Zoe's gun in Serenity

[bromdenlong]

I had forgotten this one little aspect of the show.

Zoe's gun is a total knockoff of the gun Steve McQueen used in an old TV western series. I can't remember the name of the series, but the gun was named "Mare's Leg", "because it kicked at both ends".

The only immediately obvious difference is the odd sight she has mounted on top of it. It almost looks like she mounted a cartridge case with the head cut out as a simple tube to view through.

I've never shot a chopped-down lever action like that, but it strikes me as highly impractical. I guess it looks cool.

Has anyone here actually shot such a gun, or anything like it? The closest I've come is attaching a hard plastic pistol grip to my pump 12 gauge with an 18.5 inch barrel. I could shoot it well enough at 7-10 yards or so (anyone could) but it hurt my right hand like all hell. I think 3 or 4 shots was all I was willing to put up with.

 

[archhealer]

Yes, I've shot something similiar. It was a custom modified sawnoff 10 guage. And yes, it hurt to fire. Immensley. And it was also highly innacurate. It had open sights, but there's certainly lots of guns out there which have tubular 'open' sights. not terribly unusual.

For traveller purposes, I'd consider such a weapon to simply be a sawed off shotgun with a pistol grip, similiar to what you described.

 

[Border Reiver]

The series your thinking of is Wanted Dead or Alive starring Steve McQueen. The weapon used was a sawn off Winchester '86, packing the whopping 45-70 cartridge. I've fired an original '86 carbine (22" barrel to those that want to argue over rifle/carbine definitions

) and it packed a kick, 4 rounds in the mag. A big beauty of a rifle and it weighed in at 8lb. I dread to think what a genuine hogleg version would feel like.

So for game purposes whatare we looking at?

If you want to go with the 10bore hand cannon there is a TNE/Dark Conspiracy one available to use. If your looking at the heavy rifle cart. hogleg, try using heavy sniper rifle damage, range of pistol and the need to use TWO hands to avoid a damaged wrist.

 

[Todg]

The gun used by McQueen (the Mare's leg) was a Mare's Leg was an 1892 Winchester 30-40 carbine. The original gun is at the Fort Spaghetti Restaurant and Museum in Anaheim.

Even a cutdown rifle in .45-70 isn't necessarily a wrist breaker. Consider that the .500 S&W - a pistol cartridge - generates much more recoil than the .45-70. Indeed, the .45-70 has already been chambered in at least one revolver - the Magnum Research BFR http://www.magnumresearch.com/BFR.asp

The .45-70, particularly in it's original loading, is a rather mild cartridge, throwing a .400gn bullet at around 1300 fps - about the same muzzle energy as the 7.62x39mm Russian service round.

 

[Uncle Bob]

I thought the 30-40 was only chambered in the
Model 1894? The 1892 could only accomodate short, pistol-style cartridges.

I think Zoe's gun may be a pistol cartridge carbine (.357 or .44 magnum). I recall it having a small loading gate.

 

[Border Reiver]

Corejob is right, it is a 30-40 with the extra large lever loop for gloves (allows one hand cocking for show offs), though are you sure McQueen's wasn't a 94 gun. The 92 fired pistol cartridges, 32 or 44 and the like, making the Mare's Leg a real easy gun to fire but a bugger to aim.

Remember, the big caliber pistols are ergonomically designed to be fired one handed, the pressures on the hand from a cut down rifle stock are completely different. 45-70 Gov would IMHO be considered a moderate loading even from a short barrel. Those figures are right and as someone who has fired an AKSU one handed (necessity not showing off) it really is a bitch on the wrist.

 

[bromdenlong]

I still haven't found the magazine article I have on the Mare's leg and other Hollywood Western firearms.

I think Corejob is right - I remember reading that it was chambered for a pistol round, but that they had McQueen wear .45-70 cartridges in his belt loops because they looked tougher.

It would certainly be no wristbreaker in any typical revolver round, and would be more practical and hold more shots. Still seems suboptimal, but if it's the only gun you've got and you need something smaller than a carbine, I guess it could get you by better than a sharp stick.

Border Reiver - thanks for the name of the show.

Corejob - I'm close to Fort Spaghetti. I should go check it out. Do you know if the food is any good?

Also, your comparison of the .45-70 and the .500 S&W rings true enough, but I have to wonder about your comparison between the .45-70 and the 7.62x39. The muzzle energies are comparable (when you are talking about the cowboy/blackpowder level loads), but the .45-70 bullet weighs 2.5 or 3 times as much, so we're talking about a lot more momentum. I think recoil is a matter of conservation of momentum. I've never shot a .45-70. I have shot a SKS in 7.62x39. Admittedly, this is a semiauto, which helps a lot with perceived recoil, but it was a total pussycat.

Archhealer - did the 10 gauge you shot have a straight grip or more of a pistol grip? The pistol grip on my 12 gauge drove straight into the joint at the base of my thumb. That was what hurt for me, not my wrist. I have wondered if a straight grip (more in line with the barrel of the gun) would hurt less. Does anyone have any experience with this?

 

[Todg]

1894. I mistyped. Thanks.

Recoil is a function of projectile weight, velocity, propellant weight and gun mass.

I suspect the .45-70 has more recoil than the 7.62 by a good margine, since SCHV weapon gain energy without increasing recoil.

Here's some numbers:

Winchester isn't offering the .45-70, so I used the Marline guide gun as an exemplar. Weight 7.5 pounds, firing a 405 lead bullet at 1300 fps (original loading). Leaving off propellant mass, that's a recoil energy of 16J and a muzzle energy of 2057J.

AK-47: Weight 4.3kg, muzzle velocity 700m/s. 2009J muzzle energy but only 4J of recoil energy. The low recoil is partially due to the heavier weight od the AK, but Isaac_1963 is essentially correct. With close to the same muzzle energy, the .45-70 has 3 times the recoil in weapons of the same weight.

It should also be noted that the .45-70 loading commercially available are designed to be safe to shoot in antique riflkes like the Springfield 'trap door' a particular;y weak action. Modern rifles such as the Ruger number 1 and afore mentioned Marlin Guide Gun are capable of handling much more powerful loads.

I'm particularly found of the offering by Garret Cartridge. They have a .45-70 load called 'Hammerhead' which has a 540gn hard cast bullet traveling at 1550 f/s. It generates almost 4000J of muzzle energy and a whopping 40J of recoil energy - more than a 12ga shotgun (30J) but not quite that of the .458Win Mag (at around 75J)

Just as an aside, the S&W .500 with the heaviest load available, generated almost 75J or recoil energy - about the same a a.458win mag - well known as an elephant stopper. I've personally fired the big S&W and can say that it is not for the faint of heart. No wrist damage, but after firing hald a box of ammo, both my hands were stinging. Imagine having you palms slapped hard with a wet leather strop.

Recoil while uncomfiortable for some, is rarely injurious other than some bruising unless you do something terribly wrong or stupid.

 

[sid6.7]

i'm not a gunsmith but my best friend and his
father are so i've spent a few(20)years around
firearms i sure wouldnt want to fire anything
sawed off very many times...no you might
not break your wrist but it wont feel good,
ever...

1 thing my buddy noted for the 189X models
was some were BP so the kick wouldnt have
been as bad as modern smokeless...

he didnt reccomend firing a sawed off rifle
or shotgun one handed EVER...the little .410
pistol is bad enough....

i know zoe does it...but thats the movies..
didnt steve mcqueen always 2 hand his or
am i thinking the rifleman?


question:
i do remember something somehwhere that if
there is no rifling in the barrel? a .357
or .44 mag will twist right out of your hand
or break it if you dont let go....

so if you elimnate alot of the barrel on a rifle
if you try to one hand it wouldnt it do the same?

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
i'm not a gunsmith but my best friend and his
father are so i've spent a few(20)years around
firearms i sure wouldnt want to fire anything
sawed off very many times...no you might
not break your wrist but it wont feel good,
ever...

1 thing my buddy noted for the 189X models
was some were BP so the kick wouldnt have
been as bad as modern smokeless...

Black powder loads use heavy bullets to extract the most energy from slow burning black powder. The result is often high recoil.

he didnt reccomend firing a sawed off rifle
or shotgun one handed EVER...the little .410
pistol is bad enough....

I have a friend who fires a 12 ga shotgun one-handed, using a pistol grip. But he does weigh 150 Kg.

i know zoe does it...but thats the movies..
didnt steve mcqueen always 2 hand his or
am i thinking the rifleman?

Yes, McQueen's character usually used two hands.

question:
i do remember something somehwhere that if
there is no rifling in the barrel? a .357
or .44 mag will twist right out of your hand
or break it if you dont let go....

No.

so if you elimnate alot of the barrel on a rifle
if you try to one hand it wouldnt it do the same?

It will twist in the hand more than a long barreled gun because of it's lower weight and much lower moment of inertia.

OTOH, a short barrel shoots at a somewhat lower velocity, reducing recoil.

 

[Todg]

Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sid6.7:

1 thing my buddy noted for the 189X models
was some were BP so the kick wouldnt have
been as bad as modern smokeless...

Black powder loads use heavy bullets to extract the most energy from slow burning black powder. The result is often high recoil.</font>[/QUOTE]Add to that the fact that recoil is also a function of propellant weight, and BP weapons typically have heavier powder charges than smokeless catridges of the same caliber

 

[bromdenlong]

Originally posted by sid6.7:



question:
i do remember something somehwhere that if
there is no rifling in the barrel? a .357
or .44 mag will twist right out of your hand
or break it if you dont let go....

I remember reading in some gun magazine that the less friction there is between the barrel and the bullet, the less recoil (or perceived recoil) there is (maybe because the bullet leaves the barrel quicker?). If that's true, then a barrel with no rifling should kick a little harder, but wristbreaking sounds like an old wive's tale to me.

 

[Todg]

Nope. Recoil energy is a function of bullet velocity, bullet mass, propellant mass and gun mass. I'm not sure where gun writers get this stuff.

You can alter perceived recoil by stretching the recoil impulse over a longer period of time, or spread it over a larger area, but the recoil energy remains the same.

 

[shadowdragon]

the perception of recoil is also something to note.
I have a .357mag 4" barrel revolver and a .44mag 7" revolver. I prefer to shoot the .44 because the "kick" is more in line with my hand rather than the "kick" into the air the .357mag does. I "feel" less of the recoil from the .44mag even though i know logically it "kicks" harder.
from what i have been told- BP burns slower than smokeless so what is a "kick" with modern gun is a "shove" with BP.

note: pistol rounds and rifle rounds are worlds apart. even in the same cal. 45-70 much different from .45 acp as .50 casul is different from .50 BMG


Question: is there a 44-70 cartridge? may be confusing it with 45-70

 

[Todg]

Black powder weapons tend to have more kick. They have more recoil energy because the have a larger powder mass.

 

[shadowdragon]

what I am refering to is how it is felt, at least as it has been described to me by a friend much into BP shooting. Smokeless powder has a much faster burn rate than BP. so when the 45-70 kicks your 98 lb butt on to, well your butt, that there .68 cal musket just shoves you backwards a few steps, which nobody really sees due to all that smoke.....

the same person who told me above also told me about his 45-70 (44-70?) winchester lever action beating the crud out of him the first two times he shot it. at the time was biggest he had ever shot (smokeless) otre than shotguns.

he 6-4 and damn near 350lbs...
i laughed at him till i did the same with 7mm mauser..... then i laughed at me....

 

[Todg]

I've shot the .45-70 with both smokeless and black powder loads. The difference isn't much - most people probably can't tell the difference until you get to really heavy powder charges.

As far as being knocked around, .45-70 is a powder-puff. I shoot .458 Win Mag. .458 Lott, .470 NE and even .577NE. It's not something you want to do all the time, but it's survivable. After firing 60 rounds of .458 win mag (500gn bullet on 72gn of 4895) I was sore and brusied.

There seems to be a great difference in recoil tolerance. I'm 5'10 and 200 lbs. My 12 year old daughter shoots my 4" S&W model 57 .41 magnum and thinks it's fun. I frequently give demos of recoil shooting an M1A (civilian version of the M-14) .308 rifle off my chin.

Here's a video of me shooting an FN FAL (also .308) off my chin. Sorry about the poor quality.

http://www.guntech.com/muzzle/muzzle_mpeg2.html

This is lightweight version of the rifle weighing about 7 pounds. Note that the 7mm Mauser is a much lower powered round.

 

[shadowdragon]

7mm mauser may be a lower powered round, but when you dont know what the gun is (was a gift from a guy who had it in his closet for 20+ years and couldn't be bothered to inform me of specifics) and someone who turns out to be an idiot tells you 7mm mag, i'm damn lucky i gots all my parts i think. didn't find out that 1- the guy was an idiot, and 2- slight difference between 7mm mag and mauser loads, until i put 30 rounds thru it and decided it was low on my list of fun toys. doesn't help i'm a 6 foot gorilla and its about 3" too short for me to shoot properly, it all adds up to pain.

either that or i'm a complete moron and have no clue what i'm doing. very possible as my interest in firearms is rather new.

 

[Todg]

The worst kicking gun I ever owned was a very light .300 win mag. Bad design and light weight can really make a bruiser.

 

[sid6.7]

try this:

http://www.bofunk.com/video/3286/recoil.html

when you get there just click on save to my computer its super fast that way otherwise
you'll have to wait for a few minutes...

some of this talk on recoil is relative
to the person and thier experience rather
then the arm itself...