DGP and all that

[etherflyer]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
]It's funny how that works, isn't it. People seem to expect answers, and get pissed off when they're not provided to the point of actively hating the individuals who keep quiet for whatever reason.

I don't actively hate Roger. I dislike him for the way he has treated me: soliciting new material for DGP, then suddenly ceasing to communicate when I mentioned that DGP still owed me for previous work.

Refusing to communicate with fans is one thing. Refusing to honour one's obligations is another.

 

[etherflyer]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
]It's funny how that works, isn't it. People seem to expect answers, and get pissed off when they're not provided to the point of actively hating the individuals who keep quiet for whatever reason.

I don't actively hate Roger. I dislike him for the way he has treated me: soliciting new material for DGP, then suddenly ceasing to communicate when I mentioned that DGP still owed me for previous work.

Refusing to communicate with fans is one thing. Refusing to honour one's obligations is another.

 

[etherflyer]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
]It's funny how that works, isn't it. People seem to expect answers, and get pissed off when they're not provided to the point of actively hating the individuals who keep quiet for whatever reason.

I don't actively hate Roger. I dislike him for the way he has treated me: soliciting new material for DGP, then suddenly ceasing to communicate when I mentioned that DGP still owed me for previous work.

Refusing to communicate with fans is one thing. Refusing to honour one's obligations is another.

 

[jfugatesr]

I have been doing some thinking lately about what I wouild do if I was Roger. He actually should have done this several years ago to prove he was serious, IMO.

1. Stand up a DGP web site.
These days, you can get a significant amount of web space for less than $10 a month. And there's nothing like a web site to give people the sense that you are really an entity that exists and is doing something. And Roger could probably find one of his buddies who could build a decent site for him.

2. Offer prior DGP products as a PDF for a price.
To get people interested in the site, Roger could offer things like the first couple issues of Traveller's Digest as free PDFs, and then offer the other PDFs for a charge through paypal. That would get income coming in for a fairly low outlay in cash.

3. With an income base established, finish AI and market it. Once this was done it could be offered over the web as a PDF, again using paypal. More income.

Even if all Roger did was scan the pages (he has copies of all the products) and put them up (no OCR, even) that's something. He's missing a great opportunity to generate income with this approach, and to make good with Traveller fans, and to introduce new gamers to the genre.

When I sold everything to Roger, I really cleaned house, so I don't even own copies of all the products any more.

In fact, if Roger wanted to, I bet he could work with the fans to get this done, kind of like an "open source" project, so he wouldn't even have to do much of the work. He could make one chapter from each product "free" so people could get a flavor for the product, and then ask for a paypal payment to get the whole PDF.

The internet changes everything. In my DGP days, we had to print the product. And printers didn't even want to talk to you unless you were talking at least a 1,000 copies. And we ususlly printed way more than that. The printing bill alone was generally 5,000 - 10,000 dollars.

Then you get your volume by selling to distributors, and you have to sell to them at a discount that more than half off the price. Then GDW, rightly so, takes a percentage of the cover price. By the time you were done, you had to sell thousands of copies of a product even to break even.

So the internet makes it possible to sell directly to the customer at near full price, and have a quite low overhead. And the customer could get an electronic copy to boot, which I think is more convenient than just a paper copy because you can search it, reprint out pages, etc.

If I were Roger, this is what I would do. You out there, Roger? You listening?

 

[jfugatesr]

I have been doing some thinking lately about what I wouild do if I was Roger. He actually should have done this several years ago to prove he was serious, IMO.

1. Stand up a DGP web site.
These days, you can get a significant amount of web space for less than $10 a month. And there's nothing like a web site to give people the sense that you are really an entity that exists and is doing something. And Roger could probably find one of his buddies who could build a decent site for him.

2. Offer prior DGP products as a PDF for a price.
To get people interested in the site, Roger could offer things like the first couple issues of Traveller's Digest as free PDFs, and then offer the other PDFs for a charge through paypal. That would get income coming in for a fairly low outlay in cash.

3. With an income base established, finish AI and market it. Once this was done it could be offered over the web as a PDF, again using paypal. More income.

Even if all Roger did was scan the pages (he has copies of all the products) and put them up (no OCR, even) that's something. He's missing a great opportunity to generate income with this approach, and to make good with Traveller fans, and to introduce new gamers to the genre.

When I sold everything to Roger, I really cleaned house, so I don't even own copies of all the products any more.

In fact, if Roger wanted to, I bet he could work with the fans to get this done, kind of like an "open source" project, so he wouldn't even have to do much of the work. He could make one chapter from each product "free" so people could get a flavor for the product, and then ask for a paypal payment to get the whole PDF.

The internet changes everything. In my DGP days, we had to print the product. And printers didn't even want to talk to you unless you were talking at least a 1,000 copies. And we ususlly printed way more than that. The printing bill alone was generally 5,000 - 10,000 dollars.

Then you get your volume by selling to distributors, and you have to sell to them at a discount that more than half off the price. Then GDW, rightly so, takes a percentage of the cover price. By the time you were done, you had to sell thousands of copies of a product even to break even.

So the internet makes it possible to sell directly to the customer at near full price, and have a quite low overhead. And the customer could get an electronic copy to boot, which I think is more convenient than just a paper copy because you can search it, reprint out pages, etc.

If I were Roger, this is what I would do. You out there, Roger? You listening?

 

[jfugatesr]

I have been doing some thinking lately about what I wouild do if I was Roger. He actually should have done this several years ago to prove he was serious, IMO.

1. Stand up a DGP web site.
These days, you can get a significant amount of web space for less than $10 a month. And there's nothing like a web site to give people the sense that you are really an entity that exists and is doing something. And Roger could probably find one of his buddies who could build a decent site for him.

2. Offer prior DGP products as a PDF for a price.
To get people interested in the site, Roger could offer things like the first couple issues of Traveller's Digest as free PDFs, and then offer the other PDFs for a charge through paypal. That would get income coming in for a fairly low outlay in cash.

3. With an income base established, finish AI and market it. Once this was done it could be offered over the web as a PDF, again using paypal. More income.

Even if all Roger did was scan the pages (he has copies of all the products) and put them up (no OCR, even) that's something. He's missing a great opportunity to generate income with this approach, and to make good with Traveller fans, and to introduce new gamers to the genre.

When I sold everything to Roger, I really cleaned house, so I don't even own copies of all the products any more.

In fact, if Roger wanted to, I bet he could work with the fans to get this done, kind of like an "open source" project, so he wouldn't even have to do much of the work. He could make one chapter from each product "free" so people could get a flavor for the product, and then ask for a paypal payment to get the whole PDF.

The internet changes everything. In my DGP days, we had to print the product. And printers didn't even want to talk to you unless you were talking at least a 1,000 copies. And we ususlly printed way more than that. The printing bill alone was generally 5,000 - 10,000 dollars.

Then you get your volume by selling to distributors, and you have to sell to them at a discount that more than half off the price. Then GDW, rightly so, takes a percentage of the cover price. By the time you were done, you had to sell thousands of copies of a product even to break even.

So the internet makes it possible to sell directly to the customer at near full price, and have a quite low overhead. And the customer could get an electronic copy to boot, which I think is more convenient than just a paper copy because you can search it, reprint out pages, etc.

If I were Roger, this is what I would do. You out there, Roger? You listening?

 

[Malenfant]

I'm surprised that he hasn't released DGP PDFs at Drivethrurpg. If we wants to make some money off what he's got, that'd be a good way to do it.

(Are you aware of DTRPG, Joe? It's a site that's distributing loads of old and new RPG PDF books. Check it out here:
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/catalog/index.php )

 

[Malenfant]

I'm surprised that he hasn't released DGP PDFs at Drivethrurpg. If we wants to make some money off what he's got, that'd be a good way to do it.

(Are you aware of DTRPG, Joe? It's a site that's distributing loads of old and new RPG PDF books. Check it out here:
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/catalog/index.php )

 

[Malenfant]

I'm surprised that he hasn't released DGP PDFs at Drivethrurpg. If we wants to make some money off what he's got, that'd be a good way to do it.

(Are you aware of DTRPG, Joe? It's a site that's distributing loads of old and new RPG PDF books. Check it out here:
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/catalog/index.php )

 

[daryen]

Well, don't forget that before Roger could try and sell any of the preexisting Traveller products, he would have to reach an agreement with Marc.

Apparently, that ain't happening anytime soon, based on what I have read here in previous times.

If Roger ever really wanted to do something, the best thing he could possibly do is sell the assets to an interested party. There are plenty of interested parties that would be willing to buy, too, just not at Roger's price. (To be fair, I don't know who's price is more unreasonable.)

But, back in reality, it is all apparently a moot point.

 

[daryen]

Well, don't forget that before Roger could try and sell any of the preexisting Traveller products, he would have to reach an agreement with Marc.

Apparently, that ain't happening anytime soon, based on what I have read here in previous times.

If Roger ever really wanted to do something, the best thing he could possibly do is sell the assets to an interested party. There are plenty of interested parties that would be willing to buy, too, just not at Roger's price. (To be fair, I don't know who's price is more unreasonable.)

But, back in reality, it is all apparently a moot point.

 

[daryen]

Well, don't forget that before Roger could try and sell any of the preexisting Traveller products, he would have to reach an agreement with Marc.

Apparently, that ain't happening anytime soon, based on what I have read here in previous times.

If Roger ever really wanted to do something, the best thing he could possibly do is sell the assets to an interested party. There are plenty of interested parties that would be willing to buy, too, just not at Roger's price. (To be fair, I don't know who's price is more unreasonable.)

But, back in reality, it is all apparently a moot point.

 

[jfugatesr]

Originally posted by daryen:
Well, don't forget that before Roger could try and sell any of the preexisting Traveller products, he would have to reach an agreement with Marc.

Apparently, that ain't happening anytime soon, based on what I have read here in previous times.

The one area where I think Roger can be too stubborn is in negotiations. I believe he has placed too high a value on DGP's material. It's nice stuff, but the Traveller universe does not revolve around it like Roger seems to believe.

I think his unrealistic expectations coupled with his inexperience in the gaming industry has made him a real pain to deal with.

Marc was always more than reasonable to deal with, and I can see Roger could get rather arrogant if he got too big for his britches, which sounds like may have happened. Regardless of how the Traveller fans may have felt about DGP, the company was always a little bittie fish in a big pond, and I never lost sight of that.

When I sold DGP to Roger, he discussed his hard-nosed negotiating philosophy and I told him he ought to soften his approach if he wanted to get anywhere with things. Sounds like most of my advice fell on deaf ears.

Roger could reach an agreement with Marc if he would realize DGP is not "hot stuff" like he wants to think. Perhaps "buying into" the business instead of earning your way like we did means he never got the horse sense he needed to understand what was and what was not reasonable in the gaming biz.

Our primary motivation at DGP was first and foremost a love for Traveller and the RPG industry. If we could make money doing that, then great. But for me, money was secondary to being fair and reasonable. I wouldn't sell the farm, mind you. It was always win-win.

I know Roger in one of his other pursuits would do Real Estate repos. That takes a tough negotiator to pull off well, but those situations are ususally win-lose. Where you reposess the property and make something off it (the win), while the poor in-debt person who lost the property is just plain the loser all around.

Win-lose negotiating is not the way to run a gaming business, however.

 

[jfugatesr]

Originally posted by daryen:
Well, don't forget that before Roger could try and sell any of the preexisting Traveller products, he would have to reach an agreement with Marc.

Apparently, that ain't happening anytime soon, based on what I have read here in previous times.

The one area where I think Roger can be too stubborn is in negotiations. I believe he has placed too high a value on DGP's material. It's nice stuff, but the Traveller universe does not revolve around it like Roger seems to believe.

I think his unrealistic expectations coupled with his inexperience in the gaming industry has made him a real pain to deal with.

Marc was always more than reasonable to deal with, and I can see Roger could get rather arrogant if he got too big for his britches, which sounds like may have happened. Regardless of how the Traveller fans may have felt about DGP, the company was always a little bittie fish in a big pond, and I never lost sight of that.

When I sold DGP to Roger, he discussed his hard-nosed negotiating philosophy and I told him he ought to soften his approach if he wanted to get anywhere with things. Sounds like most of my advice fell on deaf ears.

Roger could reach an agreement with Marc if he would realize DGP is not "hot stuff" like he wants to think. Perhaps "buying into" the business instead of earning your way like we did means he never got the horse sense he needed to understand what was and what was not reasonable in the gaming biz.

Our primary motivation at DGP was first and foremost a love for Traveller and the RPG industry. If we could make money doing that, then great. But for me, money was secondary to being fair and reasonable. I wouldn't sell the farm, mind you. It was always win-win.

I know Roger in one of his other pursuits would do Real Estate repos. That takes a tough negotiator to pull off well, but those situations are ususally win-lose. Where you reposess the property and make something off it (the win), while the poor in-debt person who lost the property is just plain the loser all around.

Win-lose negotiating is not the way to run a gaming business, however.

 

[jfugatesr]

Originally posted by daryen:
Well, don't forget that before Roger could try and sell any of the preexisting Traveller products, he would have to reach an agreement with Marc.

Apparently, that ain't happening anytime soon, based on what I have read here in previous times.

The one area where I think Roger can be too stubborn is in negotiations. I believe he has placed too high a value on DGP's material. It's nice stuff, but the Traveller universe does not revolve around it like Roger seems to believe.

I think his unrealistic expectations coupled with his inexperience in the gaming industry has made him a real pain to deal with.

Marc was always more than reasonable to deal with, and I can see Roger could get rather arrogant if he got too big for his britches, which sounds like may have happened. Regardless of how the Traveller fans may have felt about DGP, the company was always a little bittie fish in a big pond, and I never lost sight of that.

When I sold DGP to Roger, he discussed his hard-nosed negotiating philosophy and I told him he ought to soften his approach if he wanted to get anywhere with things. Sounds like most of my advice fell on deaf ears.

Roger could reach an agreement with Marc if he would realize DGP is not "hot stuff" like he wants to think. Perhaps "buying into" the business instead of earning your way like we did means he never got the horse sense he needed to understand what was and what was not reasonable in the gaming biz.

Our primary motivation at DGP was first and foremost a love for Traveller and the RPG industry. If we could make money doing that, then great. But for me, money was secondary to being fair and reasonable. I wouldn't sell the farm, mind you. It was always win-win.

I know Roger in one of his other pursuits would do Real Estate repos. That takes a tough negotiator to pull off well, but those situations are ususally win-lose. Where you reposess the property and make something off it (the win), while the poor in-debt person who lost the property is just plain the loser all around.

Win-lose negotiating is not the way to run a gaming business, however.

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by JoeFugate:
Win-lose negotiating is not the way to run a gaming business, however.

Particularly when dealing with Marc...


Hunter

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by JoeFugate:
Win-lose negotiating is not the way to run a gaming business, however.

Particularly when dealing with Marc...


Hunter

 

[hunter]

Originally posted by JoeFugate:
Win-lose negotiating is not the way to run a gaming business, however.

Particularly when dealing with Marc...


Hunter

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by hunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JoeFugate:
Win-lose negotiating is not the way to run a gaming business, however.

Particularly when dealing with Marc...
</font>[/QUOTE]Why would you know that, did you try that tactic at one point?

 

[Malenfant]

Originally posted by hunter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JoeFugate:
Win-lose negotiating is not the way to run a gaming business, however.

Particularly when dealing with Marc...
</font>[/QUOTE]Why would you know that, did you try that tactic at one point?