So Where Do the Express Boat Tenders Stay

[mike wightman]

The only "limitation" a Jump-4 Express Boat has is that the origin and destination systems need to be on the Express Boat Network and within 4 parsecs of each other ... so as to be recovered by an Express Tender after breakout from jump.

No, this is the bit you keep getting wrong or are interpreting to suit how you want things to work rather than how they do work in the OTU Third Imperium setting.

For the nth time - the xboats have to follow the lines. Oh, and they don't always make a jump 4, they often make jump2 and in a couple of cases only jump1.

By the way the TL progression for the Imperium is buried somewhere in MT material, page 34 MT Referee's Companion.

 

[Condottiere]

This sort of reminds me of our railways system.

We have regularly scheduled commuters, which stop at every station every one to three minutes, regionals, which stop only at important stations, and express, which varies, but tends to cut times in half.

So it may be that a bunch of ecks boats jump simultaneously, when one arrives, or have a schedule, just skip different systems.

 

[Spinward Flow]

But it's not about Jump-4. It's about policy.

For the nth time - the xboats have to follow the lines.

And that's a policy of Maximum Stupid™.

When I look at a Jump-4 range map for the Express Network, I see this.

When both of you look at a Jump-4 range map for the Express Network, you see ONLY this.

And there is nothing I can say or do or tell you that such a view of IISS operational policy and doctrine it intensely, demonstrably and OBVIOUSLY stupid on its face.

This move may be up to jump-4 in length, and thus intermediary systems along the jump can be bypassed.

So when moving from Strouden to Carey ... what are the intermediary systems along the 4 parsec route between Strouden and Carey when following the lines?

1. Shirene
2. Lunion
3. Resten
4. Capon

Can those intermediary systems along the route be bypassed?

This move may be up to jump-4 in length, and thus intermediary systems along the jump can be bypassed.

Correct answer: YES!
The XBoat move is Jump-4 to move 4 parsecs from Strouden to Carey ... and the intermediary systems along the jump route can be bypassed ... because Carey is within range of a Jump-4 move from Strouden to Carey ... bypassing the intermediary systems of Shirene, Lunion, Resten and Capon, as obviously demonstrated on the map.

The Express Network lines on the map do not represent "rails" through jump space.
Jump space has no rails, or roads, or "terrain/environment" features (unless otherwise specifically noted) that enforce jumping "this way but not that way" with a jump drive.

Believing that THIS ...

... is the limits of Jump-4 movement from Strouden is just flat out stupid to the point of being deliberately obtuse.

But it's not about Jump-4. It's about policy.

No.
Bad.
Dumb.
Self-GIMPED.
Stupid.
Wrong POLICY.

What you're saying is that an obviously BAD AND STUPID policy must be protected (at all costs!) for over 380+ years and never change for any reason whatsoever ... including the need to fight multiple wars(!), as per the Chonology from LBB S8 p10:

• 624-718 Express Boat Network founding and complete build out
• 979-986 Third Frontier War
• 990-1002 Solomani Rim War
• 1082-1084 Fourth Frontier War
• 1107-1109 Fifth Frontier War

I admire(?) your dedication to crippling the most important and high volume communications network used for both commercial and military communications throughout the Third Imperium ... but it really represents a blinkered "own goal" on the order of a Bad Move™ to believe that such an obviously stupid policy could survive contact with reality (and multiple wars!) unchanged for as long as the Express Network has been in operation (387 years since complete coverage of the Third Imperium by 1105). In order to subscribe to this view, you have to go All In on Maximum DERP and adamantly REFUSE to ever get any better at the ONE JOB imperative of the IISS Communications Office that operates and maintains the Express Network.

Note that from 624 to 718 is a span of 94 years ... meaning that during those 94 years the starships assigned to the initial build out of capacity would have needed to be replaced at least twice by 718, assuming a 40 year operational lifespan for the original XBoats and Tenders (40+40<94). That's a LOT of time to experiment with capability, capacity and policy (yes, policy!) during the build out of necessary capacity to cover the entire Third Imperium and sustain operations for CENTURIES.

BEFORE capacity is fully built out, I can believe that there is only sufficient XBoat capacity to achieve THIS during initial phases ...

... but then once FULL operational capacity is reached, you have THIS when fully established, maintained and operational ...

... and not to put too fine a point on things, the Spinward Marches has been a part of the Third Imperium since 718 (and before, actually), so there has been plenty of time (centuries in fact!) to completely build out the Express Network capacity even in a "fringe" sector such as the Spinward Marches.

 

[Spinward Flow]

This sort of reminds me of our railways system.

The problem with the railways analogy is that the infrastructure of rails determines where the trains can go (and when). Can't have 2 trains using the same track at the same time and all that.

This is where the "pony express" and railways analogies tend to break down ... because those systems have "stuff" in between two points.

Railways have rails, that are occupied by trains moving from place to place and the trains HAVE TO follow the rails (because bad things happen when they don't). There is NO CHOICE but to follow the rails wherever the rails go.

The pony express had to actually "travel" the terrestrial terrain, so there would be terrain features that limited the freedom of movement in any direction in 2D. Elevation changes, box canyons, rivers ... terrain features would partially determine "where you could go" (quickly) while riding a horse across the (substantially yet untamed) American West between pony express stations for a change of horse so as to keep on riding. The "lay of the land" had a tremendous influence over which routes were fast enough to be useful to the service.

Neither of those factors apply to how jump drives work.
Jump space is essentially "flat" in all directions (unless otherwise noted by unique "terrain" features which don't apply to this conversational topic or its use of maps) and the movement between star systems is functionally a kind of "interstellar teleport" from Here to There that takes 1 week to complete and allows the starship to "ignore" all of the 1+ parsecs of space in between the two star systems.

The very nature of jump drives and how they intrinsically work "omnidirectionally in 2D" up to their jump rating means that any sort of "running on rails" thinking is the wrong paradigm to assume in the first place.

The pony express analogy is one that is somewhat accessible, but also slightly misleading, because the pony express would have a single rider carry a message pouch changing horses for a fresh mount every 20 miles or so in order to sustain a rapid pace over long distances, with some riders riding for 20 hours at a stretch with multiple remounts along the way.

A better analogy for how the Express Network operates is more like a baton relay race, where the communications are the baton and the individual XBoats are the runners. The runners hand off the baton (communications) at each relay point in the chain to a fresh runner (new XBoat) which is waiting to receive the baton (communications) and "race" to the next relay point. The trick is that the running of these relays is NOT LINEAR. Instead, communications "radiate outwards" from each relay point to every other relay point within range (Jump-4) on the network (kind of like how the internet and TCP/IP communications work). That way, if any part of the Express Network goes "down" for whatever reason (war, sabotage, piracy, incompetence, etc.) then the network will automatically route around the "downed" relay point and the "packet" of communications will still reach its intended destination.

Without that kind of built in backup redundancy/resliency ... all it takes is ONE SYSTEM going offline along the network to completely scuff communications for a large swath of an entire sector due to a lack of backup/alternative route capacity for handing off the baton to a new runner (or train, if that's your preferred analogy). And the only way you can guard against those kinds of "service outages" in the Express Network is if the XBoats are NOT stuck "riding on rails" through jump space (which doesn't have rails in it!). Once you realize that jump drives are "interstellar teleport drives" that are omnidirectional in 2D and that there are no "tracks" in jump space to follow (just destinations to reach in a single jump) everything starts making a lot more sense.

 

[Silverhawk]

And that's a policy of Maximum Stupid™.

When I look at a Jump-4 range map for the Express Network, I see this.

When both of you look at a Jump-4 range map for the Express Network, you see ONLY this.

And there is nothing I can say or do or tell you that such a view of IISS operational policy and doctrine it intensely, demonstrably and OBVIOUSLY stupid on its face.



So when moving from Strouden to Carey ... what are the intermediary systems along the 4 parsec route between Strouden and Carey when following the lines?

1. Shirene
2. Lunion
3. Resten
4. Capon

Can those intermediary systems along the route be bypassed?

Correct answer: YES!
The XBoat move is Jump-4 to move 4 parsecs from Strouden to Carey ... and the intermediary systems along the jump route can be bypassed ... because Carey is within range of a Jump-4 move from Strouden to Carey ... bypassing the intermediary systems of Shirene, Lunion, Resten and Capon, as obviously demonstrated on the map.

The Express Network lines on the map do not represent "rails" through jump space.
Jump space has no rails, or roads, or "terrain/environment" features (unless otherwise specifically noted) that enforce jumping "this way but not that way" with a jump drive.

Believing that THIS ...

... is the limits of Jump-4 movement from Strouden is just flat out stupid to the point of being deliberately obtuse.

No.
Bad.
Dumb.
Self-GIMPED.
Stupid.
Wrong POLICY.

What you're saying is that an obviously BAD AND STUPID policy must be protected (at all costs!) for over 380+ years and never change for any reason whatsoever ... including the need to fight multiple wars(!), as per the Chonology from LBB S8 p10:

• 624-718 Express Boat Network founding and complete build out
• 979-986 Third Frontier War
• 990-1002 Solomani Rim War
• 1082-1084 Fourth Frontier War
• 1107-1109 Fifth Frontier War

I admire(?) your dedication to crippling the most important and high volume communications network used for both commercial and military communications throughout the Third Imperium ... but it really represents a blinkered "own goal" on the order of a Bad Move™ to believe that such an obviously stupid policy could survive contact with reality (and multiple wars!) unchanged for as long as the Express Network has been in operation (387 years since complete coverage of the Third Imperium by 1105). In order to subscribe to this view, you have to go All In on Maximum DERP and adamantly REFUSE to ever get any better at the ONE JOB imperative of the IISS Communications Office that operates and maintains the Express Network.

Note that from 624 to 718 is a span of 94 years ... meaning that during those 94 years the starships assigned to the initial build out of capacity would have needed to be replaced at least twice by 718, assuming a 40 year operational lifespan for the original XBoats and Tenders (40+40<94). That's a LOT of time to experiment with capability, capacity and policy (yes, policy!) during the build out of necessary capacity to cover the entire Third Imperium and sustain operations for CENTURIES.

BEFORE capacity is fully built out, I can believe that there is only sufficient XBoat capacity to achieve THIS during initial phases ...

... but then once FULL operational capacity is reached, you have THIS when fully established, maintained and operational ...

... and not to put too fine a point on things, the Spinward Marches has been a part of the Third Imperium since 718 (and before, actually), so there has been plenty of time (centuries in fact!) to completely build out the Express Network capacity even in a "fringe" sector such as the Spinward Marches.

Okay, sure in a perfect world that would be the case. However, having worked in government now for 17+ years (dealing in Transportation policy) I tell you that policy is set in a political environment that is in a lot of cases divorced from reality. Various stakeholders internal and external will have input that makes decisions that are not logical.

So yes there is nothing physically preventing a direct connection Strouden to Carey. There is a policy that prevents it. It doesn't make sense but if one is to be running the setting as the OTU then your stuck with it until and unless you have something happen that forces a change in policy. However, at that point it becomes an ATU rather than the OTU. I'm just saying.

Traveller isn't the only game I've played where the RAW have things that make no sense in terms of a logical real world. After seeing other players argue about it and killing the fun by derailing the session is part of the reason I don't use a setting provided as it is written giving me control of the logic.

 

[Spinward Flow]

However, having worked in government now for 17+ years (dealing in Transportation policy) I tell you that policy is set in a political environment that is in a lot of cases divorced from reality.

Do any of the policies you've worked on (or been subjected to) involve telportation of goods/people/communications from place to place, ignoring the distance in between point of origin and destination for loading and unloading?

Various stakeholders internal and external will have input that makes decisions that are not logical.

Wars tend to shake up and shake out those illogical policies once they become detrimental to national (planetary? interstellar? subsector? sector? imperial?) security on multiple fronts (economic, social, military, political). This is because wars tend to be the "ultimate stress test" of societies and political systems. There have been MULTIPLE wars since the establishment of the IISS Express Network by 1105 and the population (and wealth!) of the Third Imperium has increased dramatically from 718 to 1105 ... meaning that policies that might have worked just fine at initial build out should have been revised, updated and improved over the 387 years since the build out of the network was completed in 718. I mean ... there was plenty of time, opportunity and motivation to do so during those 387 years, right?

So yes there is nothing physically preventing a direct connection Strouden to Carey.

Correct. There is no technological limitation.

There is a policy that prevents it.

Wrong.
There are traitors and saboteurs to the core mission of the IISS Communications Office that prevent it.

It doesn't make sense

No ... it doesn't.

your stuck with it until and unless you have something happen that forces a change in policy.

• 624-718 Express Boat Network founding and complete build out
• 979-986 Third Frontier War
• 990-1002 Solomani Rim War
• 1082-1084 Fourth Frontier War
• 1107-1109 Fifth Frontier War

Ever met a war that DIDN'T force a change in pre-war policies involving transportation/logistics/communications?
How about 3-4 wars that didn't force a change in pre-war policies?

It doesn't make sense

And the problem is that IT SHOULD MAKE SENSE.

I refuse to believe that the IISS is that manifestly incompetent for centuries.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

 

[Silverhawk]

Do any of the policies you've worked on (or been subjected to) involve telportation of goods/people/communications from place to place, ignoring the distance in between point of origin and destination for loading and unloading?

Wars tend to shake up and shake out those illogical policies once they become detrimental to national (planetary? interstellar? subsector? sector? imperial?) security on multiple fronts (economic, social, military, political). This is because wars tend to be the "ultimate stress test" of societies and political systems. There have been MULTIPLE wars since the establishment of the IISS Express Network by 1105 and the population (and wealth!) of the Third Imperium has increased dramatically from 718 to 1105 ... meaning that policies that might have worked just fine at initial build out should have been revised, updated and improved over the 387 years since the build out of the network was completed in 718. I mean ... there was plenty of time, opportunity and motivation to do so during those 387 years, right?

Correct. There is no technological limitation.


Wrong.
There are traitors and saboteurs to the core mission of the IISS Communications Office that prevent it.

No ... it doesn't.

• 624-718 Express Boat Network founding and complete build out
• 979-986 Third Frontier War
• 990-1002 Solomani Rim War
• 1082-1084 Fourth Frontier War
• 1107-1109 Fifth Frontier War

Ever met a war that DIDN'T force a change in pre-war policies involving transportation/logistics/communications?
How about 3-4 wars that didn't force a change in pre-war policies?

And the problem is that IT SHOULD MAKE SENSE.

I refuse to believe that the IISS is that manifestly incompetent for centuries.

Your mileage may vary, of course.

I agree that one of the frontier wars listed particularly the fourth, should have forced a change. But the trouble with bureaucracy is that there is an attitude of we've always done it this way. I've been in discussions with stakeholders where we are asking the question 'Why do you do move this rail car to this location and not deliver it right away?' and a lot of times the answer is 'We've always done it this way'. But that way isn't really good policy now and to get change to stick means sometimes going to the top levels of corporate management and forcing change.

That gets one thinking that change of routes might have occurred if Dulinor had been successful in seizing the throne.

 

[whartung]

What you're saying is that an obviously BAD AND STUPID policy must be protected (at all costs!) for over 380+ years and never change for any reason whatsoever ... including the need to fight multiple wars(!), as per the Chonology from LBB S8 p10:

Yes.

XBoats follow routes for the same reason that damsels in horror movies don't turn on the bedroom lights. The writer/director says "Don't do that".

It's NOT YOUR STORY. (And, for those coming late, it IS just a "story"-- we really aren't suppressed Solomani...)

You can un-stupid the XBoat policy in YTU. If you want to change the OTU, you need to talk to that Marc guy or that Matt guy.

Until then, messaging from Strouden to Carey will be delayed.

AUTOPILOT:
There has been a delay. The passengers are kept in temporary suspended animation for their comfort and convenience. Coffee and biscuits are served every ten years, after which passengers are returned to suspended animation for their comfort and convenience. Departure will take place when flight stores are complete. We apologise for the delay.

FORD:
Delay? Have you seen the world outside this ship? It’s a wasteland. A desert. Civilisation’s been and gone. It’s over. There are no lemon-soaked paper napkins on the way from anywhere.

AUTOPILOT:
The statistical likelihood is that other civilisations will arise. There will one day be lemon-soaked paper napkins. ‘Till then, there will be a short delay. Please return to your seats.

 

[mike wightman]

It's not the raw that dictates the xboat routes it is the setting fluff.

When the xboat network was established the routes were mapped on top of the most profitable megacorp trade lanes, and setting fluff also indicates that xboat routes can be changed over time, and new routes designated.

But the fact remains that within the setting xboats have to follow the lines on the map.

Now a local duke, rich world or even a subsector level corporation may establish its own communication system - the Imperium is supposed to be capitalist after all. But rival nobles, rival corporations, the megacorporation or even the Imperial government may throw a spanner in the works from time to time so that their secret system remains dominant.

 

[Spinward Flow]

Set ludicrous to maximum.

Again, I refuse to believe that the IISS Communications Office is that willfully incompetent on a self-perpetuating basis.

 

[whartung]

Set ludicrous to maximum.

Dunno why you're fixated on this singular topic. Traveller and the 3I are gorged with incidents of ludiocrity.

Feel free to tell you players when it takes so many more weeks to get to Carey that the "IISS is stupid". Heck, I do that today with many local and government agencies as it is!

Or, play YTU different.

 

[mike wightman]

Set ludicrous to maximum.

Again, I refuse to believe that the IISS Communications Office is that willfully incompetent on a self-perpetuating basis.

They are not.
They are obeying the instructions of their masters - the Emperor and his noble 'made men' and the megacorporations.
They don't want competition for their cash cows so the status quo is maintained - you think the Imperium is about the betterment of the common citizen?

 

[Silverhawk]

Dunno why you're fixated on this singular topic. Traveller and the 3I are gorged with incidents of ludiocrity.

Feel free to tell you players when it takes so many more weeks to get to Carey that the "IISS is stupid". Heck, I do that today with many local and government agencies as it is!

Or, play YTU different.

The topic has become the Holy Grail.

I'm putting on the Dr Henry Jones (Senior) hat. "Let it go Indiana."

 

[Condottiere]

Speaking canonically and politically, I think the only other interstellar polity that has an ecks boat network is the Confederation, which they inherited from the Imperium.

It's run by the Confederation Navy, and apparently, it's being deliberately allowed to deteriorate.

 

[whartung]

I'm putting on the Dr Henry Jones (Senior) hat. "Let it go Indiana."

"Count to ten.....in Greek."

 

[BRJN]

There is only 1 X-boat route from Earth towards the Imperial Core. Don't think the Solomani have never noticed.

Trying to get news of Strephon's assassination to places like Depot / Daibei, I had to send X-boats "across the lines" several times. The Rebellion Sourcebook map shows what would happen if a J-6 set out on a straight line to a frontier destination, not checking for mechanical support at each jump, and always picked a J-6 destination.

The answer to the problem is that SolSec has moles in the IISS bureau that decides X-boat routes - especially for the Domain of Sol, but not limited to there.

 

[robject]

While you have an expectation of how it "ought" to work, for whatever reason, after a 1000 years of Imperial rule and design, it DOES NOT work that way.

Well, I detect Optimization at work... and I feel that the rules do not favor Optimization.

Rather, if it looks like a bunch of line segments, and Pony Express is invoked in the texts, then it behaves just that way.

And my players can surmise about why.

 

[Spinward Flow]

The answer to the problem is that SolSec has moles in the IISS bureau that decides X-boat routes - especially for the Domain of Sol, but not limited to there.

More traitors and saboteurs detected.
There sure seem to be a lot of them for some reason. I wonder why ...

 

[Deldarius]

Grav_Moped​

Maybe they do, and it doesn't show on the network because it doesn't require XBoats.

This.

The map is just for the Xboat routes. The Xboats are the arteries, Type S are the veins and capillaries. If there is a need that exceeds the capacity of the Type S a new artery may be considered (no guarantee it will happen).

 

[Condottiere]

I thought post delivery by courier was as and when, or maybe once a month to keep the system connected to the rest of the Impeium.