Adventure-Class Starships in T5

[roger.books]

When designing actual plans, I create a ‘workstation’ for each basic ship function and let the crew jump from station to station. For a small ship, each ‘station’ might be a single panel with the ‘pilot’ able to reach 3 stations at his finger tips and quickly jump to cover 2 more.

I like the design that each "workstation" has the exact same touch screen. The crew lays it out to their preferences. If you are solo you may have Several Screen-in-Screen displays with switching of roles being accomplished by tapping the status area for the other function.

This has the advantage of programmed backups. If the station being occupied by the engineer suffers an engineering casualty it could be failed over to the commo officer who happens to have engineering-1.

Roger

 

[atpollard]

I like the design that each "workstation" has the exact same touch screen. The crew lays it out to their preferences. If you are solo you may have Several Screen-in-Screen displays with switching of roles being accomplished by tapping the status area for the other function.

This has the advantage of programmed backups. If the station being occupied by the engineer suffers an engineering casualty it could be failed over to the commo officer who happens to have engineering-1.

Roger

No disagreement from me at all!

As stated earlier, the difficulty that I encounter in creating deckplans is reconciling the Official requirement for 20 dTons of bridge for any ship from 100 dTons to 1000 dTons with the Official requirement to accommodate 1 Pilot on the 100 dTon Scout and a 10 man Bridge Crew on the 1000 dTon Freighter.

The best compromise that I have been able to come up with is to create about 5 stations on all bridges (1 per basic crew function) and ASSUME that a scout Pilot can jump from station to station as needed while a 1000 dTon Freighter mans every station in shifts as needed.

The ‘configurable panels’ that you like virtually demand that the size of a bridge is directly related to the size of the crew (a concept that I prefer, but which clearly violates both Book 2 and Book 5 of Classic Traveller as well as what has been posted about T5).

If T5 is going to insist on a fixed bridge size, then I would like some explanation that I can use to help design a ship plan without resorting to a big room (whatever fixed tonnage is chosen) that has one seat on a scout ship and clusters of seats on a 1000 dTon Freighter with no explanation for why the Scout Pilot needs so much leg room.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Those official requirements haven't been valid for 20 years; MT, TNE, and T4 all have bridges sized according to needs.

I've never seen any justification for such huge sizes on small ships.

 

[robject]

Those official requirements haven't been valid for 20 years; MT, TNE, and T4 all have bridges sized according to needs.

I've never seen any justification for such huge sizes on small ships.

For that matter, why doesn't the Scout have a 1t bridge? Does it need a copilot's station?

 

[atpollard]

Those official requirements haven't been valid for 20 years; MT, TNE, and T4 all have bridges sized according to needs.

I've never seen any justification for such huge sizes on small ships.

I cannot speak to TNE or T4 since I never saw those rules (although I am looking forward to Marc releasing the TNE CD so I can get a peek). But MT bridge stations appears to be broken in the other direction.

Unless I have misunderstood the whole Bridge/Control Points/Panels/Add On section, it would appear that at TL 12 (average Imperial Tech) I could:

Select a Dynamic Linked Control Panel (+1CP).
Add a Large Holodisplay (+1500 CP).
Connect them to a Model 6 Computer (CP x45).

This would yield a single bridge workstation with (1+1500) x 45 = 67,545 Control Points.

From the formula CP=(Pr/100000)xTL, that would allow the single ‘Pilot’ in the above 67,545 CP Bridge Station to operate any TL 12 ship costing less than MCr 562. With less expensive ships needing a smaller computer.

This includes any ship in CT LBB2, CT Traders and Gunboats or the MT Imperial Encyclopedia – roughly any Commercial Starship up to 1000 dTons or any Military Starship up to 500 dTons. That’s a lot of ship for a Bridge crew of 1.

Other than the DEVIL IN THE DETAILS as mentioned above, I very much liked the variety of control panels, the concept of panel add-ons and the ability to trade fewer people with better computers for more people with simple controls.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

For that matter, why doesn't the Scout have a 1t bridge? Does it need a copilot's station?

Yes, to give you the ability to have a separate pilot and astrogator (or sensor op) when crew are available.

 

[robject]

Yes, to give you the ability to have a separate pilot and astrogator (or sensor op) when crew are available.

So, perhaps four crew stations, then.

 

[far-trader]

Just to stir up the sediments here a bit...

I've never had much problem with the percentage based or minimum tonnage allocations for "bridge" in CT. I'll tell you why. It beats trying to think of every required component and applying a cost and all the rest for it in a design rule that works well.

My CT designs with 20ton bridges work fine. They all have 5 workstations (5tons) even if all aren't needed in routine operation they are required for licensing and handy for future expansion of functions. Then you have the required airlock (3tons) and lockers (2tons). The rest of it isn't shown on the deckplans because it's stuff like: attitude control thrusters, landing gear, atmospheric control surface control linkages, and so on, etc. At one time I used some of the slop tonnage for actually being able to get from one part of the ship to another but that felt wrong.

So, show me where all this "stuff", all this required for the operation of the ship stuff, is in your design system that says you only need this much space for the pilot seat and computer interface to control every aspect of the operation of the ship. Most of those systems don't ever acknowledge a need to be able to get TO the bridge (unless you think corridors are free). If it's there, fine, how much does it add to the cost and everything? Does it all add up to, oh I don't know, maybe somewhere around the old percentages and minimums If not are you sure you haven't forgotten something? And how much more work and time did it take to design that ship?

I have cranked out CT designs in minutes with nothing more than my sloppy wetware (yes, I mean I had memorized the B2 design rules), a pencil, and a piece of paper. With B5 it takes a little longer with some reference to the tables (for weapons mostly) and a calculator is handy. With MT I eventually got it down to about an hour with the tables properly organized and a calculator as a requirement, and several pieces of paper and an eraser. It was about the same for FF&S1 if I didn't get too picky. T20 is falling about in line with MT but I can shortcut in some places and match B5.

So, call me whatever, I got no problem with the old big "bridge" requirements* as I think they beat all the alternatives to date.

* except maybe as the rules apply to small craft

Oh yeah, I meant to ask once, what ever happened to that iconic ship design/deckplan idea? Is that still the way it's being done in T5 or has it been tossed?

 

[aramis]

Those official requirements haven't been valid for 20 years; MT, TNE, and T4 all have bridges sized according to needs.

I've never seen any justification for such huge sizes on small ships.

MT has no bridge in the design seqences. only control panels, HUDs, and displays...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

MT has no bridge in the design seqences. only control panels, HUDs, and displays...

A bridge is what you get when you put them all together!

 

[atpollard]

My CT designs with 20ton bridges work fine. They all have 5 workstations (5tons) even if all aren't needed in routine operation they are required for licensing and handy for future expansion of functions. Then you have the required airlock (3tons) and lockers (2tons). The rest of it isn't shown on the deckplans because it's stuff like: attitude control thrusters, landing gear, atmospheric control surface control linkages, and so on, etc.

About the same solution that I use - but try creating a deckplan for a 100 dTon M1/J1 merchant that works with these tonnages.

So what would you do with a 1000 dton ship using that same 20 dTon bridge only with a captain and executive officer and a total bridge crew of about 10? If you add more stations to accommodate more people without increasing the 'bridge' to 25 dTons (under your space allocation) then what happened to the need for all of those "attitude control thrusters, landing gear, atmospheric control surface control linkages, and so on"?

 

[far-trader]

About the same solution that I use - but try creating a deckplan for a 100 dTon M1/J1 merchant that works with these tonnages.

To be sure things are tight, but then, well, they should be. And of course we're only addressing bridge issues here when it's but one part of the whole, which taken as a whole makes things easier. But harder to explain without.

So what would you do with a 1000 dton ship using that same 20 dTon bridge only with a captain and executive officer and a total bridge crew of about 10? If you add more stations to accommodate more people without increasing the 'bridge' to 25 dTons (under your space allocation) then what happened to the need for all of those "attitude control thrusters, landing gear, atmospheric control surface control linkages, and so on"?

First I'd need to know where you get 10 bridge crew total. We're still talking CT here right? Or is this a T5 requirement?

CT I don't see 10 bridge crew for a 1000ton ship. I see only 3 required, perhaps 4.

Required (from B2, B5 says use B2 for ships 1kton and under) are Pilot, Navigator, Captain (required at 1kton).

Option for including the Executive Officer (required at 1kton) on the bridge but not required (I see it more as a shift position, especially on just 1kton ships).

No need that I see for bridge positions for the 3 Administrative (required at 1kton) crew or any of the others (Engineers, Medics, Stewards, Gunners, others) on the bridge, but they may use the open stations as desired.

Perhaps one of the differences is I have other workstations already included in other features throughout the ship that you put on your bridge? My drives section includes a workstation for each required engineer. My turrets each include a workstation for the gunner. And my computer space includes at least one workstation.

It's handy, and done if the bridge workstations are open, to have the chiefs (engineer and gunner) on the bridge instead but not required. And the Medic, Steward, Administrative personnel, and others will often use an empty bridge workstation for their own job related tasks as well, but again it's not required (and typically they'll use the terminal in their stateroom or their handcomp instead).

 

[robject]

Dragonfly-class Merchant (Type R, TL12)

Built on a type-D hull, the Dragonfly-class merchant is equipped with class B jump drive and class F maneuver and power plant, capable of producing jump-1 and 3G acceleration. Fuel tankage is 52 tons, sufficient for one jump-1 and 2 weeks normal operation. The rather ordinary bridge is complemented with a Model/3 computer. Four hardpoints are present; no weapons are installed.

The ship has sixteen staterooms (six for the crew; ten for passengers); there are ten low berths. Up to four gunners may be added if weaponry is installed.

The ship carries two 10-ton small boats for passenger shuttling and minor errands; they are usually piloted by the navigator or an engineer. Cargo capacity is 190 tons.

The Dragonfly merchant requires skill complements for pilot, astrogator, engineer, medic, and steward. It costs MCr 125.2, and takes 14 months to build.

Volume  Component                   Price

(400)   Hull-D LDK                   16
  20    Standard Bridge (6 consoles)  -
        -  Computer model/3         
        1  Communicator-10            0.1    Long Range
        4  Visor-8                    1.0
        1  Radar-10                   0.1    Long Range
  15    Jump drive-B (J1)            20
  11    Maneuver drive-F (3G)        24
  19    Power plant-F (600Mj)        48
  52    Fuel                          -
   4    Hardpoints (4)                -
  64    Staterooms (16)               8
   5    Low berths (10)               1
  20    Small boats (2)               6
   1    Ship's Locker                 1
 190    Cargo                         -
------- ----------------------- ---------
                                MCr 125.2

 

[robject]

First I'd need to know where you get 10 bridge crew total. We're still talking CT here right?

Ah, the closest CT gets is TTB page 59, and it ain't talking solely bridge crew.

Large Ships: For ships greater than 1000 tons, the crew should include a commanding officer (or captain), an
executive officer, and at least three administrative personnel. Ships over 1000 tons should have at least ten crew members per 1000 tons of mass displacement.

So that's, erm, at least four guys on the bridge (pilot, astrogator, CO, XO...).

 

[far-trader]

Key there and my point being it doesn't say nor imply to me "bridge crew" just crew:

Ships greater than 1kton "at least 10 crew per kton" is 10 total crew per kton, not 10 bridge crew. And that's including the commander, executive officer, three admins, pilot, navigator, medic, engineers and needed stewards, gunners and others.

Ships 1kton only need the two officers and three admins in addition to the required crew, and not all of them are bridge crew.

 

[atpollard]

First I'd need to know where you get 10 bridge crew total. We're still talking CT here right? Or is this a T5 requirement?

I was vaguely remembering the Crew Requirements from TTB, p61, and confusing it with the Command Section Requirements from LBB 5, p32.

Sorry, that was my bad.

Your analysis appears correct, however note that the Bridge of an 1100 dTon Book 5 ship should have 7 Officers (commanding, executive, computer, 2x navigation, medical, and communications) and 4 Ratings (50% of 7 = 3.5). All of whom would probably be on duty for the critical 8 hours or less from Jump Exit to High Port.

I interpret ‘should’ to mean ‘must’ otherwise all of the freighters would have a crew of 1 because the owner wanted to save money on staterooms, life support and salaries.

The transition in bridge crew size (assuming that larger ships actually need a larger bridge crew) should probably be gradual and not jump abruptly from a Bridge crew of 2 (Pilot, Navigator) for a 990 dTon ship to 11 for a 1010 dTon ship. (That is why I use 1 bridge station per 100 dTons IMTU.) If it comes down to ‘Imperial Regulations’, then I see a need for a lot of small crew 999.9 dTon starships to replace the super freighters on lucrative routes.

“For starships of greater than 1000 tons hull mass displacement, the crew should also include a commanding officer (or captain), his executive officer, and at least three administrative personnel. Extremely large starships should have at least 10 crew members for each 1000 tons of mass displacement.” [The Traveller Book, pg 61]

“The actual number of crew personnel required for the ship must be computed based on the drives, weaponry, and other equipment carried by the ship. If the ship is 1,000 tons or under, then the rules stated in Book 2 should be followed. For ships over 1,000 tons, the rules given below govern.
Command Section: The ship should have a commanding officer, an executive officer, a computer officer, two navigation officers, a medical officer, and a communications officer. The section should also have some support personnel, ratings equal to 50% of the total officers in the section.” [LBB5, pg 32]

 

[Border Reiver]

Eee, I think I'll stick with MT. Much more straight forward.:nonono::devil::rofl::rofl:

 

[atpollard]

Eee, I think I'll stick with MT. Much more straight forward.

Once you collect all of the eratta.[sic]

 

[atpollard]

Dragonfly-class Merchant (Type R, TL12)

Built on a type-D hull, the Dragonfly-class merchant is equipped with class B jump drive and class F maneuver and power plant, capable of producing jump-1 and 3G acceleration. Fuel tankage is 52 tons, sufficient for one jump-1 and 2 weeks normal operation. The rather ordinary bridge is complemented with a Model/3 computer. Four hardpoints are present; no weapons are installed.
[snip]

Two quick questions:

1. Are PP very TL sensitive in T5?
(Would the ship be much different at TL 15?)

2. Ball Park figures only, does the MD or JD use more fuel?
(assume M2 and J2)

 

[robject]

Two quick questions:

1. Are PP very TL sensitive in T5?
(Would the ship be much different at TL 15?)

2. Ball Park figures only, does the MD or JD use more fuel?
(assume M2 and J2)

1. The PP is not TL sensitive.

(At TL15, the ship would have better, cheaper sensors)

2. Usually the jump drive requires significantly more fuel than the power plant.