BCS Combat and Design

[pendragonman]

Mags, we ARE in the T5 ruleset part of the boards and officially no 3I extension has been offered for T5 BUT:

Only those being contrary push the rules for their personal TU in any area but the IMTU part of the forum.

Further, I believe Hans is correct with the 3I being the default generic TU of the boards as a whole, with the exception of the Mongoose portion of the boards where they have made it clear that they are making a setting-less ruleset, then offering several different setting for using those rules.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

I wasn't pushing nothing.

Mags, we ARE in the T5 ruleset part of the boards and officially no 3I extension has been offered for T5 BUT:

Only those being contrary push the rules for their personal TU in any area but the IMTU part of the forum.

Further, I believe Hans is correct with the 3I being the default generic TU of the boards as a whole, with the exception of the Mongoose portion of the boards where they have made it clear that they are making a setting-less ruleset, then offering several different setting for using those rules.

Uh, quick note here. I wasn't and still am not pushing my TU. Yeah, I am looking at using the rules for my TU, but I am/have been keeping my examples non-specific, neither my TU nor the OTU. I am treating this as a toolkit, just like I use all of T5, hell that is one of the things I like about T5 it makes a mighty fine toolkit. I didn't mention my TU till Hans went on assuming I was using the OTU only in examples. Go back and read what I have written please before you accuse me of me pushing anything but a set of rules which at this time do not even exist.

Yeah, I am thinking about how to use it my universe, but damn why wouldn't I?

Now as to this only the OTU is allowed outside a cage, again you might want to read more posts here, I see people talk about their TU as either completely non-OTU or some variant, so yeah, I don't walk about assuming OTU. (There is this cute US Army saying about that, but I am pretty sure the filter would black it out. ) Holy Space Cows, Batman! Back up, man.

Now, can we get back to talking about some rules? I was enjoying that actually, a lot more than the inquisition.

EDIT: Look, I am not gonna lie, I am a bit heated here. I don't like being accused of doing something I was not doing especially when the other party is here doesn't even have a base familiarity with the very rule set we are discussing and has mostly argued physics and literary forms. This would be a bit easier to take if both parties were on the same page, but one of doesn't even have the book. When I do the crime, I will do the time.

Sorry, but I really had to vent that. end of rant.

 

[rancke]

I didn't mention my TU till Hans went on assuming I was using the OTU only in examples.

That's the point. I had no way of knowing you weren't talking about the setting that is our common frame of reference, because you gave no hint that you were talking about something else.

Yeah, I am thinking about how to use it my universe, but damn why wouldn't I?

Absolutely no reason why you shouldn't.

Now as to this only the OTU is allowed outside a cage, again you might want to read more posts here, I see people talk about their TU as either completely non-OTU or some variant, so yeah, I don't walk about assuming OTU. (There is this cute US Army saying about that, but I am pretty sure the filter would black it out. ) Holy Space Cows, Batman! Back up, man.

I never said that only the OTU is allowed. I said that if one doesn't indicate that one is talking about something else, misunderstandings occur even more easily than when one does use the OTU. Go ahead and use any universe you want for your statements and arguments, but I'd appreciate it if you told me up front so that I can ignore you or join the discussion on the same page you're on.

Just think of all the posts we wouldn't have written if you had done that earlier.

Now, can we get back to talking about some rules? I was enjoying that actually, a lot more than the inquisition.

As far as I am concerned you are more than welcome. I certainly won't interfere any more now that I know you're not using the OTU for your examples.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

A question.

/ka-snip/


As far as I am concerned you are more than welcome. I certainly won't interfere any more now that I know you're not using the OTU for your examples.


Hans

The point is you keep missing is that I am not using any setting in my examples. None. You, Hans brought up settings. Me, I am talking pure rules only, setting is fluffy candy colors we apply later to our individual tastes.

Are we clear now?

 

[mike wightman]

T5 is written for the OTU.

Look at the map, the background etc. T5 is the OTU

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Arrrrghhhh.

T5 is written for the OTU.

Look at the map, the background etc. T5 is the OTU

Not quite. I mean I own the book, I have seen the cover and ya know, it says "Traveller5 Core Rules", it does not say "The Third Imperium Core Rules". I understand that it is a subtle distinction, but kind of important. Yes, it does use the OTU in its examples, but it also has a whole bunch of stuff that so far for the last 35 years of the game that are most def not OTU like the most cool fantastic drives like Hop and Skip, new dice mechanics like Flux, and Robot people. Dudes, seriously it can be used for any number of non-OTU universes and is what makes it cool. Why can't we treat the Rules as you know a collection of rules to play science fiction games that aren't the 3I?

I am going to go file, which I hate, but I think I need to go and take a breather before I get more infractions than I am possibly already getting.

 

[mike wightman]

Lol, you are preaching to the converted, I have always considered the CT rules and setting as distinct.

MT, TNE and T4 on the other hand are tied in to their relative settings.

That said T5 goes out of its way to mention how it ties in with previous versions of the setting rather than the rules, and then you have the Galaxiad...

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

I have enhanced my calm...I hope.

Lol, you are preaching to the converted, I have always considered the CT rules and setting as distinct.

MT, TNE and T4 on the other hand are tied in to their relative settings.

That said T5 goes out of its way to mention how it ties in with previous versions of the setting rather than the rules, and then you have the Galaxiad...

Well, I will half grant you that, but mostly since I ate the MT Imperial Encyclopedia like it was filet minon, love that Emperors List. That said even then I used the rules as more of a tool kit to make stuff same with T4. Can't speak for TNE since the only reason I have it is the PDF came with my T5 Jump Drive.

I don't have the Galaxiad, just yet.

 

[rancke]

The point is you keep missing is that I am not using any setting in my examples. None. You, Hans brought up settings. Me, I am talking pure rules only, setting is fluffy candy colors we apply later to our individual tastes.

In that case there's not enough information to answer your question. I would have to make assumptions that might not fit with your preconceptions. You might be assuming that all your ships can arrive simultaneously. You might be assuming that you can observe the target world as you approach and break off the attack if it has been reinforced.

Given the right assumptions there is no reason why you should give the enemy more time to respond to your invasion.


Hans

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

It was rhetorical.

In that case there's not enough information to answer your question. I would have to make assumptions that might not fit with your preconceptions. You might be assuming that all your ships can arrive simultaneously. You might be assuming that you can observe the target world as you approach and break off the attack if it has been reinforced.

Given the right assumptions there is no reason why you should give the enemy more time to respond to your invasion.


Hans

Never expected an answer to what is at its heart a rhetorical question in an hypthetical situation proposed merely to show that is more than one doctrine.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Back on topic with a (hopefully very short detour).

I totally agree Hans, jumping in at the 100D = death as your forces can't concentrate fast enough - but it does give time for Jump Capable ships to get away which the 100D jump does not. Jumping to a place that is jump masked and then move in cohort form to surround the target planet. You are correct it is between 168+/- 5 (if they have naval precision for jump) hours to come out of jump (pg 181 BBB(unless the engineer has arcane skill - then 150 hours)

The defenders have little choice if their strength is significantly less than the attackers. They must attempt escape if they believe that the world they are defending will not be bombed to ashes... The escaping ships that might have fled into jump have the fleet move over their jump line enmass - creating a Jump Line occlusion in which the escaping ships pop back to where they were occluded in the 168 +/- 5 hours.... and slaughtered in single groups by your waiting fleet.

Attacker has the time to do this if
1) they are not detected immediately and the reaction for can't concentrate fast enough - that is can enough defenders are concentrated to attack the initial arrival within 5 hours to avoid the bulk of the fleet, if not then arrival will be unopposed.
2) they significantly outnumber the defenders so that the defenders run and if they have sufficient tonnage available to occlude the jump line
3) the succeed on occluding the escape jump lines in time, which must be done within the 163 hours to catch entire scattering fleet, so max distance from the attacker jump in or detection (which ever is less) and the enemy jump out must be < 163 hours of travel time

If Defender significantly understrength vs Attack
defenders options in this case is to realize some ships are dead as they will be caught- scatter on multiples of vectors to a prearranged after jump meetup. Scatter and Jump mask to make the jump line occlusion calculation hard .

If Defender = Attacker
Fight

If Defender significantly Overstrength of Attack
role reversal - attacker will try to evade and run

Strength is not just tonnage -Weapons Mounts, TL differences, emplaced Defences.... all play a role.

The detour first. In my hypothetical situation as I thought I noted earlier, it could be that I am just there long enough to drop butt-tons of ordnance on your world and then bug out, not even waiting to see if said ordanance hits, pure pysch-ops.

And then back to the main route.

Thanks for the reminder about Jump Masking and Occlusion, I had forgot to factor them in, but they are now Canon in T5 and I am wondering if we are keeping it for BCS. Me, I am in favor of keeping them for BCS, but I wonder what Rob and Pendragonman have to say about them, especially since Rob hates bookkeeping and that seems like it might qualify. And of course, others too.

So, comments?

 

[Ulsyus]

Lol, you are preaching to the converted, I have always considered the CT rules and setting as distinct.

MT, TNE and T4 on the other hand are tied in to their relative settings.

That said T5 goes out of its way to mention how it ties in with previous versions of the setting rather than the rules, and then you have the Galaxiad...

Setting material would be good for players and refs who purchase that Questing Beast of T5 produts - the Players Book. Otherwise the old crusty crowd have several iterations worth or background supplements to use.

The detour first. In my hypothetical situation as I thought I noted earlier, it could be that I am just there long enough to drop butt-tons of ordnance on your world and then bug out, not even waiting to see if said ordanance hits, pure pysch-ops.

To avoid Crimes Against Humaniti charges and keep it to the psy-ops realm the ordnance package would have to be big enough to be damn scary but small enough to be able to be stopped with the resources available in the system. This'd be a big planning workup well before the mission forces were task assigned...

Thanks for the reminder about Jump Masking and Occlusion, I had forgot to factor them in, but they are now Canon in T5 and I am wondering if we are keeping it for BCS. Me, I am in favor of keeping them for BCS

That sort of stuff is at the grand-tactical move level, which is outside the domain we've seen in most games previously. That sort of stuff is done using mechanics supplied in the RPGs, but let out of HG and BR - or have I missed something?

Don't get me wrong, they'd be excellent elements to include in a game, because then you'd be playing the set-up to the battle, and not just the encounter itself. Sort of like using a table top counter-game to manoeuvre forces before using miniatures to fight the battle when decisively engaged!

 

[Ulsyus]

Building the HG spreadsheet is being terribly delayed by impediments such as work, kids, and the house. Bah!

Has anyone tried to do a conversion of the T5 ACS to BR-type stats? I love the BR rule that basically ignores hits that aren't criticals. That has got to be the best big-ship mechanic I've seen. That's also why I ditched Full Thrust/Power Projection as a set of BCS rules - zillions of little hull boxes for each vessel, it became a book-keeping exercise instead of a game with pace and tempo.

So, ACS to BR anyone?

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

A boring title.

Setting material would be good for players and refs who purchase that Questing Beast of T5 produts - the Players Book. Otherwise the old crusty crowd have several iterations worth or background supplements to use.

Agreed.

To avoid Crimes Against Humaniti charges and keep it to the psy-ops realm the ordnance package would have to be big enough to be damn scary but small enough to be able to be stopped with the resources available in the system. This'd be a big planning workup well before the mission forces were task assigned...

Well, that would the OTU response. Could be a TU where such rules are enforced, or it could be a TU where there are no such rules and I just want scrub the surface, or one where they give only lip service to such laws, or one where The Sovereign is punishing a rebel world and gives absolutely zero f***s what anyone has to say about it. Hell, that this happened in the OTU keeps trying present itself as a valid memory. Like I said it is more about not being tied to a doctrine of marshaling at the gas giant and then heading to the target world and less about laws and responses.

That sort of stuff is at the grand-tactical move level, which is outside the domain we've seen in most games previously. That sort of stuff is done using mechanics supplied in the RPGs, but let out of HG and BR - or have I missed something?

Don't get me wrong, they'd be excellent elements to include in a game, because then you'd be playing the set-up to the battle, and not just the encounter itself. Sort of like using a table top counter-game to manoeuvre forces before using miniatures to fight the battle when decisively engaged!

Totally second that entire last paragraph, which is why I am asking for input. Looks like the current vote count is For 2, Against 0, we are totally winning!

 

[David Johansen]

Actually, I was thinking the other day that a cold plasma field might work for stealth in space. It would be dome shaped and black on the forward convex side and reflective on the concave back side so the heat of the vessel would be reflected back from the field. I'm not sure if cold plasma could function at a low enough temperature to not have its own heat signature but it might reduce the signature of the ship below detection alert thresholds across a ninety degree arc.

In a science fiction setting I'm working on one culture uses robots the size of a grain of sand on the surface of their ships to alter the deflection angle of light and radio waves that intersect it to produce a smaller sensor silhouette and have generally more efficient systems that let them get by with smaller reactors and thus present a smaller sensor signature than their ships normally would.

You should be able to mask your heat signature by coming from the direction of the sun as long as you can keep the deflection angle for sensors down. But of course, a couple deep space monitoring stations or scout ships can prevent that though it's harder to maintain those in a lower tech setting.

Traveller is first and foremost about cheap and easy space travel. Faster than light drives, anti-gravity, and reactionless (or ridiculously efficient) maneuver drives are developed shortly after what we would consider modern times. We're talking about warfare under those conditions. Traveller space combat has often been portrayed as being much like sub hunting and I think that's a neat way of looking at things.

Given the established technological paradigms we're looking at I'd like to suggest that Traveller's super-dense hulls make stealth possible because they're super-nonconductive. Furthermore, the power systems in use are extremely efficient to the extent that there is no waste heat. Where does the energy go? I'd argue the reactionless maneuver drive is a bigger power hog than the rules suggest and that the energy is transformed into a gravitic wavelength. This would suggest that there is a increase in stealthiness as the tech level rises followed by a fall as gravitic sensors become more effective.

Actually, I've got one setting I did a write-up for where the over-use of gravitic drives accelerated the collapse of the universe that somewhat paralleled the issues of global warming.

When it comes to movement, I'm a big believer in vectors. What about plotted Cartesian vectors for battle groups?

 

[aramis]

Given that the plasma state is generally well above 1000°K... yeah, it will have it's own IR signature - low amplitude, high frequency. The ship inside is likely to be a brighter IR source, but at a lower frequency. Think a bright red dot in a dim yellow field.

That said, some plasmas can be down to 0°K... but they won't stay there long. If you're anywhere near an inhabited world, a plasma will absorb to about 100-250°K from the star.

 

[Ulsyus]

Well, that would the OTU response. Could be a TU where such rules are enforced, or it could be a TU where there are no such rules and I just want scrub the surface, or one where they give only lip service to such laws, or one where The Sovereign is punishing a rebel world and gives absolutely zero f***s what anyone has to say about it. Hell, that this happened in the OTU keeps trying present itself as a valid memory. Like I said it is more about not being tied to a doctrine of marshaling at the gas giant and then heading to the target world and less about laws and responses.

But any system that is built using rational actors would be cautious of mass-murder or genocide. Once that course of action is undertaken it's difficult to step back from it. Maybe some of those crazy K'kree who invaded 3I space, or the K'kree before the Hivers forced them to stare down the barrel of cultural genocide. The problem is if you're unstable enough to nuke a world of enemies, when will you be unstable enough to see enemies around you, at which point no-one's safe. Then things go to hell in a handcart faster and faster.

Back to starships.

The gas-giant is a great RV because if all vessels have enough fuel for a jump, then even if they're within the stellar jump limit the can still do so if extraction from battle can't be achieved any other way. Simulating this in a wargame requires those two levels of play.

This sort of game wouldn't require masses of counters, and possibly not even a map of a system. Bodies that forces would concentrate or near, distances between orbits, plus orbital and gravitational effect that would influence travel times, this would be enough to track position and travel, leaving the tactical side of things to the game we've been talking about.

 

[David Johansen]

The reason I went with a cold plasma field, like the ones in a television is that I figure a similar membrane would be too vulnerable to damage where, micrometeors and the like would just pass through the plasma. Some kind of liquid perhaps?

 

[aramis]

The reason I went with a cold plasma field, like the ones in a television is that I figure a similar membrane would be too vulnerable to damage where, micrometeors and the like would just pass through the plasma. Some kind of liquid perhaps?

It will still hit thermodynamic queilibrium at 100°K to 250°K if one is near the ecosphere.

 

[robject]

[...] especially since Rob hates bookkeeping [...]

That's right, Craig, just keep poking me. :toast: