Where is the "Coast Guard"

[Dr.Unpossible]

I've always wondered about this in the Traveller universe.

Where is the equivilent service that performs the role of the American/Canadian/British/Greek/whathaveyou CoastGuard?

Does the Imperial Navy handle in system customs and policing duties with smaller vessels. Or do they just lend assistance to the missing CoastGuard.

Does the ImpScoutServ perform this role along with its mapping and courier duties?

Is this strictly the role of System Governments (which I suspect it is) And the ImpNavy and ImpScoutServ just lend help upon request?

Does the Imperial Navy "contract" its services out to System Governments, offering its services in a "Customs/Policeing" role insystem for a increced Imperial Tithe? Sorta Kinda like the RCMP offers to municipalities in Canada. Where a city/town may raise its own police force. Or have the Federal Police force handle its LawEnfocement needs.

I'm guessing its the InsysGov's responsibility. But Again I dont think I've ever read anything in canon either way. Granted my memory is pretty poor, but I do own a good yard or so of Traveller material on my Gamming Bookshelf

-Chris McNeil

 

[Uncle Bob]

Local forces, SDBs and rescue ships from the planetary High Guard, and possibly TAV of the Midle Guard. AFAIK only red zones are patrolled by Imperial forces.

 

[Dr.Unpossible]

Thank's for the speedy response. High Guard is one of the books I am missing from my colection.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by cjmcneil:
I've always wondered about this in the Traveller universe.

Where is the equivilent service that performs the role of the American/Canadian/British/Greek/whathaveyou CoastGuard?

-Chris McNeil

I'm getting a foggy recollection of this being the province of the SA (Starport Authority) but don't recall any details or even if its from a canon source or not. Can anybody twig my grey cells?

 

[RabidVargr]

Coast guard?

We don need no stinkin' puddle pirates!

Arrrrrr

RV

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by thrash:
http://www.io.com/~thrash/imperium.html

"The Nature of the Imperium: a selection of quotations from canon."

Quite a bit of the substance is from High Guard; that may help fill the gap for now.

Hey, Chris! Long-time no see. Are you back or just visiting?

 

[graden1]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by cjmcneil:
I've always wondered about this in the Traveller universe.

Where is the equivilent service that performs the role of the American/Canadian/British/Greek/whathaveyou CoastGuard?

-Chris McNeil

I'm getting a foggy recollection of this being the province of the SA (Starport Authority) but don't recall any details or even if its from a canon source or not. Can anybody twig my grey cells? </font>[/QUOTE]The "Starports" sourcebook from gurps/Traveller has lots of material about the Starport Authority, among other things.

DGv2.0

 

[trader jim]

I like playing the "coast Guard"...get to shoot Smugglers and other nastys and screw up there day....but thats only when i want to play the "good" guys....

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by thrash:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tom Schoene:

Hey, Chris! Long-time no see. Are you back or just visiting?

I've been lurking over here since I left JTAS -- I guess Hunter et al. never got around to putting "games" in the header of their pages, so Webnonsense doesn't block it for me the way it does SJ Games.

I may lose this access in the near future as well, though, if things kick off and we go to minimize. </font>

There is apparently a workaround for JTAS, using the dotted quads instead of the regular address. (At least it's worked for some people). If you're interested, I'll see if I can scrounge it up. (drop me a line at taschoene@earthlink.net).

 

[Maspy]

Originally posted by RabidVargr:
Coast guard?

We don need no stinkin' puddle pirates!

Arrrrrr

RV

I guess in the Traveller Universe, Coasties wouldn't have to have a height minimum of 6 feet tall.

*ducks and hides*

 

[trader jim]

dont you know dynomite comes in small packages???

 

[trader jim]

i like small coast guard gun boats...fast and lethal....brownwater Navy...Vietnam...River war...
same principal, small SDBs...bim bam thank you mam!!!

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by thrash:
In MT and after, these relationships were deliberately altered. Subsector forces became Imperial naval reserves rather than distinct navies...

Like you I've always assumed that to be the case. But during a recent discussion I've been having on the JTAS boards, I had an... well, epiphany is too strong a word. Insight? Maybe just an interesting idea. Namely: It doesn't actually say so anywhere.

(Note: I still think the MT authors meant the IN reserve fleets to be the same thing as the CT subsector navies, mostly bacause otherwise the subsector navies are not mentioned at all, and they ought to be. But as you are wont to say, absence of evidence is not evidece of absence, so...)

What if the reserve fleets are not the same as the subsector navies? That would solve some of the problems we've had in the past, such as the problem of why subsector navies of such duchies as Mora, Trin, Glisten, Rhylanor, and every other duchy with a high-population TL 15 world would consist, as the reserve fleets are said to, of obsolescent IN hand-me-downs instead of cutting egde TL 15 ships built at the local shipyard.

You still have much larger forces than in early CT publications, but I don't see how you can realistically believe in the force levels established in FFW and elsewhere. And we get get a way to explain why the canonical MT fleet sizes appear to be smaller than the budgets allow. Because instead of 320 regular fleets and 320 reserve (ie. subsector) fleets to pay for, we get 320 regular IN fleets, 320 reserve IN fleets and ca. 300 subsector navies to pay for.

And finally we solve the problem you had with the concept of subsector navies being organized as IN reserves. With this notion they aren't.
Note that the reserve fleets would still be raised on a subsector by subsector basis (and would thus still rate the appelation 'colonial'), but they would be raised as IN reserves from the start. And the subsector navies would still be subject to being called up as support for the IN, but they would primarily be raised to solve their function as subsector navies.

Comments?


Hans

 

[shield]

Far Trader.

Its gurps that has the starport authority doing customs checks, search and rescue etc. with support from the local SDBs etc incase they actuallly find a pirate.

I think there will be 2 layers of customs, An imperial one, on entrey to SPA facilities that are imperial extra-teritoriality areas - at about law level 2 - "excuse me sir, anything to declare - nukes, bio weapons, slaves, and probably fruit and veg.

The second line would be when you left the imperial territory and you got the locals with their wierd laws- sorry sir "Veedback holocrystals have been banned and carry a 10yr prision sentance).

Cheers
Richard

 

[far-trader]

Thanks RichardP. I thought it was GURPS but as I don't own any I couldn't check. Not sure when (or where) I might have read it but that sounds like it.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by thrash:
It's an interesting idea -- though from my "laissez faire" Imperium standpoint, even worse than the current interpretation --

I think that's two different issues. Whether the Imperium has many thousands of ships of up to 1,000,000 T or thousands of ships of up to 100,000 T or hundred of ships of up to 5,000 T is a question of how many resources the Imperium spends on its fleets. But what i'm talking about is how those ships are organized, and at the level we're talking about here, it could fit your minimalist IN just as well as my somewhat bigger IN.

I think if you compare the original text in Book 5 (p. 2) with the revised version in the MegaTraveller Player's Handbook (Naval character generation; don't know the page offhand), you'll see that it has been deliberately altered word by word to eliminate any referece to subsector-level forces. The MT prohibition on transfers from the Imperial Navy Reserves to the regular Imperial Navy (ibid.) implies that the former is a second-class organization, though this might be more political than technological. Separate subsector forces are also conspicuously absent in Rebellion Sourcebook from the table of organization charts, which are comprehensive.

In short, I don't think there is an absence of evidence in this case: as you say, there are plenty of places where if separate subsector forces exist they should be mentioned, but aren't.

You're right, confound it. I checked last night. The substitution had escaped my notice.

That said, I don't think it would do any additional harm to insert subsector forces into the post-1987 structure. It would give the subsector duke a tool to police his demesne, which is currently lacking.

Right. It would IMO be a good way to reconcile the CT and MT description of Imperial forces. And as I propose to reduce the size of the IN forces by the amount I propose to spend on the subsector navies, it wouldn't affect the other issue.


Hans

 

[Liam Devlin]

RichardP is dead nail-on-the-head with the two layered SPA approach.

As for the three tiered approach, Hans, I likes it. My resolution to this resolved the matter this way.

Active Duty: IN (MT fleet numbers/ bases posted)numbered fleets, Sector fleets. (17 per Sector* (unless a fringe portion like Alpha Crucis rimwards of Old expanses, i.e.)

Reserves: IN (res) 1000series designated fleets. Also includes the mothballed fleets of Depots.

System Navies: Could be just SDB's to jump capable forces. Tech level for Jump fleets of course minimum of 9. Min Tech level for SDB's (STL ships) was IMTU, TL-8 (Mostly slow planetoid monitors/ geosynchronous orbiting stations).
These third level forces policed their own systems, and usually could be found at C-class+ port TL-8+ worlds of populations of 5 or more. Jump capability was usually based on world's tech level(zenith). Naturally Low pop worlds couldn't even afford to sustain/ maintain an SDB, and thus fell under a patrol circuit by this 3rd arm of interstellar law.(espcially with the UWP trade designator of O:grid (#)!

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Liam Devlin:
As for the three tiered approach, Hans, I likes it. My resolution to this resolved the matter this way.

Active Duty: IN (MT fleet numbers/ bases posted)numbered fleets, Sector fleets. (17 per Sector* (unless a fringe portion like Alpha Crucis rimwards of Old expanses, i.e.)

Reserves: IN (res) 1000series designated fleets. Also includes the mothballed fleets of Depots.

System Navies:

That's not quite what I meant. The problem is that both CT and MT have three-tiered systems. Unfortunately they are different three-tiered systems.

CT has:

* Imperial Navy
* Subsector navies (one per subsector)
* System navies

MT has:

* Imperial Navy regular fleets (320)
* Imperial Navy reserve fleets (One per regular fleet)
* System navies

Now, I'm not saying that you can't equally well have either system, but I am saying that they are different.

I've always assumed that the subsector navies were separate organizations, raised by the subsector dukes, subject to being called upon to assist the IN, sure, but raised by each duke as he sees fit. That all went out with the MT changes.

So what I'm proposing is to merge the two systems and have:

* Imperial Navy regular fleets
Imperial Navy reserve fleets (same organization, after all)
* Subsector navies (one per duchy)
* System navies


Hans

 

[Liam Devlin]

Well, by your terms above, I have the MT set up. Having been only a player in the CT era at that time, I was unaware of some of these details. I began referee Trav in MT, hence my outlook.

And unless the subsector has a homogenous baseline avg Stellar technology sustaining a Subsector Fleet from the various planets within, could be a raggle taggle bunch in some places- with sqdns of TL-9 ships, TL-A & B ships, and a superior sqdn (from the Cp world) of say, TL-D.
And this at the disposal of the subsector governor/ruler/ duke/ what have you-his sheriff/ policing force if the IN, and IN(r) are called away. Okies.

However, I beg to differ on two points (technology/ Politics of such a move):

The non-homgenous technology/ Jump performance, and these varied TL's the sqdns have may have difficulty training together, much less operating together, save for the Subsector overlord's B-day space parade.

Outside of their systems (personal fiefs, and O: Owned systems), it strikes me as a means to correct that which was made canon by MT. Are we reinventing the fleet system, or what here. If fer yer TU, OKies. I'd have reservations about giving the subsector Dukes more power than they already have in the MT-rebellion era.
YMMV.

 

[Dynamo]

Well Speaking as a Coastie, IMTU the Imperium has contracted out all the SAR Jobs and given the Customs duties to individual systems. Which is great fun in my campaign, I have a character who essentially works for the space equivelant of Sea Tow and since its a Union Job he gets lots of time off for special "Projects"
And contracting out SAR except in DIRE emergencies makes sense, I cant count how many times we had to tow Fishermen back to Rhode Island in a small storm just because they didn't feel like staying out any more. (Nothing bad about those guys they work really hard, but if you arnt having serious engine trouble, Medical emergencies or your boat isn't sinking you dont really need help) Still the Calamari was great!

Space SAR would be prohibitively expensive, hell it'd be a financial nightmare for the Imperium unless some sort of Rescue "fee" was charged. Private Salvage and Tow Companies prolly keep around a few "high G" rescue boats for system use and with a deployable Mass Driver to slingshot the salvage back to a central collection point. Thier MO would be to pick up the crew and shoot the salvage back to a shipyard. The Rescue boats could also carry temporary Damage Control Equipment Box patches or plasteel plating to seal hull breaches and an ownership beacon or tag to signify right of salvage.

The System Navy would provide its own Revenue Cutters to enforce local laws and Tarriffs and to prevent smuggling while the Imperial spaceport authority would only collect Imperial Tarriffs. The Imperium stays out of local Customs collection mainly because it stays out of local government (or at least seems too) as long as that local government pays its imperial revenue taxes and allows for Imperial control of Sector politics.