registration fees may apply)

 

[rancke]

My Traveller Universe is so cool that the ambient temperature of space is 1.3 Kelvin.


Hans

 

[Maladominus]

Some countries on planet Earth accept it. Some worlds in the Imperium accept it. What more is there to say?

Avast, matey?

 

[kafka47]

Quote:
Hans, I know (or think I know), you like to think of the Imperium as a quasi-EU superstate...
What you think you know ain't so. I think of the Imperium as a quasi-Age of Sail European empire, only different.

No disrepect ever intended. For Your Traveller Universe is very cool indeed. I would welcome to find out more. However, we are limited by time and space...not to mention distance.

...however, it is nothing of the kind...it is more akin to EEC. Capital does exert influence but cannot really stop things from happening. It relies upon of cohesion of elite interests to make the whole thing work.
The only thing any single world needs to keep pirates at bay is a handful of SDBs. The Imperial and Ducal forces are just icing on the cake.

Ah, this is where you and I differ. Most worlds the SDBs would be only responsible for the 10 diameter limit which I have set aside as prime space for corporations and the like to ply. Furthermore, most worlds would only call upon their SDBs from regularly scheduled patrols in emergencies. Piracy, usually, by the time the distress call has been sent out...it is too late. Again, this is assuming the world has the neccessary TL to support the SDB fleet.

Perhaps, that begs the question...pirates one assumes would be armed up to near TL E capacities what match would they be for a lone world's SDB fleet?

Yes, there is the icing factor that you mention, however, I do not see them coming to the aid of common folks too much. Only when larger groups get affected.

And, when I think of pirates, I think of pirates operating as gangs which part of larger units like syndicates which are in turn part of a parallel structure of governance lurking in the shadows of the Imperium. Therefore, yes, the players may encounter a lone pirate ship doing a raid or similar mission but never underestimate that (s)he will have friends waiting.

 

[sabredog]

And, when I think of pirates, I think of pirates operating as gangs which part of larger units like syndicates which are in turn part of a parallel structure of governance lurking in the shadows of the Imperium. Therefore, yes, the players may encounter a lone pirate ship doing a raid or similar mission but never underestimate that (s)he will have friends waiting.

Exactly right. Given the mechanics of jump travel and the speed (or lack) of communication in the TU the pirates need several layers of operations and a sophisticated organization to be successful.

People on the ground to see what ships are loading up with what cargoes that would be worth taking. Ideally high value and low mass. Maximize the take so the risk is worth it. That's why pirates IMTU tend to have smaller cargo bays than you would expect - but more fuel and bigger M-drives.

People making connections, paying bribes, fencing the goods, getting repair parts (something worth hijacking in itself).

Multiple ships lurking out near the 100 diameter jump points that are waiting in a silent running mode for outbound shipping. They are close enough to eachother to help get the goods, but far enough apart that if the SBD's are on the way they can all run in different directions and reduce the chances of getting caught and losing all the booty. Maybe even a decoy ship to lure in a passing merchant with a false flag SOS...or the same to lure away and nearby SBD's.

Then the pirates need a base to repair and recreate. A Port Royale or Tortuga in space somewhere. This means infrastructure and that needs a cooperative effort among crews. Pirate kings and councils if you will.

IMTU I had read Piper's book Space Viking back in 77 when the game came out and that was my inspiration for how I run the majority of the pirates in IMTU. They raid the colonies outside the borders of the Terran Empire, sometimes make forays into Imperial space to hit heavy freighters carrying high tech goods and all, and while they don't all hot glue horns to their vacc suit helmets they have always been called Space Vikings no matter which particular gang they belong to.

Some of those far colony worlds have formed small mutual protection leagues to ward off the raids and this has provided many an adventure seed for my campaigns over the last 30 years. Once the players had their ship captured by vikings returning from a raid that went bad. The players were told they could "buy" their ship back by participating in some raids on the way home to the base world. They did well enough that not only did they get their ship back, but one of the players who lost a character in combat wanted to roll up a viking who decided to go "legit". This was before the Pirate Career so he was just rolled up as a Marine deserter.

 

[rancke]

The only thing any single world needs to keep pirates at bay is a handful of SDBs. The Imperial and Ducal forces are just icing on the cake.

Ah, this is where you and I differ. Most worlds the SDBs would be only responsible for the 10 diameter limit which I have set aside as prime space for corporations and the like to ply. Furthermore, most worlds would only call upon their SDBs from regularly scheduled patrols in emergencies. Piracy, usually, by the time the distress call has been sent out...it is too late. Again, this is assuming the world has the neccessary TL to support the SDB fleet.

I'm sorry, but I simply can't understand how a world that has any concern for its interstellar trade could possibly consider NOT patrolling out to the 100 diameter limit. It's where merchants arrive and depart, it's so close you can cover it with no more than a squadron of vessels, and while they're patrolling, they're also guarding the mainworld.

Perhaps, that begs the question...pirates one assumes would be armed up to near TL E capacities what match would they be for a lone world's SDB fleet?

That would depend on the tax base of the world. Again speaking about the OTU, planetary navies can procure ships from any world in its subsector (HG, one of the first pages). So if the world can afford it, it can have the most advanced ships available locally. If it has a Class A or B starport, it can maintain the ships itself, if not, the ships can jump to a nearby world with such a starport and get maintained there. It's far less of a problem than the pirates have getting their ships maintained (and especially repaired).

Yes, there is the icing factor that you mention, however, I do not see them coming to the aid of common folks too much. Only when larger groups get affected.

Why not? I mean, apart from the problem that it would interfere with the activities of pirates, what about the notion of a national navy caring for the common folks they are suppoed to protect is so strange?



Hans