TNE shows that it doesn't. So does T4. Both of which require radiators. And T4 has radiators and gravitic drives.
BCS Combat and Design
- Thread starter Ulsyus
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TNE shows that it doesn't. So does T4. Both of which require radiators. And T4 has radiators and gravitic drives.
pendragonman
Absent Friends Margrave
And T5 takes TL into the 20's.
So since it wasn't around for Virus and subsequent Dark Age and whatever T4 used it will never happen? You argument does not hold water.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
TNE was a deliberate shift in the drive technology paradigm back to the reaction mass model that was implied by original LBB2 and HG1 - shame it is/was physically impossible but never mind =)
CT81, HG2, MT, MgT, GT, GT ISW all use some sort of reaction less drive hand wave for manoeuvre that varies from edition to edition - none of them make any mention of heat sinks or radiators.
The idea that waste heat is actually bled off as part of the manoeuvre drive/acceleration compensators/artificial gravity is yet another magi-tech hand wave but it does offer an explanation of where all the waste heat from a multi gigawatt fusion plant disappears to.
CT81, HG2, MT, MgT, GT, GT ISW all use some sort of reaction less drive hand wave for manoeuvre that varies from edition to edition - none of them make any mention of heat sinks or radiators.
The idea that waste heat is actually bled off as part of the manoeuvre drive/acceleration compensators/artificial gravity is yet another magi-tech hand wave but it does offer an explanation of where all the waste heat from a multi gigawatt fusion plant disappears to.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Anyway back on topic.
There are the choices for a movement system as I see them:
totally abstract - HG2
abstract range band - similar to HG2 but with more range bands and more manoeuvre options based on manoeuvre points or some such
abstract square/hex - move a number of squares or hexes equal to manoeuvre points etc.
newtonian abstract range band - you maintain the number of range bands being moved just like a vector
newtonian abstract square/hex - move a number of squares/hexes in a straight line, spend manoeuvre points for heading changes
vector movement.
The type of manoeuvre system you employ may vary based on the scale of the battle - if it is fleet vs fleet manoeuvring around a system then abstract.
Maneuvering squadrons during an engagement abstract newtonian
For ship to ship vector.
Thought, comments, additions, preferences etc...
There are the choices for a movement system as I see them:
totally abstract - HG2
abstract range band - similar to HG2 but with more range bands and more manoeuvre options based on manoeuvre points or some such
abstract square/hex - move a number of squares or hexes equal to manoeuvre points etc.
newtonian abstract range band - you maintain the number of range bands being moved just like a vector
newtonian abstract square/hex - move a number of squares/hexes in a straight line, spend manoeuvre points for heading changes
vector movement.
The type of manoeuvre system you employ may vary based on the scale of the battle - if it is fleet vs fleet manoeuvring around a system then abstract.
Maneuvering squadrons during an engagement abstract newtonian
For ship to ship vector.
Thought, comments, additions, preferences etc...
Ah, yeah, the Topic, I remember that.
My votes below.
Gak, hate! Is boring and lame.
Less lame, but still dull.
May not be realistic, but looks to be fun.
Not even sure I get this one, so nope.
Second best, but foresee a lot of moving off the battle mat.
Realistic, so cool, but less fun and a whole lot of moving the minis/counters off the mat.
I disagree with this last thought, a proper battle system should be scalar and work with fleets, squadrons and individual ships. Having a single combat systems for a single battle space (in this case actual space) is better than a bunch of systems for the same space. I should be able to fight a fleet, which can then break off into a couple of squadrons and then concentrate on the players in their individual ships. Yeah, I don't want much, just perfection, as I said I am high maintance.
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Tracking the vector movement of a fleet moving from jump point around a gas giant to an encounter at the main world could take hours of needless vector movement - the fleet movement to engagement can be more abstract.
Once battle is joined then you can roll out your vector movement or whichever system
Once battle is joined then you can roll out your vector movement or whichever system
Uhhhh...
Second, for those that are coming in from the GG to the Mainworld there is no need to mat that. Describe and make some rolls for target/detection, but actually mat it seems well, umm, sorta silly and a waste of time. Minis/counters only go on the mat when the Native or Intruder engages.
The battle system is for battle, not travel, so no need for a mat till one side or both can see/target the other.
First off, that assumes you Jump into the system at the gas giant and not at the target (usually the Mainworld) world, which is sort of blowing a day or at least hours that could be better spent bombing the crap out of the target world and dropping my Assualt Troops. Me, I am Jumping in at the 100D limit of your Mainworld and commencing battle. Why give my enemy more time to respond to my invasion? But fuel you say? That is what tenders and shuttles are for. As long as there is water or ice on the Mainworld I got fuel. Also, I am in favor of designing warships with enough tankage to make at least one emergency Jump-1.
Second, for those that are coming in from the GG to the Mainworld there is no need to mat that. Describe and make some rolls for target/detection, but actually mat it seems well, umm, sorta silly and a waste of time. Minis/counters only go on the mat when the Native or Intruder engages.
The battle system is for battle, not travel, so no need for a mat till one side or both can see/target the other.
You're missing a potential opportunity here. A set of system level movement rules could be a significant addition.
Even something as simple and abstract as Star Viking's tile system would work:
http://www.projectrho.com/game/starviking.html
Even something as simple and abstract as Star Viking's tile system would work:
http://www.projectrho.com/game/starviking.html
Bah!
Second if I am going to play system movement then I just change the scale of the hexes on the mat, much simpler. And better looking.
In reverse order. Starviking, bleech! That is one hideous looking game tile.
Second if I am going to play system movement then I just change the scale of the hexes on the mat, much simpler. And better looking.
Well, if you jump in within shooting range of the enemy, the enemy is within shooting range of you. That gives him several hours to shoot up your vanguard (if I may use the term a little loosely to mean the ships that jump variation causes to arrive first). By the time your last ship arrives, a portion of your fleet has been destroyed for much less than an equitable number of enemy ships. Secondly, your intelligence about system defenses is two weeks old. If the enemy happens to have been reinforced, you might want an opportunity to reconsider and bug the **** out before they can clobber you.
The third problem you've dealt with by making sure your ships don't arrive dry.
Hans
That is why they call it gambling!
Another play is to sit in the Asteriod belt (if there is one) and lob rail gun accelerated rocks at your world and defenses.
Well, that Jump variance depends on the rule set, CommCasters (which only a fool doesn't install on their navy ships) takes a lot of that variance away as does a trained crew and tuned engines. Yep, some of them are going to die, it is war, that is what it does kills and destroys. And as you noted there is always the option to bug the hell out. As well, it could be I just want to come in and drop death from above on your world and then leave. Hit and run is a valid play.
Another play is to sit in the Asteriod belt (if there is one) and lob rail gun accelerated rocks at your world and defenses.
Luckily, you couldn't use it anyway. You would need something that could be configured for any system rather than generating an entire set of tiles for something like the Spinward Marches. It's the idea, rather than the artwork. In-system operations are handled in a semi-abstract way that doesn't take too much time (or table space) away from tactical battles.
Second if I am going to play system movement then I just change the scale of the hexes on the mat, much simpler. And better looking.
Which is what I do as well. Thing is, a lot of players are going to blanch at having two maps.
And running a full up system map leads down the slippery slope to something like Starfire: Empires.
Two maps?
Why would there be two maps? I meant use one mat and use Scale A (say 3 million Km/hex) for system travel and then switch to Scale B (30,000 Km/hex) once engagement begins. I don't see a need for any more than one mat using that method.
Why would there be two maps? I meant use one mat and use Scale A (say 3 million Km/hex) for system travel and then switch to Scale B (30,000 Km/hex) once engagement begins. I don't see a need for any more than one mat using that method.
I'm not familiar with T5 equipment and combat rules, so I was speaking in general (Third Imperium setting) terms. If the rules you use give a jump variance of 10% of the standard +/- 17 hours (which is what I was assuming) you're giving the enemy several free shots at your vanguard (+/- 1.7 hours = +/- 5 combat rounds (assuming 20 minute combat rounds)). If the variance is less than that, we're not talking OTU as far as I am concerned.
Hans
Ah, yes, your adherence to the OTU.
Well, see that is the problem there. I wasn't talking OTU, but GTU (Generic Traveller Universe) and/or my ATU. And me, I don't skimp on the forces, if I am making war on your world then I am coming with overwhelming forces. To paraphrase a movie line, you're gonna fight in the shade. :devil:
If you have ships at more than one location in a system; ships at a planet and SDB's at a gas giant for example or if you have more than one possible target in a system or multiple gas giants then you would need to keep track of what ships are where. A simple way to do this is by having a system map.
Yes, that is the problem, since I believe that the OTU is the default on these boards (except in IMTU, of course). And since you didn't specify differently, that's what I assumed. But go right ahead and talk about your TU.
(Although...? Just what makes the OTU not the GTU? And should we all be expected to automatically know the differences between the two? Is it a T5 thing?)
Hans
Yea, multiquote!
I only figure OTU when folks specify they are talking OTU (you being the exception, I think I would have a heart attack if you said anything other than OTU). As to what makes the Official Traveller Universe is that it is the GDW/Imperium Games/FFE Third Imperium. A Generic TU is any other TU that uses Traveller rules, but not setting, kinda thought it was self explanatory, but I guess I was wrong. My bad.
And for the most part in this discussion I have been using a GTU since that encompasses all the various TUs folks have, as well as the OTU since I still dig it too, but I have left the Canonista faith. :devil:
Now as to the five hours of getting my vanguard mashed on, well, they probably aren't leaving the fight without getting in a few licks of their own. Plus, I do actually have several tactical plans in my pocket, I just used the Mainworld strike as an example. There are times to split my fleet and do other things, but a good space admiral never reveals all his tricks, and I am trying to be a good space admiral. Also, logistics wins wars so that is my main concern having a enough goodies to win, which is why I don't start the war till I think I am going to win it. Frankly, in the OTU as the Imperial that is a done deal anyway, I have the larger, more prosperous and higher TL empire at my back. It is only a matter of time, but I am going to win, history shows that to be true, so hold out Rhylanor I shall return!
Ouch, good point, I will concede that one. Dangit.
No, Hans, that is your default.
I only figure OTU when folks specify they are talking OTU (you being the exception, I think I would have a heart attack if you said anything other than OTU). As to what makes the Official Traveller Universe is that it is the GDW/Imperium Games/FFE Third Imperium. A Generic TU is any other TU that uses Traveller rules, but not setting, kinda thought it was self explanatory, but I guess I was wrong. My bad.And for the most part in this discussion I have been using a GTU since that encompasses all the various TUs folks have, as well as the OTU since I still dig it too, but I have left the Canonista faith. :devil:
Now as to the five hours of getting my vanguard mashed on, well, they probably aren't leaving the fight without getting in a few licks of their own. Plus, I do actually have several tactical plans in my pocket, I just used the Mainworld strike as an example. There are times to split my fleet and do other things, but a good space admiral never reveals all his tricks, and I am trying to be a good space admiral. Also, logistics wins wars so that is my main concern having a enough goodies to win, which is why I don't start the war till I think I am going to win it. Frankly, in the OTU as the Imperial that is a done deal anyway, I have the larger, more prosperous and higher TL empire at my back. It is only a matter of time, but I am going to win, history shows that to be true, so hold out Rhylanor I shall return!
Have you considered why there is a board specifically for people's alternate Traveller universes? Me, I think it's because the default universe on the other boards is the one we all share, not a thousand different ones that we don't share. How do you expect people to know what rules apply to the universe you're talking about if you don't talk about one that they know? And how do you expect people to know that you're not talking about our shared universe if you don't tell them?No, Hans, that is your default.
Well, I don't expect people to know the differences between MTU and the OTU, nor do I expect them to automatically assume that I'm talking about something they might very well not care two centicreds about. When I talk about my Trojan Reach, I feel compelled by common courtesy to explain that it has a minor human race called the Troiani who had an empire that spanned most of the sector and that the Glorious Empire and the Freedom League (alingment code 'fl') are remnants of it and so on and so forth. So I generally don't bother. Instead I talk about the Trojan Reach of the OTU, ensuring that people have a decent chance of knowing what the blazes I'm talking about.
Indeed. There are thousands of generic TUs that use Traveller rules. I'm willing to bet that very few of them use the same Traveller rules, though.
I didn't say they wouldn't get off a shot each. The very first ones to arrive might even get off two. I said they would be lost for comparatively little gain.
Hans
Ackehece
SOC-13
I totally agree Hans, jumping in at the 100D = death as your forces can't concentrate fast enough - but it does give time for Jump Capable ships to get away which the 100D jump does not. Jumping to a place that is jump masked and then move in cohort form to surround the target planet. You are correct it is between 168+/- 5 (if they have naval precision for jump) hours to come out of jump (pg 181 BBB(unless the engineer has arcane skill - then 150 hours)
The defenders have little choice if their strength is significantly less than the attackers. They must attempt escape if they believe that the world they are defending will not be bombed to ashes... The escaping ships that might have fled into jump have the fleet move over their jump line enmass - creating a Jump Line occlusion in which the escaping ships pop back to where they were occluded in the 168 +/- 5 hours.... and slaughtered in single groups by your waiting fleet.
Attacker has the time to do this if
1) they are not detected immediately and the reaction for can't concentrate fast enough - that is can enough defenders are concentrated to attack the initial arrival within 5 hours to avoid the bulk of the fleet, if not then arrival will be unopposed.
2) they significantly outnumber the defenders so that the defenders run and if they have sufficient tonnage available to occlude the jump line
3) the succeed on occluding the escape jump lines in time, which must be done within the 163 hours to catch entire scattering fleet, so max distance from the attacker jump in or detection (which ever is less) and the enemy jump out must be < 163 hours of travel time
If Defender significantly understrength vs Attack
defenders options in this case is to realize some ships are dead as they will be caught- scatter on multiples of vectors to a prearranged after jump meetup. Scatter and Jump mask to make the jump line occlusion calculation hard .
If Defender = Attacker
Fight
If Defender significantly Overstrength of Attack
role reversal - attacker will try to evade and run
Strength is not just tonnage -Weapons Mounts, TL differences, emplaced Defences.... all play a role.
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