World Tech Level: Production or Use?

[chshrkt]

This post by Far-Trader got me thinking (again) about what the TL rating for a system/planet really means.

Owing to the vast differences in TL here on our own little mote of dust in the galaxy, I have come to the conclusion that IMTU the TL of any given system refers to the level at which tech can be produced in a commercially viable export production capacity.

Thus, that TL 5 Ag world does in fact use high-tech farming techniques and equipment, it just can't produce it there.

What, it doesn't have a high tech starport either? Well, just how difficult is it to load Quadrotriticale into a bulk freighter anyway? All you need is a wide hardened surface on which to land your ship, open up the cargo hatch, let the gantry roll up next to you and start dumping in bulk grain.

I always think of the story by Brian Daley, "Han Solo at Star's End" when someone mentions a low TL Ag world. The land is just too valuable for growing food stuffs to waste too much of it to an industrial production capacity enough to bump the TL up to Imperium "standard".

I cannot think of any canon references that specifically answer this question.

How is it IYTU?

 

[far-trader]

This post by Far-Trader got me thinking (again)...

Oh oh What'd I say this time

...about what the TL rating for a system/planet really means.

How is it IYTU?

IMTU...

Well, the whole UWP is really just a shorthand code invented by the Traveller's Aid Society for the benefit of providing some guidance to it's members as they travel. It's simplistic and reduced to basics, like the short text blurb that usually accompanies it, to reduce the size so a TAS member can keep a copy of the Journal with them in a pocket. It's a hardcopy book, extremely durable (practically indestructible) and not too thick.

Only rarely updated most members use the same one in their whole lifetime, often annotating it as they travel with personal notes in the margin. More than one TAS member has been saved by the Journal when it stopped a bullet or blade.

Specific to the question of what the TL rating means, it's the generally available goods and services in the area of the starport. Other areas of the world may be (rarely) more or (often) less advanced. If more advanced it is usually not available to travellers, through normal channels at least.

Sooo...

...that TL 5 Ag world may use high-tech farming techniques and equipment, but you won't see it at the starport and it's more likely they won't use it at all since it would cost too much to maintain.

 

[Agemegos]

This post by Far-Trader got me thinking (again) about what the TL rating for a system/planet really means.

Owing to the vast differences in TL here on our own little mote of dust in the galaxy, I have come to the conclusion that IMTU the TL of any given system refers to the level at which tech can be produced in a commercially viable export production capacity.

Thus, that TL 5 Ag world does in fact use high-tech farming techniques and equipment, it just can't produce it there.

I agree entirely. It stands to reason that if the places export, they also import, and therefore that imports are available and in use. And what is a low-tech world going to import low tech stuff for? So the actual Middle Ages or Victorian steam-tech economies are a simple model for the employment of technology on a low-tech world, but it isn't a very convincing one.

 

[Ishmael]

I'm definately in 'tech level is for production' camp.
Higher tech is whatever the people can afford to import.

if tech is simply labor multipiers, then a machine that triples production is less useful on a world where 4 laborers can be had for the same cost. Just import raw materials.
Ores and other raw materials could be considered 'low' tech.

 

[Bishop Odo]

I also agree. The TL should refer to average production level of a planet; I’d like to stress average, because there are always exceptions. Sometimes, I really think Traveller has it roots too firmly based in the War gamming and creates as adversarial tone between the game master and players; the need to quantify and codify economics is seen by many players as attempt to “get “more cash out of the GM. That’s a bad idea. Tech levels should only be a guide to the GM and the player for enhancement of the game, if you get into playing mini-games with the GM over cash, it generally ends badly. Trust your GM, if you can’t, you are in the wrong gaming group.

 

[Golan2072]

It depends on how much trade the world gets. There are basically three general kinds of worlds in this regard:

1) Integrated. This kind of world is an integral part of the interstellar economy, and in this case TL signifies only what could be produced locally; a lower TL signifies a weaker industrial base, while a higher TL signifies a stronger one. On such a world you'll usually find a mixture of local tech and imported tech of various TLs - the wealthy would virtually live in the interstellar TL; the middle-class would have a mixture of local technology with imported items (many of them of a lower TL than the interstellar maximum); the poor would mostly use local tech with an occasional imported item or two. Military forces would combine local tech with imported tech - keep in mind that maintaining - not just purchasing - imported gear is expensive; you might even see a steam dreadnought (local tech) mounting a few imported laser cannons (powered by a cheap mini-reactor by far not powerful enough to power the ship) alongside its local-tech cannons. The world might even have a small "planetary navy" (typically imported fighters) for defense.

2) Occasional Contact. Such a world sees a trader from time to time and knows about the existence of an interstellar society, but does not have regular trade and is not integrated with the interstellar economy. Technology is mostly local, with a few imported items used by the rich or by elite military forces. However, the locals still know the general lines of how higher tech works and are unlikely to consider them to be "magical" even if the local TL is low.

3) Isolated. These worlds do not have interstellar contact - or have very rare and very low-profile contact. Technology is strictly local; the locals are unaware of the existence of an interstellar society or of its technology. If the local TL is 1-3, locals might believe that a higher-tech items is magical/divine/demonic. At TL 4, an educated person would recognize a machine for a machine; at TL5+ most locals would understand that a starship is a starship (or, at least, an airship) and that a Gauss Rifle is a gun.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

From MT-RM:

Technological Level: The degree of technological expertise, and thus the capabilities of local industry, depends greatly on the basic characteristics of a world. World Technological Levels may vary from zero to 20, more commonly ranging from 4 to 10. Higher numbers indicate greater capability.

The Tech Level of a world determines the type, quality, and sophistication of the products commonly available on a world in urban areas or near the starport. Large areas of the world away from the starport or away from large population centers may be one or even two Tech Levels lower.

Local citizenry will usually not be armed with weapons of a type which cannot be produced locally, but law enforcers or the military may be
Tech Level also indicates the general ability of local technology to repair or maintain items which have failed or malfunctioned.

​

​

​

​

​

​

 

[chshrkt]

Ahh,
Thanks for that quote from the referee's manual Andrew, I don't have that reference item yet. That is pretty much what my thinking has been all along, nice to know it is laid out like that somewhere.

 

[Icosahedron]

Technological Level: The degree of technological expertise, and thus the capabilities of local industry, depends greatly on the basic characteristics of a world. World Technological Levels may vary from zero to 20, more commonly ranging from 4 to 10. Higher numbers indicate greater capability.

The Tech Level of a world determines the type, quality, and sophistication of the products commonly available on a world in urban areas or near the starport. Large areas of the world away from the starport or away from large population centers may be one or even two Tech Levels lower.

Local citizenry will usually not be armed with weapons of a type which cannot be produced locally, but law enforcers or the military may be
Tech Level also indicates the general ability of local technology to repair or maintain items which have failed or malfunctioned.

The problem with this passage, as my highlights show, is that it has one foot in each camp. The second paragraph appears to relate to what is available there, whether locally produced or imported, but the first and third paragraphs seem to relate only to local production.

It doesn't really provide an answer to the question.
Unless you figure it gives two votes to one in favour of local production?

 

[mike wightman]

There's a rule somewhere that planetary navies can buy ships at any shipyard in their sector - and another rule burried somewhere about transportation costs and the like for bringing in parts from off world.

Let's not forget the duke of Regina equiping his household troops to TL 15 either.

I've always been of the view that TL is industrial base of the world, but there's likely to be a lot of off world tech for those that can afford it.

 

[BlackBat242]

I have always held that the TL was "the level of technology commonly found/used on a planet or station... with no regard to whether the tech is imported or locally produced.

After all, how many "worlds" are pure agricultural TL 12... a decent number, but I cannot see them producing their own equipment on the scale needed for the whole planet, especially if the population is below the 10 million mark... as many such are.

No, the TL is that which is available to most of the planet's inhabitants... by whatever means or from whatever source.

 

[chshrkt]

The problem with this passage, as my highlights show, is that it has one foot in each camp. The second paragraph appears to relate to what is available there, whether locally produced or imported, but the first and third paragraphs seem to relate only to local production.

I kind of looked at all three paragraphs as saying basically the same thing. The second paragraph, as you bolded, states that "products commonly available on a world" determine the tech level.

I think that statement jives with the other two because if an item has to be imported, I would posit that it will not be "commonly available".

Now, if you try to compare that guideline to imported items in the US, it of course falls flat on its face. But then, imported items in the US are not being shipped from light-years away either.

 

[Jame]

I generally say that TL is the most commonly available products made by local production. And part of that means, to me, that TL 12 agricultural worlds will have enough production to support itself if necessary, due to TL 12 production methods.

 

[dccarles]

Fortunately, there are plenty of historical real-world examples of technology transfer and trade. A good example is the Iroquois and Huron Indians up here in Canada. These low-tech people found themselves dependent upon high-tech imported goods, and fought for control of the beaver trade (beaver furs being technically a novelty good, as they couldn't be found anywhere in Europe.) The French and British, for their part, took sides and used the Hurons and Iroquois (respectively) to fight a proxy war.

The lesson here is that foreign imports do get around if the demand is high enough - and demand for muskets in 1650 in Canada was very, very high. I'd suggest, then, that a TL 7 agricultural world would import farm machinery from its TL 12 neighbor, even at exorbitant prices; any farmer who didn't would be crushed by the ones that did. Maintenance would be done on the world using imported parts. The TL 7 world might not have much use for PGMPs, though; assault rifles work perfectly well when there's no war on.

The TL 12 world, for its part, would want things the TL 7 world has. For one, it may not be able to produce its own food; the TL 7 world may have resources it doesn't; the TL 7 world will produce art and literature that might be popular; there's also the possibility of buying land outright. As I recall, Peter Minuit did exactly that...

--Devin

 

[Anthony]

Looking at real-world evidence will show that TLs, as present in Traveller, don't really exist. You do have primitive areas, but they don't have a consistent body of technology that's equivalent to something found 100 (or 500, or 5,000) years ago, they have a mix of technologies from different eras, including some stuff that's fully modern. Ignoring that for the moment, the problem with the 'production' theory is that Lo-pop worlds may not have meaningful manufacturing capability, but still have a TL rating.

If I'm trying to be realistic, I assume that 'TL' is a proxy for the wealth level of the society.

 

[daryen]

Within the context of the rules, my interpretation is this:

TL represents the TL of items most commonly found on the world. From a player's perspective, this means the TL of equipment they can buy and/or service.

If a world is not "Non-Industrial", then the TL also represents what the local industry can produce. These worlds actually *make* items at the stated TL.

If a world is "Non-Industrial", then the vast majority of items are imported. They can still service items at that TL (up to what the referee decides is reasonable) and can build limited numbers of items at that TL (again, the limit is up to referee decision), but the vast majority of items (and most "big-ticket" items) are imported from somewhere.

(Of course, this makes no sense from a high level, with such a wide disparity of TLs. But this is my interpretation. Please use if you find it useful.)

 

[chshrkt]

Ah, I like it Daryen.
A further refinement regarding the Non-Industrial tag that I had not been thinking of, being focused on the discussion regarding Ag worlds.

And for those TL 12 Ag worlds, I like Jame's clarification.

(scribble, scribble, scribble, as I blatently steal all these wonderful ideas...)

 

[Anthony]

Note that, fundamentally, UWPs are not administrative documents in the Imperium, they're numbers that are supposed to be useful to a game master and players, and in a game, the useful value is the one that tells you what you'll encounter, which is to say Use.

 

[jawillroy]

So how do you folks handle local tech level versus starport type?

Speaking in CT terms, you can get A-port worlds with tech levels that are technically below the level needed to produce a starship: say, tech 7, or I think (dependent on government?) even less.

Now, going by TCS, I'd be inclined to say that the world can't build starships, because of the tech restrictions, but that flies in the face of the LBB3 definition of an A-port. Right? Besides, going by TCS, if a tech 10 world with no starport at all wants to build a fleet, it can do so...

What do you-all do?

 

[jawillroy]

Occurs to me that it migh be pretty neat to have ships whose components were primarily native tech, but the parts that couldn't be done locally would have to be shipped in: I'm picturing a ship whose governing tech was 7, rotational gravity, Hydrogen/Oxygen-torch maneuver drives and all, but for the jump drives and power plant which would have to be imported.

Neat from a roleplay point of view, anyway. PITA to play, maybe. "how many turns did you say we can burn before we run out of fuel?"