What were the problems with MT?
- Thread starter Blue Ghost
- Start date
I own T20 but am ignorant of a lot of the content (don't have the other stuff to help it make sense and have given up until I get the Traveller's Guidebook). But, your comments make sense to me.
Though I dislike feats precisely because they are very focused and there is sort of an implication that someone without the feat couldn't do the thing.
For instance, Bob may be a Computer Whiz. As a programmer myself, I can envision easily 30 computer-related feats (little specializations, etc). But most good programmers could pick them up quickly and might forget them quickly if not using them (skills in the real world often work like that). I'm not sure the game supports that. And it gets administrivia-heavy when your character has 15 skills and 28 feats as time passes.... Oh wait, this combat round I use the 'Jump High', 'Trick Shot' and 'Competition Yodelling' feats....
I own T20 but am ignorant of a lot of the content (don't have the other stuff to help it make sense and have given up until I get the Traveller's Guidebook). But, your comments make sense to me.
Though I dislike feats precisely because they are very focused and there is sort of an implication that someone without the feat couldn't do the thing.
For instance, Bob may be a Computer Whiz. As a programmer myself, I can envision easily 30 computer-related feats (little specializations, etc). But most good programmers could pick them up quickly and might forget them quickly if not using them (skills in the real world often work like that). I'm not sure the game supports that. And it gets administrivia-heavy when your character has 15 skills and 28 feats as time passes.... Oh wait, this combat round I use the 'Jump High', 'Trick Shot' and 'Competition Yodelling' feats....
I own T20 but am ignorant of a lot of the content (don't have the other stuff to help it make sense and have given up until I get the Traveller's Guidebook). But, your comments make sense to me.
Though I dislike feats precisely because they are very focused and there is sort of an implication that someone without the feat couldn't do the thing.
For instance, Bob may be a Computer Whiz. As a programmer myself, I can envision easily 30 computer-related feats (little specializations, etc). But most good programmers could pick them up quickly and might forget them quickly if not using them (skills in the real world often work like that). I'm not sure the game supports that. And it gets administrivia-heavy when your character has 15 skills and 28 feats as time passes.... Oh wait, this combat round I use the 'Jump High', 'Trick Shot' and 'Competition Yodelling' feats....
One man's complexity is another man's beauty.
I say this because if you want to achieve a certain level of detailed resolution, the complexity comes with it. Some don't like this, some do. Right now I'm tinkering with the MT rules for building sailing vessels and trying to examine options to make my boats a wee bit faster, a wee bit lighter, and how to run sailing races (for my nobles and for low tech navies). Without a high resolution to the construction system, I'd be stuck.
The errata was, OTOH, an unvarnished S.O.B.
Whereas, as someone who has worked on boats, in the army (things like GSR, TI, etc) and as a programmer with a lot of different military and civilian detectors, transducers, emitters, etc, I'd have to say that sensors was a *very lacking* thing in the original game and a wonderful addition.
You can't do 'subs in space' style combat (find the enemy, THEN you can shoot him) very well without it. And a good sensor operator should be the key member of any merchant or military crew, IMO. (After, perhaps, the engineer). Like commo, it was a skill insufficiently present in CT.
And CT acknowledged few, if any, skill crossovers and groupings, a sad lacking. And Larsen has alluded to the pages of modifiers....
My biggest DGP gripe was the Travellers Digest. A few real gems (equipment, a few generic adventures) and one long painful marquis adventure that wasn't much use if you didn't want to use Akidda, Dur, Ayebee, and Dr. Krenstein. I really wish they'd just done more excellent stand alone adventures or a more generic set of campaign seeds. Or more equipment sheets.
One man's complexity is another man's beauty.
I say this because if you want to achieve a certain level of detailed resolution, the complexity comes with it. Some don't like this, some do. Right now I'm tinkering with the MT rules for building sailing vessels and trying to examine options to make my boats a wee bit faster, a wee bit lighter, and how to run sailing races (for my nobles and for low tech navies). Without a high resolution to the construction system, I'd be stuck.
The errata was, OTOH, an unvarnished S.O.B.
Whereas, as someone who has worked on boats, in the army (things like GSR, TI, etc) and as a programmer with a lot of different military and civilian detectors, transducers, emitters, etc, I'd have to say that sensors was a *very lacking* thing in the original game and a wonderful addition.
You can't do 'subs in space' style combat (find the enemy, THEN you can shoot him) very well without it. And a good sensor operator should be the key member of any merchant or military crew, IMO. (After, perhaps, the engineer). Like commo, it was a skill insufficiently present in CT.
And CT acknowledged few, if any, skill crossovers and groupings, a sad lacking. And Larsen has alluded to the pages of modifiers....
My biggest DGP gripe was the Travellers Digest. A few real gems (equipment, a few generic adventures) and one long painful marquis adventure that wasn't much use if you didn't want to use Akidda, Dur, Ayebee, and Dr. Krenstein. I really wish they'd just done more excellent stand alone adventures or a more generic set of campaign seeds. Or more equipment sheets.
One man's complexity is another man's beauty.
I say this because if you want to achieve a certain level of detailed resolution, the complexity comes with it. Some don't like this, some do. Right now I'm tinkering with the MT rules for building sailing vessels and trying to examine options to make my boats a wee bit faster, a wee bit lighter, and how to run sailing races (for my nobles and for low tech navies). Without a high resolution to the construction system, I'd be stuck.
The errata was, OTOH, an unvarnished S.O.B.
Whereas, as someone who has worked on boats, in the army (things like GSR, TI, etc) and as a programmer with a lot of different military and civilian detectors, transducers, emitters, etc, I'd have to say that sensors was a *very lacking* thing in the original game and a wonderful addition.
You can't do 'subs in space' style combat (find the enemy, THEN you can shoot him) very well without it. And a good sensor operator should be the key member of any merchant or military crew, IMO. (After, perhaps, the engineer). Like commo, it was a skill insufficiently present in CT.
And CT acknowledged few, if any, skill crossovers and groupings, a sad lacking. And Larsen has alluded to the pages of modifiers....
My biggest DGP gripe was the Travellers Digest. A few real gems (equipment, a few generic adventures) and one long painful marquis adventure that wasn't much use if you didn't want to use Akidda, Dur, Ayebee, and Dr. Krenstein. I really wish they'd just done more excellent stand alone adventures or a more generic set of campaign seeds. Or more equipment sheets.
kaladorn wrote in reference to Mr. Agent's suggestion about gas leaks, brokne light bulbs, and no sense of smell:
"Precisely. As they say in HERO (Champions) games system - if it isn't a disad that will be played, it isn't worth points. So it is up to the ref to bring it into play every so often."
Tom,
'Zactly but the GM is also saddled with 4 - 6 PCs each with 40 points in disads and another 5 points in quirks. There can easily be ten 'odd' things the GM needs to remember about each PC. If the PCs don't co-operate, they'll slide right through.
The idea behind disads and quirks is a good one, just like the idea behind feats I suppose; Provide players with hooks they can personalize their charecters with. Trouble is that no one really likes to play charecter's that are less than competent in any given situation. Having to bug out during a lab break-in after the terrarium is knocked over because of that quirk you took to boost your pistol skills; afraid of small turtles, can grate on some folks.
One of my favorite CT charecters* had an INT stat of 4 and an EDU stats of 6; getting up to ten skill points even in CT's Rogue chargen didn't take too long. He was strong, fast, and dexterious though (everything I'm not) and I played him as bit of muscle for hire. He was trusting and paranoid, held many grudges, and was just smart enough to know he was stupid. He was fun to play, but I'm sure I slipped out of charecter and into some smarts more often than not.
Sincerely,
Larsen
* - He's the one who died at the hands of the mob on Dinomn. I mentioned him in the 'silly RPG deaths' thread.
"Precisely. As they say in HERO (Champions) games system - if it isn't a disad that will be played, it isn't worth points. So it is up to the ref to bring it into play every so often."
Tom,
'Zactly but the GM is also saddled with 4 - 6 PCs each with 40 points in disads and another 5 points in quirks. There can easily be ten 'odd' things the GM needs to remember about each PC. If the PCs don't co-operate, they'll slide right through.
The idea behind disads and quirks is a good one, just like the idea behind feats I suppose; Provide players with hooks they can personalize their charecters with. Trouble is that no one really likes to play charecter's that are less than competent in any given situation. Having to bug out during a lab break-in after the terrarium is knocked over because of that quirk you took to boost your pistol skills; afraid of small turtles, can grate on some folks.
One of my favorite CT charecters* had an INT stat of 4 and an EDU stats of 6; getting up to ten skill points even in CT's Rogue chargen didn't take too long. He was strong, fast, and dexterious though (everything I'm not) and I played him as bit of muscle for hire. He was trusting and paranoid, held many grudges, and was just smart enough to know he was stupid. He was fun to play, but I'm sure I slipped out of charecter and into some smarts more often than not.
Sincerely,
Larsen
* - He's the one who died at the hands of the mob on Dinomn. I mentioned him in the 'silly RPG deaths' thread.
kaladorn wrote in reference to Mr. Agent's suggestion about gas leaks, brokne light bulbs, and no sense of smell:
"Precisely. As they say in HERO (Champions) games system - if it isn't a disad that will be played, it isn't worth points. So it is up to the ref to bring it into play every so often."
Tom,
'Zactly but the GM is also saddled with 4 - 6 PCs each with 40 points in disads and another 5 points in quirks. There can easily be ten 'odd' things the GM needs to remember about each PC. If the PCs don't co-operate, they'll slide right through.
The idea behind disads and quirks is a good one, just like the idea behind feats I suppose; Provide players with hooks they can personalize their charecters with. Trouble is that no one really likes to play charecter's that are less than competent in any given situation. Having to bug out during a lab break-in after the terrarium is knocked over because of that quirk you took to boost your pistol skills; afraid of small turtles, can grate on some folks.
One of my favorite CT charecters* had an INT stat of 4 and an EDU stats of 6; getting up to ten skill points even in CT's Rogue chargen didn't take too long. He was strong, fast, and dexterious though (everything I'm not) and I played him as bit of muscle for hire. He was trusting and paranoid, held many grudges, and was just smart enough to know he was stupid. He was fun to play, but I'm sure I slipped out of charecter and into some smarts more often than not.
Sincerely,
Larsen
* - He's the one who died at the hands of the mob on Dinomn. I mentioned him in the 'silly RPG deaths' thread.
"Precisely. As they say in HERO (Champions) games system - if it isn't a disad that will be played, it isn't worth points. So it is up to the ref to bring it into play every so often."
Tom,
'Zactly but the GM is also saddled with 4 - 6 PCs each with 40 points in disads and another 5 points in quirks. There can easily be ten 'odd' things the GM needs to remember about each PC. If the PCs don't co-operate, they'll slide right through.
The idea behind disads and quirks is a good one, just like the idea behind feats I suppose; Provide players with hooks they can personalize their charecters with. Trouble is that no one really likes to play charecter's that are less than competent in any given situation. Having to bug out during a lab break-in after the terrarium is knocked over because of that quirk you took to boost your pistol skills; afraid of small turtles, can grate on some folks.
One of my favorite CT charecters* had an INT stat of 4 and an EDU stats of 6; getting up to ten skill points even in CT's Rogue chargen didn't take too long. He was strong, fast, and dexterious though (everything I'm not) and I played him as bit of muscle for hire. He was trusting and paranoid, held many grudges, and was just smart enough to know he was stupid. He was fun to play, but I'm sure I slipped out of charecter and into some smarts more often than not.
Sincerely,
Larsen
* - He's the one who died at the hands of the mob on Dinomn. I mentioned him in the 'silly RPG deaths' thread.
kaladorn wrote in reference to Mr. Agent's suggestion about gas leaks, brokne light bulbs, and no sense of smell:
"Precisely. As they say in HERO (Champions) games system - if it isn't a disad that will be played, it isn't worth points. So it is up to the ref to bring it into play every so often."
Tom,
'Zactly but the GM is also saddled with 4 - 6 PCs each with 40 points in disads and another 5 points in quirks. There can easily be ten 'odd' things the GM needs to remember about each PC. If the PCs don't co-operate, they'll slide right through.
The idea behind disads and quirks is a good one, just like the idea behind feats I suppose; Provide players with hooks they can personalize their charecters with. Trouble is that no one really likes to play charecter's that are less than competent in any given situation. Having to bug out during a lab break-in after the terrarium is knocked over because of that quirk you took to boost your pistol skills; afraid of small turtles, can grate on some folks.
One of my favorite CT charecters* had an INT stat of 4 and an EDU stats of 6; getting up to ten skill points even in CT's Rogue chargen didn't take too long. He was strong, fast, and dexterious though (everything I'm not) and I played him as bit of muscle for hire. He was trusting and paranoid, held many grudges, and was just smart enough to know he was stupid. He was fun to play, but I'm sure I slipped out of charecter and into some smarts more often than not.
Sincerely,
Larsen
* - He's the one who died at the hands of the mob on Dinomn. I mentioned him in the 'silly RPG deaths' thread.
"Precisely. As they say in HERO (Champions) games system - if it isn't a disad that will be played, it isn't worth points. So it is up to the ref to bring it into play every so often."
Tom,
'Zactly but the GM is also saddled with 4 - 6 PCs each with 40 points in disads and another 5 points in quirks. There can easily be ten 'odd' things the GM needs to remember about each PC. If the PCs don't co-operate, they'll slide right through.
The idea behind disads and quirks is a good one, just like the idea behind feats I suppose; Provide players with hooks they can personalize their charecters with. Trouble is that no one really likes to play charecter's that are less than competent in any given situation. Having to bug out during a lab break-in after the terrarium is knocked over because of that quirk you took to boost your pistol skills; afraid of small turtles, can grate on some folks.
One of my favorite CT charecters* had an INT stat of 4 and an EDU stats of 6; getting up to ten skill points even in CT's Rogue chargen didn't take too long. He was strong, fast, and dexterious though (everything I'm not) and I played him as bit of muscle for hire. He was trusting and paranoid, held many grudges, and was just smart enough to know he was stupid. He was fun to play, but I'm sure I slipped out of charecter and into some smarts more often than not.
Sincerely,
Larsen
* - He's the one who died at the hands of the mob on Dinomn. I mentioned him in the 'silly RPG deaths' thread.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
Blast! My 8 or less Dependent NPC got killed... I guess I'll have to roll 11 or less to see if I go Berserk... I should have been able to smell that coming...
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
Blast! My 8 or less Dependent NPC got killed... I guess I'll have to roll 11 or less to see if I go Berserk... I should have been able to smell that coming...
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
Blast! My 8 or less Dependent NPC got killed... I guess I'll have to roll 11 or less to see if I go Berserk... I should have been able to smell that coming...
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
That's why it's the player's job to roleplay the ads/disads that his character has, not the GM's job to remember them. Besides, if the GM *does* need to know them then he can always just write them down. Most ads/disads are pretty obvious from their names, you don't need to look everything up assuming you have a good grasp of the English language.
If you're bugging out over it, it's a phobia, which is a full on disadvantage. The point of quirks is that they don't affect the character strongly. 'Insists on smoking a menthol cigarette when he wakes up' is a quirk. 'Must smoke 20 methol cigarrettes a day' is an Addiction disadvantage.
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
That's why it's the player's job to roleplay the ads/disads that his character has, not the GM's job to remember them. Besides, if the GM *does* need to know them then he can always just write them down. Most ads/disads are pretty obvious from their names, you don't need to look everything up assuming you have a good grasp of the English language.
If you're bugging out over it, it's a phobia, which is a full on disadvantage. The point of quirks is that they don't affect the character strongly. 'Insists on smoking a menthol cigarette when he wakes up' is a quirk. 'Must smoke 20 methol cigarrettes a day' is an Addiction disadvantage.
E
EvilDrGanymede
Guest
That's why it's the player's job to roleplay the ads/disads that his character has, not the GM's job to remember them. Besides, if the GM *does* need to know them then he can always just write them down. Most ads/disads are pretty obvious from their names, you don't need to look everything up assuming you have a good grasp of the English language.
If you're bugging out over it, it's a phobia, which is a full on disadvantage. The point of quirks is that they don't affect the character strongly. 'Insists on smoking a menthol cigarette when he wakes up' is a quirk. 'Must smoke 20 methol cigarrettes a day' is an Addiction disadvantage.
That's not just 'Blast!' but 'Firk! Ding! Blast!'
DNPC is like tying a knot around your neck and handing the ref the rope. It is the *least favorite* disad I can think of, because it often seems to get used out of all proportion.
Aside:
Larsen is right in that any game (HERO, GURPS, other) that has a lot of disad/ads means the GM has to at least know what they are and the players will tend to remind him of the ads and conveniently forget to mention the disads. Keeping track of too many (or even inflicting too many) can be quite a pain for the GM. As a HERO example, if everyone in the party has 2-3 different Hunted disads, then the GM could quite reasonably spend every adventure making the party flee from someone's Hunters. But that gets dull quick. The trick becomes one of rotating who you pick on for disads but in making sure disads come out...
That's not just 'Blast!' but 'Firk! Ding! Blast!'
DNPC is like tying a knot around your neck and handing the ref the rope. It is the *least favorite* disad I can think of, because it often seems to get used out of all proportion.
Aside:
Larsen is right in that any game (HERO, GURPS, other) that has a lot of disad/ads means the GM has to at least know what they are and the players will tend to remind him of the ads and conveniently forget to mention the disads. Keeping track of too many (or even inflicting too many) can be quite a pain for the GM. As a HERO example, if everyone in the party has 2-3 different Hunted disads, then the GM could quite reasonably spend every adventure making the party flee from someone's Hunters. But that gets dull quick. The trick becomes one of rotating who you pick on for disads but in making sure disads come out...
