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What was wrong with CT?

I'd be happy with a simple, modular, design system in the core rules, providing that there is a FF&S3 written first to design said modules.
The full version could then be released, which should include all the options that TNE's next volume in the FF&S series (that was never written) was going to, i.e.
...but look for treatments of additional subjects ("wet" ships, robots, disintegrators, neural weapons, primitive transport, genetic engineering, jump projectors, etc.) in... ... a single follow on volume.
 
Okay, I'm once again wrestling with the d6-versus-something-else systems.

What, exactly, is the relationship between game engines/rule systems and the type and number of dice being used?

Why do gamers tend to prefer d100, or 2d10, or d20, rather than a variable handful of d6's? And at what point does a game become too heavy to be playable? Anyone out there play SpaceMaster? It's attenutated to people who love tables. Anyone play CT? It's attenuated to people who want simple, playable rules.

Well, what are the T5 rules for? More people prefer CT-style simplicity, right? But what's the best balance for a game engine?

I'm feeling a little lost here. Can anyone shed some light on the situation in general, as a whole?
 
Originally posted by robject:
Anyone out there play SpaceMaster? It's attenutated to people who love tables. Anyone play CT? It's attenuated to people who want simple, playable rules.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Montoya

Seriously, to you mean "aimed"? "Attenuated" means something else...
 
Okay, I'm once again wrestling with the d6-versus-something-else systems.
the relationship between dice and system is one of distinction vs simplicity. 2d6 is limited in its possibilities, and also each rolled value has a different probability of occurance. d20 and d100 allow for many more results, and each result is equally likely so it's easier to understand.

if you want many or unlimited possibilities, and you don't want to struggle with probabilities, d20 or d100 is the way to go. d20 and d100 also allow for limitless tweaking. one of the problems with it is that you then have to take all possible tweaks into account (I'm not the first one to say that).

if you as a referee use the dice to help you, rather than let the dice tell you what to do, 2d6 is quite adequate for most situations. one of the problems is that it can be quite coarse.

the game engine becomes too heavy when the referee and players say it does. the balance is entirely up to you. if you and your players like simulations and spending half an hour of game time precisely applying results charts to account for every possibility, then go for it. if you and your players like to just roll the dice and keep the story moving, go for it. if you and your players like some half-way point, or a case-by-case mixture of the two, go for it.
 
Thank you, flykiller. That's a good, general picture, and is helping me restore harmony to my Traveller thinking.
 
My biggest problems with CT are:
1) No task system
2) no Experience system
3) no integration between personal and starship combat scales*
4) no vehicular combat rules.*

all of these were solved with MT. (which had some other issues...) MT was, unfortunately, released in playtest/draft quality.

* Striker does not count, as I couldn't buy striker locally when CT was available... but striker did have integrations for vehicular, personal, and to a limited extent, starship scale integration.
 
1) This complaint always bemuses me. The task system was implicit in the character generation and combat system. The referee gives you a target number and you add any bonuses he allows you to the 2d6 role. MT just codified and confused it.("It is a Difficult Task", "Does that mean roll 10+? Just say 10+!"

2)In my opinion the lack of an experience system was the best feature of Traveller. It ensured that gaming was story-driven and repelled munchkins and power-gamers.

3-4) I mail-ordered Striker and it immediately replaced Book 1 combat. Sorry you missed it.
 
...and my Cr.02 (or whatever)

2) The experience system was there (well maybe not in the LBBs, I don't recall, but it was in The Traveller Book). If you applied yourself you could slowy acquire new skills and raise some attributes. It was a pretty realistic method, and did indeed steer well clear of any power-gaming issues. It gave me something to work hard towards and when finally achieved was all the sweeter for it.
 
There was also a CT vehicle combat system tagged onto the end of a couple of adventures in JTAS issues. It was based on AHL IIRC and was similar to what would become the Striker rules.
 
Back to the subject of dice used, I've noticed playing T20 with the d20 mechanic that you are at the mercy of random chance much more in this system.
In the CT system average rolls are more common.

When designing the system for my current rpg I would have been happy to use a 2d6, or better yet 3d6 mechanic. My players, though, do not like using d6s for the core task resolution system or for combat. I can not explain why, they just don't like it???
Give them funny shaped dice and they are happy ;)
Solution - 2d10 added together.
This allows d20 stuff to still be used if you want, with all the funny sided dice for damage etc. that they like to roll.

I think CT, and D&D, started with d6 because of their wargame/boardgame heritage. D%D broke away from this with polyhedral diceand the majority of rpgs on the market now use some form of polyhedral.

Heresy it may be, but I think MWM will sell more copies of T5 if it includes the use of poyhedral dice in some way.
 
Well Sigg, the Polyhedrals will be more apt to buy it, for sure. This is close to a Holy War issue to them.
 
Uncle Bob:

Not all rolls in CT were 2d6 roll high. Some were roll attribute or less. a few items were "Total elligble attribute and exceed total", and a few more were "When Total Str of X climbs, ladder breaks". Hence, NO implicit task system. Several extractable modes of operation. lots of skill resolution rules. Not all the 2d6 roll high were 8+, either. And not all were add skill. some were DM+x if skill level y+.

2d6+skill roll high was the prevalent mode.

Like so many games of its era (late 70's and early 80's), there was little consistancy in modes of resolving mechanical issues outside of combat, at least in published adventures.

Striker was never integrated. And besides, Striker lacks CG, so how'd you make new characters that without bk 1? ;)

Seriously, though, the core rules lacked an experience system. The rules in TTB applied only to attributes, or going on sabbatical for 1 skill level after 4 years out of play. (It was my primary ruleset for many years.)

Character growth was one of the biggest complaints for LONG-TERM CAMPIAGNS. Many Refs just had you roll every four years on the relevant skill table... My GM had you roll 3d for int or less to gain one per year.

CT was, and is, a framework, an incomplete (by modern standards) system. By 1977 standards, it was remarkably complete. Times, tastes and audiences change.

even in the early 80's, the concept on a single unifying mechanic was a "New Thing". With such gaames as C&S having three different resolution mechanics for non-combat skills. Special case rules were the norm. Now, most games use special case rules only rarely, instead relying upon a unified mechanic. In fact, I can only think of one early 80's game with an implicit task system with multiple, discrete levels of difficulty: The Fantasy Trip.

I always prefered an explicit unified mechanic.

For me, the concept of a task system in T2K 1E (half, normal or double) was an immmediate "WOW". 2300 was a major plus, as was the DGP task system... discrete levels of difficulty.
 
I mail-ordered Striker and it immediately replaced Book 1 combat.
To be honest, we used AHL rules before Striker came out.

Character growth? Three-book was pretty poor, but Book 4 added the "instructor" skill. Besides, in the RW you don't gain skills from success, you get them from hard practice and training. We took a number of "downtimes" when the party split up to improve skills.
 
Originally posted by Ron:
However, it would be naive not to recognise that there is room for a lot of improvement in CT.
</font>
  • Unified Task System: CT's skill system looks like a list of exception as there is no unified concept underlying the skills</font>
  • Combat: CT combat relies in a table, which is a poor design, MT and T4 relies in a superior prenetration rules, inspired by Striker. I think T4 is the better system, as it is simplier.</font>
  • Starship combat: Completely unrelated to the personal combat system. Unification would be nice, also eliminating the combat tables.</font>
These problems could be remedied by community and referee work - see this thread and this one - a series of "patches" to fix the holes of CT is under development. I'm still looking forward for T5, though
 
T4's systme is hardly "Better because its simpler". SImpler is not always better.

T4 is far LESS realistic than CT; and no less complex.

MT's additional complexity is hardly a slow down.

MT is one of the few game designs where you can:
- Kill a buff person with a .22 in one shot
- leave a weak person alive on a poor shot with a 12mm MG
and most points between.

CT can't do it, but comes close to the not killing side. T4 can't. TNE and T2K2e can't. 2300 can. GURPS can. CORPS can, but only if the 22 is using called shots for extra damage. Hero Can, but isn't likely to get either extreme often. EABA can.

T4 in fact says you can't kill with one shot, ever.
 
One oddity I've noticed in CT is the "throw Law Level or less to avoid harrassment from local law enforcement agencies".

So, on a LL A planet you throw 2D for 10- to avoid the cops? I do not think so, somehow!

A throw of LL+ on 2D would make sense, but the LL- throw persisted throughout CT, TB, and the AMs.

I haven't got my MT and T4 books to hand at present - was this kink ever ironed out in MT and T4?
 
EABA = End All Be All

Conversion notes, from MT:
Add Astrogation (AWR) & Ship's Engineer (Awr).
Use MT task difficulty numbers straight across... I used MT-ish combat rules...
Skill levels: I didn't do a strict conversion, but... roughly,
0 = +0
each level is 10s for buying up or applying to epic in stat

Epic in one skill: subtract 2 levels before converting
Attributes: no conversion needed for physicals.
AWR = Average Int & Edu,
Wil = Average Int and End
Fate = PSR, then add jack levels.

Social:
Knight 10
Baron 15
Marquis 20
Count 30
Duke 40

Ship's and Weapons: redesign from ground up, and used 1hx for a laser or missile.
Primitive 0-1
Basic 2-3
Industrial 4-5
Atomic 6-8
Post Atomic 9-E (Early = 9-A middle = B-C Late = D-E
Advanced F+

Jump Drive: touchy design which needs (Jn+10) Surplus Dice (after subtracting for mass); 5x as many hexes are used in fuel, at Cr20 per hex for unrefined. Cr100 per hex refined. Budget 10tons mass and 10 hexagons per Td.
note: Stuff! says 16d for a JDrive, but doesn't require fuel, and says build it as a weapon.

Weapons likewise were either taken from the EABA tables or built using the book.

It wasn't quite traveller, but it was sure close.

I used MT tasks wherever I had them. If you know the MT task system, the EABA one is really close, except that anything short of impossible is doable by characters with 3d.
 
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