Zhodani appearance

[Cap Trooper]

Hi everyone. I've been planning on starting up a Traveller campaign again after many years of 'abstinence' and have been reading through my old books. One thing I haven't been able to find is a clear description of the physical appearance of the Zhodani.

I have the old classic Traveller Zhodani supplement, and the only thing I've seen is their height, eye color, and that their skin is swarthy.

It appears that swarthy is a rather broad range of skin tone.

Does anyone know of an official reference that makes it clear? Is their appearance Middle Eastern, Indian, Chinese, Japanese or something else? I have no preference either way, was just wondering if there's an 'official' description in some book I haven't checked or possibly don't own.

If there's nothing official, I will fall back on the old referee's option of winging it

Thanks for any info you can provide.

 

[Sir Brad]

Due to Genetic Drift, introduction of Minor Race Bloodlines the appearance varies significantly, but the Original Stock was was drawn from the far eastern Mediterranean, 300k years ago differentiation of the ethnic stock was not as established as it is today, this area would give rise to Pre-Hellenistic Turk, Arab, Hebrew and Persian ethenisicties among others (many extinct or absorbed in to modern ethnic groups). you could apply those completions to long thin faces.

 

[Dragoner]

Looking at the color plates on the front and back of alien module 4, they look south east european, Serbs etc.; or maybe Caucasian such as Georgians or Azeri.

 

[Sir Brad]

IIRC they came from what is modern Turkey and the Fertile Crescent, the Humans from that region expanded both east in to the modern middle-east (crossbreeding with local population) and West as far as the Balkans, I forget how far south they got though.

 

[Easterner9504]

Mongoose take on Zho physiology. Pg 30, AM4: ZHODANI

They tend to be tall and lithe, averaging close to two
metres in height and massing roughly 90 kilograms.
Complexions are predominantly swarthy and hair colour
is usually black or brown. Blond hair is uncommon but a
mutation that occurred on Zhdant in the last 10,000 years
made prematurely grey hair twice as common as red hair.
Zhodani have 28 relatively large teeth in contrast to the
32 teeth possessed by Solomani and Vilani. This is not
especially noticeable but it does mean a brief dental
examination can identify Zhodani

All the physiological characteristics of Zhodani are the
result of two factors: the original gene pool of the Humans
who first inhabited Zhdant and minor mutations or
developments that have taken place during the 300,000
years they have lived on their planet. Their height and
physical build are both consequences of Zhdant’s 0.85G
surface gravity. Environmental factors, which selected
specific traits during their evolution on Zhdant, have also
shaped their basic complexion.

 

[Sir Brad]

lifted almost if entirely word for word from AM4 Zhodani (I'd have to check the page reference to make 100% sure but I think it is page 12.

 

[DonM]

It's not quite word for word, but I was trying NOT to change the intent of the original material. You might also look at the Culture discussion (pages 40 - 43) in Mongoose Zhodani for additional suggestions.

Even now when I look through the hardback, I find something I wish I'd added. Don't go by the artwork too much -- the people are a bit to "WASP"-looking for me. I regret not having pushed more to take the JTAS #23 page 42 look a bit more. That's a Keith, so I take it seriously.

You might also look at the GURPS Traveller book -- there's more artwork in it than in any of the CT books, but they all appear to depict low-tech worlds (at least to me).

 

[Otto Harkaman]

What other JTAS has Zhodani information?

I have read a lot about the later Byzantine empire not so much about the Turks.
I think I started to read Stanley Lane-Poole's history of the Ottoman Turks.

 

[Tobias]

If you mean visual information, the Contact: Zhodani article in JTAS 9 has some. Other sources are AM4 (of course), Alien Realms, the cover of Solomani & Aslan (with a Zhodani couple in the background) and GTAR1.

It stands to reason that there exists a considerable amount of variation in Zhodani phenotypes as well as Zhodani fashion (though in both cases probably a lot less so than in the Imperium.)

 

[Dragoner]

Given the timespan, the Zhodani morphology should be similar to ours.

 

[aramis]

Given the timespan, the Zhodani morphology should be similar to ours.

300K years?

Several of the bear species are younger than that. By many real definitions, H. Sapiens is younger than that... Depending on which set of data you look at, and how it is interpreted, there have been between 2 and 8 species of Humans during that timeframe on earth alone; there are at least 4 readily identifiable subspecies in that timeframe by the dissenting scientists.

The Zhos could very well be a wholly different species. (Also note: some terran sub populations don't have wisdom teeth - 28 teeth, not 32.

 

[rancke]

300K years?

Several of the bear species are younger than that. By many real definitions, H. Sapiens is younger than that... Depending on which set of data you look at, and how it is interpreted, there have been between 2 and 8 species of Humans during that timeframe on earth alone; there are at least 4 readily identifiable subspecies in that timeframe by the dissenting scientists.

And in that time the Zhodani split into two subspecies that eventually merged again.

So, yes, the Zhodani could have diverged into different ethnic configurations (I'm avoiding the use of the word 'race' because in Imperial scientific usage it means something other than what we mean when we talk about races on Earth) just as varied as the Solomani did on Terra.

On the Terra of the Traveller universe, early Homo sapiens was already around 300,000 years ago, but canon doesn't nail down how many other hominid species may have evolved and perished while they survived; just that none of the others survived until historical times.

The Zhos could very well be a wholly different species. (Also note: some terran sub populations don't have wisdom teeth - 28 teeth, not 32.

They could have been, but they're not. They are interfertile with the other subspecies of Homo sapiens, as are the Vilani, the Darrians, and some of the other Minor Human Races. Others of the MHRs, however, have evolved into separate species, like the Luriani and the Dynchia.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

300K years?

Several of the bear species are younger than that. By many real definitions, H. Sapiens is younger than that... Depending on which set of data you look at, and how it is interpreted, there have been between 2 and 8 species of Humans during that timeframe on earth alone; there are at least 4 readily identifiable subspecies in that timeframe by the dissenting scientists.

The Zhos could very well be a wholly different species. (Also note: some terran sub populations don't have wisdom teeth - 28 teeth, not 32.

Yes, it is actually far more time than what is needed; thus they could technically look anyway one wished to portray them, in reality. I believe it is some Chinese populations that don't have wisdom teeth, Han maybe, I don't know the exact ethnicity.

 

[Dragoner]

And in that time the Zhodani split into two subspecies that eventually merged again.

So, yes, the Zhodani could have diverged into different ethnic configurations (I'm avoiding the use of the word 'race' because in Imperial scientific usage it means something other than what we mean when we talk about races on Earth) just as varied as the Solomani did on Terra.

On the Terra of the Traveller universe, early Homo sapiens was already around 300,000 years ago, but canon doesn't nail down how many other hominid species may have evolved and perished while they survived; just that none of the others survived until historical times.


They could have been, but they're not. They are interfertile with the other subspecies of Homo sapiens, as are the Vilani, the Darrians, and some of the other Minor Human Races. Others of the MHRs, however, have evolved into separate species, like the Luriani and the Dynchia.


Hans

It is actually Archaic Homo Sapiens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_Homo_sapiens

IMTU, Homo Sapiens went extinct during the Toba Event, and Solomani, Vilani, Zhodani are all interconnected by a False Dawn human civilization populated by who anthropologists would term: Homo Sapiens Intercedent some 50,000 to 70,000 years ago. Then the devil dragged them under (you know who); it rids MTU of any "parallel evolution" ridiculousness, while neatly providing for interfertility and the rest.

 

[rancke]

It is actually Archaic Homo Sapiens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_Homo_sapiens

But Archaic Homo sapiens ('Archaic' is prepended to the taxonomic name and is not italicized, and only the first part of a taxonomic name is capitalized) is a term used for the Real World species. In the Real World he may not have existed 300,000 years ago. Early Homo sapiens definitely did exist 300,000 years ago in the Traveller universe where the taxonomic name is actually Homo sapiens antiquus. [GT: Humaniti, p. 6].


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

But Archaic Homo sapiens ('Archaic' is prepended to the taxonomic name and is not italicized, and only the first part of a taxonimic name is capitalized) is a term used for the Real World species. In the Real World he may not have existed 300,000 years ago. Early Homo sapiens definitely did exist 300,000 years ago in the Traveller universe where the taxonomic name is actually Homo sapiens antiquus. [GT: Humaniti, p. 6].


Hans

The term is still archaic homo sapiens, saying "early", can lead to confusion; I prefer real world science in Traveller. It is no fault it wasn't included before, they didn't know, science marching ever onward.

I don't own any gurps stuff. Making up some alternate history, which then solves no internal issues, is silly, imo, but whatever. Those homo sapiens antiquus would have to parellel evolve into modern humans, which of course is junk science. I don't like to pull that on players. Intercedent explains not only why they are so similar, but also can be used to as why there are so many habitable planets.

80,000 years ago is the archeological determination for modern humans, even less genetically if one goes by the FOXP2 gene, in order to have human language.

 

[Whipsnade]

... but the Original Stock was was drawn from the far eastern Mediterranean...

Complete and utter rubbish. There is nothing in canon suggesting that Yaskodray drew his samples from any specific location or locations on Earth.

In fact when you match the game's canonical, but fictional, date of Yaskodray's sampling, against the Real Wold's genetically determined Out-of-Africa human migration model, the only place on Earth where Grandfather could have been picking up humans circa 300,000 BCE is Africa.

CT's AM:4 described the Zhodani and, because Mongoose finally decided to hire an author who knows the difference between Traveller and a hole in the ground, the MgT description echoes that earlier canonical one.

 

[rancke]

The term is still archaic homo sapiens,

It's 'archaic Homo sapiens', actually.

...saying "early", can lead to confusion;

Perhaps it can, but then one can always explain and clear up the confusion. I use it to emphasize that it does not refer to the same as "archaic Homo sapiens" refers to.

I don't own any GURPS stuff.

Not a problem. Those of us who do are perfectly willing to tell you all about it.

Making up some alternate history, which then solves no internal issues, is silly, imo, but whatever. Those homo sapiens antiquus would have to parellel evolve into modern humans, which of course is junk science.

It certainly would be junk science if they had to parallel evolve on separate worlds from different non-interfertile hominid species into interfertile species. Which is precisely why a common ancestor 300,000 years ago is something that has to exist in the Traveller universe, regardless of what theories becomes more and less popular among Real World paleonlologists.

In the Traveller universe, the population of Homo sapiens antiquus who remained on Terra evolved (though not very much) into Homo sapiens sapiens. The population of Homo sapiens antiquus who were taken to Vland evolved (though not very much) into Homo sapiens vlandensis. Both remained close enough to Homo sapiens antiquus to remain interfertile and thus both remains subspecies of Homo sapiens. Repeat this argument for Zhodani, Darrians, and others. The population of Homo sapiens antiquus who were taken to Daramm, OTOH, evolved (somewhat more than the aforementioned populations) into Homo luriani, no longer interfertile with the various subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus a different species.

Note that I've left out complications such as genetic tampering by the Ancients and the question of advanced medical assistance enabling members of different populations to have viable fertile progeny that they would not be able to have without such assistance.

I don't like to pull that on players. Intercedent explains not only why they are so similar, but also can be used to as why there are so many habitable planets.

If you feel a need to explain something that really doesn't need to be explained, then that's fine by me. No skin off my nose. Intercedent violates canon in a different way, but hey, it's your universe.

80,000 years ago is the archeological determination for modern humans, even less genetically if one goes by the FOXP2 gene, in order to have human language.

I had not heard about this theory before, but googling FOXP2 on Wiki tells me that it is present in both the Neanderthals and the Denisovans, both of whom is currently believed to have split from us 800,000 years ago and from each other 600,000 years ago.

At the moment your argument does not make sense to me. Perhaps it would make sense if you explained it a bit, but I'm not going to ask you to do so, because the question is completely moot. Whatever the evolutionary history of hominids in the real world, a common ancestor 300,000 years ago is something that has to exist in the Traveller universe, and I for one refuse to swallow the Ancients and strain at a possible slightly different alternate hominid evolution.


Hans

 

[Dragoner]

It certainly would be junk science if they had to parallel evolve on separate worlds from different non-interfertile hominid species into interfertile species. Which is precisely why a common ancestor 300,000 years ago is something that has to exist in the Traveller universe, regardless of what theories becomes more and less popular among Real World paleonlologists.

In the Traveller universe, the population of Homo sapiens antiquus who remained on Terra evolved (though not very much) into Homo sapiens sapiens. The population of Homo sapiens antiquus who were taken to Vland evolved (though not very much) into Homo sapiens vlandensis. Both remained close enough to Homo sapiens antiquus to remain interfertile and thus both remains subspecies of Homo sapiens. Repeat this argument for Zhodani, Darrians, and others. The population of Homo sapiens antiquus who were taken to Daramm, OTOH, evolved (somewhat more than the aforementioned populations) into Homo luriani, no longer interfertile with the various subspecies of Homo sapiens and thus a different species.

I prefer things to make sense. The sad thing about that horribly unscientific paragraph is that it makes a mockery of Traveller. I don't understand the reasoning to go and write something and be wrong. It would have been better to leave what had been written before and then say nothing.

Saying modern humans parallel evolve on 20-30 worlds, when it didn't even happen once on Earth? No, it beggars belief; with no purpose in the game.

 

[rancke]

Saying modern humans parallel evolve on 20-30 worlds, when it didn't even happen once on Earth? No, it beggars belief; with no purpose in the game.

It would beggar belief if that had been what I said. But I didn't.

If I had claimed that on Earth Homo sapiens antiquus evolved into Homo sapiens sapiens and on Zdant Homo sapiens antiquus evolved into Homo sapiens sapiens and on Vland Homo sapiens antiquus evolved into Homo sapiens sapiens and on Darrian Homo sapiens antiquus evolved into Homo sapiens sapiens, etc. etc., then you would have a point. But as I didn't, you have no point at all.

You seem to be claiming that there are no examples of species on Earth that have remained stable for 300,000 years, but that is such utter nonsens that I can't believe that's what you actually mean. AFAIK it's not even been proven that archaic Homo sapiens wasn't around 300,000 years ago[*], although the most popular theories have changed. 35 years ago, when Traveller was written, it was thought that Homo sapiens probably was around 300,000 years ago. That's presumably why GDW picked that time for their Ancients shenanigans.

[*] I could be wrong there; I haven't kept up with the evidence produced by gene analysis.​

There's certainly nothing inherently unreasonable about a species remaining fairly stable for 300,000 years. The big problem with the story comes if it turns out that Homo sapiens wasn't one of them, since that would make the common ancestor of all human races in the Traveller universe not Homo sapiens and make the Terran branch non-interfertile with every one of the other branches. So regardless of how the evidence eventually turns out (or has already turned out) here in the Real World, in the Traveller universe it didn't happen. But that's such a minor tweak and not at all unbelievable.

The purpose would be to keep one of the most fundamental aspects of the fictional setting that is the Traveller universe intact.


Hans