BCS Combat and Design

[pendragonman]

As to the 3d v. 2D we could add height sticks. :devil:

Flashbacks of Mustangs and Messerschmidts...

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Is that good or bad?

Flashbacks of Mustangs and Messerschmidts...

Well there is another game I have not heard of or played, is it cool? Me, I just saw a WWI airplane game that had them in a con photo.

Now, if only we could covert BCS into Ace of Aces now that would be the most awesome...where to get a couple of space cruisers?

 

[pendragonman]

M&M is AWESOME!!!

Unfortunately, it requires you to know someone with carpentry skills, and everyone to have a model of their craft, preferably of the same scale (we typically used Revel models for consistency)

Oh, and you need a gymnasium. Requires a ton of space to move around.

This is what the stands look like: http://boardgamegeek.com/image/492774/mustangs-and-messerschmitts

There are other pics here of gameplay

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Cool.

M&M is AWESOME!!!

Unfortunately, it requires you to know someone with carpentry skills, and everyone to have a model of their craft, preferably of the same scale (we typically used Revel models for consistency)

Oh, and you need a gymnasium. Requires a ton of space to move around.

This is what the stands look like: http://boardgamegeek.com/image/492774/mustangs-and-messerschmitts

There are other pics here of gameplay

Yeah, that sounds familiar, Harpoon has mad need for space to play too. We played in an empty lounge in the UWM Math & Science building.

So, we're cool with height sticks? Kidding...mostly.

 

[aramis]

And in the Far Future they will not have found a way to mask it, to directionally vent it or otherwise disperse it so that it cannot be detected. Yep, the Far Future will not be any better at hiding IR radiation than we are now. Since the Future will be no better at it than now, why bother?

Really? Someone clever won't invent a technology to mask this? Really?

Same thinking going on here as in the forties when they thought no one will ever be able to hide their plane or ship from Radar. No submarine will be able to hide from Sonar. And yet, here we are. Low radar cross section planes that are easily mistaken for birds on radar and ships with such low radar cross sections that they are virtually invisible on the scope, anechoic coatings that absorb Sonar and not reflect it back making subs virtually invisible.

No current physics allows for cicumvention of your basic blackbody radiation. If the half facing in isn't at 3°K, it soon will be. And to do that, you need to take the average inboard temps, and dump them out the back through radiators.

That radiator process also means you're lighting up your exhaust and the space dust behind you. You STILL generate a glow, only now it's a diffuse 2500°K one, and not a 1000°K one (your radiators). And you have to have much better radiators, and note the excess: that's because you have extra energy dump due to having to pump heat around to keep the front shell at 3°K.

In short, Thermodynamics says there is no way to truly mask your heat signature. Cannot be done without violating the laws of physics as we know them now. It takes you well out of Sci-Fi and into Space Fantasy.

 

[rancke]

And in the Far Future they will not have found a way to mask it, to directionally vent it or otherwise disperse it so that it cannot be detected. Yep, the Far Future will not be any better at hiding IR radiation than we are now. Since the Future will be no better at it than now, why bother?

You'll have to take that up with the Traveller writers. They're the ones that didn't include stealth fields and subspace heat sinks in or below TL15.


Hans

 

[rancke]

In short, Thermodynamics says there is no way to truly mask your heat signature. Cannot be done without violating the laws of physics as we know them now. It takes you well out of Sci-Fi and into Space Fantasy.

I can't agree with that. It's no more non-Sci-Fi than FLT drives. But it does take us out of Official Traveller Territory, a subset of Sci-Fi that doesn't include stealth fields.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I can't agree with that. It's no more non-Sci-Fi than FLT drives. But it does take us out of Official Traveller Territory, a subset of Sci-Fi that doesn't include stealth fields.


Hans

Actually, FTL of certain types fits well within current physics. THe energy requirements make them implausible, but NASA actually is working on them, because the physics says it's doable.

 

[rancke]

Actually, FTL of certain types fits well within current physics. THe energy requirements make them implausible, but NASA actually is working on them, because the physics says it's doable.

Not really relevant. Your claim that if it's not theoretically possible, it's science fantasy is just plain wrong. If it has science fiction tropes only it is science fiction; if it has fantasy tropes only, it's fantasy; and if it has both science fiction and fantasy tropes, it's science fantasy. There are certainly plenty of FLT drives in SF books that are not possible.


Hans

 

[aramis]

Not really relevant. Your claim that if it's not theoretically possible, it's science fantasy is just plain wrong. If it has science fiction tropes only it is science fiction; if it has fantasy tropes only, it's fantasy; and if it has both science fiction and fantasy tropes, it's science fantasy. There are certainly plenty of FLT drives in SF books that are not possible.


Hans

Science fiction is a subset of fantasy, according to the MLA and ALA.

 

[rancke]

Science fiction is a subset of fantasy, according to the MLA and ALA.

I don't know what the MLA and the ALA are, but they seem to have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick. The distinction between fantasy and science fiction is an old and well-established one.


Hans

 

[aramis]

I don't know what the MLA and the ALA are, but they seem to have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick. The distinction between fantasy and science fiction is an old and well-established one.


Hans

Modern Language Association and American Library Association. The bodies which define American Standard English and literary genres.

 

[rancke]

Modern Language Association and American Library Association. The bodies which define American Standard English and literary genres.

Looks like they made a mistake then.

(America has an institution with the authority to define literary genres?!? You learn something new every day...)


Hans

 

[pendragonman]

No current physics allows for cicumvention of your basic blackbody radiation. If the half facing in isn't at 3°K, it soon will be. And to do that, you need to take the average inboard temps, and dump them out the back through radiators.

That radiator process also means you're lighting up your exhaust and the space dust behind you. You STILL generate a glow, only now it's a diffuse 2500°K one, and not a 1000°K one (your radiators). And you have to have much better radiators, and note the excess: that's because you have extra energy dump due to having to pump heat around to keep the front shell at 3°K.

In short, Thermodynamics says there is no way to truly mask your heat signature. Cannot be done without violating the laws of physics as we know them now. It takes you well out of Sci-Fi and into Space Fantasy.

So, FTL drives, which Traveller has, also violate the Laws of Physics. So Traveller itself is Science Fantasy? I know that Modern Physicists are TRYING to build an FTL drive, but it is still unproven theory at this time. Therefor it is still a violation of the Laws of Physics.

Until a Theory is Proven, it is not established. You are using a spurious argument. Basically, if you are saying that FTL is OK because we have a theory that we are trying to prove and haven't yet, we are ok; then the same can be said of IR masking because there are SEVERAL unproven theories on how to do that right now as well.

Further, Traveller had FTL drives BEFORE Physics came up with the theory. Therefore it has been Science Fantasy since the beginning. It has often been the PLACE of Science Fiction to suggest paths for actual scientists to direct their studies.

 

[pendragonman]

Looks like they made a mistake then.

(America has an institution with the authority to define literary genres?!? You learn something new every day...)


Hans

If they do, it is news to me as well. Of course, those that get PhD's in Literature have to justify their existence somehow so I am not really surprised.

 

[JFGarber]

More importantly, you cannot mask your blackbody radiation.

If you're above 3°K, you are visible in the IR.

You may be shielded by something in between, you may place yourself in front of something the same temp, but you radiate in the IR at a frequency and energy directly based upon your temperature. And that temperature, because of the fusion plant, is quite hot (even tho' the cabin might not be).

I don't follow this logic. We're discussing a game, which has elements that current technology cannot even approximate. What is the logical basis for departing from reality as we currently understand it in some areas, and attempting to refute those departures in other areas? If it's postulated that unobtanium is used to manufacture FTL drives, why not postulate the use of absurdium to create perfect heat sinks?

 

[rancke]

I don't follow this logic. We're discussing a game, which has elements that current technology cannot even approximate. What is the logical basis for departing from reality as we currently understand it in some areas, and attempting to refute those departures in other areas? If it's postulated that unobtanium is used to manufacture FTL drives, why not postulate the use of absurdium to create perfect heat sinks?

No reason. However, the Traveller writers haven't, AFAIK, postulated the use of absurdium to create perfect heat sinks. Or any kind of heat sink. Absent that, it seems reasonable enough to assume that no such things are available.

(Mind you, I think it would be a great idea if TPTB were to retcon in subspace heat sinks. And stealth fields. And force fields. And death r... Oh, well, perhaps not... )


Hans

 

[aramis]

I don't follow this logic. We're discussing a game, which has elements that current technology cannot even approximate. What is the logical basis for departing from reality as we currently understand it in some areas, and attempting to refute those departures in other areas? If it's postulated that unobtanium is used to manufacture FTL drives, why not postulate the use of absurdium to create perfect heat sinks?

FTL has always been presumed to be a dodge around current physics until the last 10 years. (with the general acceptance of Miguel Alcubierre's paper.) It's not, however, in an area where the theory has been shown to be highly predictive. There ARE theories that are widely accepted, however, that allow for more than just Alcubierre's warp drive. (They mostly involve the widely, but not majority, accepted string theory... tho with the higgs rest mass matching the standard model range, string theory may no longer be viable.)

Thermodynamics, however, is an area where the theory is so well established that any challenge to it requires extraordinary circumstances.

In other words, to one educated in the sciences, it would be like writing a novel set in New York City in 1990 and claiming the sky was chartreuse at noon... every day. Doing so makes for no good coming to the story, and simply pisses off the majority of potential readership.

Plus, dinking with thermodynamics constants makes any use of real physics in building new material for use with traveller utterly pointless, because if it doesn't work the same way, then the universe as we know it can't exist.

It's verisimilitude for anyone with a high school physics class to not break the laws of thermodynamics. Blackbody radiation is so well established that not having it means the universe lacks fundamental constants we need in order to exist.

It also rules out stealth in space without some form of interdimensional heat sink, which said heat sink also makes for other issues... namely, if you can dump heat into a pocket universe, you should be able to send FTL commo through it.

 

[pendragonman]

And you, Aramis, are leaving out possible advances in Materials that won't violate the Laws of Thermo, that don't require multidimensional sincs that allow IR masking. You are basically saying that science in that area will not advance. Can not advance.

Which, of course, is an amazing amount of huzpah on your part. New materials are coming along all the time with interesting properties. And yet you are claiming it can't be done.

How many things that couldn't be done have you seen accomplished in just your lifetime? You really, truly, think that some clever individual won't find a way to mask IR signatures, or disperse it, or even store the heat? Your reasoning with "It can't be done today, it can't violate the Laws of Thermo as we know them today, so it can never happen" just doesn't make sense.

You using the "man of science" routine then claiming that the rules of thermo will never change is not credible. Men of Science in the 15th century "knew" Laws of Science that are completely obsolete today. Saying that the understanding of physics laws won't be different in the Far Future, when we allow FTL, gravatic drives, meson weaponry, and gravity nullifying devices in existence clearly demonstrate that the understanding of many physics laws will change is just... incredulous.

 

[whulorigan]

Blackbody radiation is so well established that not having it means the universe lacks fundamental constants we need in order to exist.

It also rules out stealth in space without some form of interdimensional heat sink, which said heat sink also makes for other issues... namely, if you can dump heat into a pocket universe, you should be able to send FTL commo through it.

Since Traveller (generally) presupposes Gravitic-based Maneuver Drives, what if the heat is passed via the gravitic interaction to the rest of the masses in the star-system with which the M-Drive (or a dedicated spin-off technology) interacts in proportion to their respective masses and distances from the ship?