What was wrong with CT?

[aramis]

Anton:
Several errors in your arguments
(1) T4 predated both GT and T20.

(2) MT DID provide in-play skill advancement, often a many as 8 skills a year! some characters could, with luck, raise a single skill 4 levels in a term

(3) MT DID alter the survival rules. In MT, failed survival is short term, not dead.

(4) T4 was grabbing for a new audience, not to solve the issues of the old one. It failed on both counts.

(5) GT, though I hate it, is the number one GURPS sub-line of all time.

(6) T20, though my name be in it, is not our last best hope. D20 backlash is on the rise.

(7) If you want andorians, put them somewhere. But don't expect Marc, Hunter, or Loren to even do such a thing; it would cost them their jobs, and possibly their homes, when Paramount found out. Oh, and if you REALLY want real Andorians, you use GT and Prime Directive together.

(8) Travellerisms are creeping back into the mainstream gaming consciousness, thanks to Strazynski, Joss Wheedon, Lois Bujold, and David Webber... none of whom write traveller, but all of whom have universes which traveller can be easily tied to for playing.

(9) Until MT, the OTU was not in the core rules. The OTU was optional.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Anton:
(6) T20, though my name be in it, is not our last best hope. D20 backlash is on the rise.

Backlash? What's going on?

 

[rmiracle]

Several errors in your arguments
(1) T4 predated both GT and T20.

I did not mean to imply that T4 came before or after. I consider them all three seperate development branches rising from the failed TNE. The order they came in doesn't matter.

(2) MT DID provide in-play skill advancement, often a many as 8 skills a year! some characters could, with luck, raise a single skill 4 levels in a term

CT had skill improvement too. But it was pathetic. A 4 year sabbatical in game? Almost every Traveller game I've been in that met on a weekly basis paced real world timing on average. That is your two week jump+world time would take about two game sessions to complete. So now you get a skill (or two on average) every game year on average which took a year of real time to get. Not that D&D is the "Best" game, but my current D20 3.5E D&D game is about a calendar year old, but the game calendar has eclipsed about 6 months and thats with built in down time. That party started at 1st level and is now 7th. They get rewarded with character growth every couple 4-6 gaming sessions on average. Sure MT made it better, but it still missed the target.

(3) MT DID alter the survival rules. In MT, failed survival is short term, not dead.

While MT did change the death rule, it still meant the end of char gen. I know some refs that let you transfer to another service if you failed out, but I couldn't find it looking through the books.

(4) T4 was grabbing for a new audience, not to solve the issues of the old one. It failed on both counts.

Marc brought T4 out at a bad time. GDW had died. Traveller had a very vertical market (a small narrow market that doesn't grow, but is very loyal). All RPG's were in decline. It wasn't long after that that TSR went to WoC. Gaming sales didn't pick back up until the D20 system came out.

(5) GT, though I hate it, is the number one GURPS sub-line of all time.

I'm actually mentioned in that book! *See below.

(6) T20, though my name be in it, is not our last best hope. D20 backlash is on the rise.

Please tell us more.

(7) If you want andorians, put them somewhere. But don't expect Marc, Hunter, or Loren to even do such a thing;

I don't want Andorians per sea. If I did, I'd play Star Trek. The point I'm making is that more details about the OTU is what the vertical market would buy. I'm not all that interested in another rule set. I have 5 of them. They all tell me about Merchant Jaminson. I know the Beowulf is in trouble.

(9) Until MT, the OTU was not in the core rules. The OTU was optional.

Which is one of the things that made CT great. One of my favorite Traveller games didn't take place in the OTU. The guy generated his on subsector and we played with in that 8x10 parsec space.

I guess I should introduce myself before making grand posts.

See the bottom of Page 4 of GT? There is a reference to subscribing to the Traveller Mailing list and contacting rwm@mpgn.com to join. Thats me, the infamous Rob Miracle, former list mom of the TML while it was at MPG-Net/Interactive Magic/iEntertainment days. I was a Programmer at Tantalus/MPG-net back in the day when we held the electronic rights to the game. Those were some grand days. I'm long gone from there and my Traveller gaming is limited to some light PBEM work. (Hey Chuck!)

Rob

 

[robject]

Wow, Rob, welcome back. Nice to 'see' Yet Another old-tyme TMLer here. This place is starting to feel downright comfy (or is that 'crusty'?).

 

[Jeffr0]

I'm not all that interested in another rule set. I have 5 of them.

Well... it's not so much that we need another ruleset... but having one that isn't buggy, that has all of the errata folded in, that is more-or-less complete and well integrated, and that is playable and accessible... THAT would be a good thing.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Anton Devious:
See the bottom of Page 4 of GT? There is a reference to subscribing to the Traveller Mailing list and contacting rwm@mpgn.com to join. Thats me, the infamous Rob Miracle, former list mom of the TML while it was at MPG-Net/Interactive Magic/iEntertainment days.

Your nom-du-site does ring a bell. It's good to hear from you again, Rob. It's been too long since Rigo and Anton got together. Do you hear anything from any of the old crowd?


Hans
(Not, alas, speaking for Rigo Harama Edmondsen any more )

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Originally posted by Anton Devious:
CT had skill improvement too. But it was pathetic.

I will grant you that!

Originally posted by Anton Devious:
... my current D20 3.5E D&D game ... has eclipsed about 6 months .... That party started at 1st level and is now 7th.

But, that's the problem (IMHO, yes) with d20 (and with all versions of D&D). How is it possible to go from novice to pro in 6 months? The CT equivalent would be going from a 0 skill level to a 2 in several skills simultaneously over 6 months! CT skill levels only go up to 6....

Now, if you change the range to something closer to the attribute range, you're going to need a slightly faster advancement. And, players will be happier because they can actually see some growth in their character during a moderate (6mo - 1yr) period of gaming.

For my Traveller homebrew, I am looking at a graduated method: the more skills you have, the harder it will be to gain more, whether in play or in chargen.

 

[mike wightman]

CT granted skill improvement at the same rate as it was gained during character generation.

And there was always the possibility of:

Highly scientific or esoteric methods of improving...

Speaking of which, did anyone come up with any?

 

[Jame]

I only improved the chargen version of it: do it per year instead of per term.

 

[SanDragon]

Aaargh! My 2nd edition AD&D campaign has been running since January, and the single-class characters are 4th level.

 

[Berg]

For character improvement I found this set of rules available at Crucible Highport

Experience Points Awarded

Contributed to success on minor mission 1-2
Contributed to success on major mission 3-4

Improvement Costs
Characteristics.......................... x3
Skills........................................ x2

Ideally, character improvement should have some basis in the events of the
game. For instance, if a character uses his Demolitions skill often in an
adventure, he’s entitled to apply his experience to his Demolitions skill level.

Learning New Skills: A character can learn a new skill at level-1 for triple the
usual skill cost. After that, the improvement costs for the skill are as listed above.
The referee may rule that a character requires a significant amount of idle or
‘offstage’ time to learn a brand new skill—perhaps a year or more. (This time
might be reduced by advanced technological means.)

So...
from 1 to 2 skill level: 2 x2= 4 exp points
from 2 to 3 skill level: 3 x2= 6 exp points

Thus the higher you go the harder it is to improve

Tom

 

[FlightCommanderSolitude]

Originally posted by SanDragon:
Aaargh! My 2nd edition AD&D campaign has been running since January, and the single-class characters are 4th level.

This seems to be a sticking point: some people like "levelling up" or other dramatic character improvement, while other people find it annoying. At least in Traveller; I like it in D&D, but find it kind of unrealistic in Traveller. It would be nice to have a character improvement system that could be "scaled" or otherwise readily tweaked to accomodate. The CT system is probably too spare for that.

 

[mike wightman]

A five term marine in CT, a veteran of twenty years of service will have ten skill levels if he's lucky.

So any experience system should grant skill improvement at a similar rate IMHO - which CT does.

Along comes MT with special duty and extra skills for rolling 4 more than needed, and the same marine can now expect about sixteen skill levels.

Almost up to the one per year of service mark.

One skill level per year sounds a reasonable rate of advancement, so any experience system should match this IMHO.

Much more could be made of level 0 skills...

 

[Lord Iron Wolf]

As I recall Traveller characters were restricted to a total maximum skill points being the same total as Intelligence + Education. An average character was limited to 7 + 7 = 14 total points. So even in improvement there was a limit and the player had to choose where he would put those points carefully.

Also in a technological/marital society, most everyone is going to have a lot of level-0 skills to just be able to function.

LIW

 

[mike wightman]

Hmm, another difference between the Traveller Book (and the Traveller Starter set) and the earlier editions.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

The Int + Educ limit isn't in all of the LBBs. I believe it occurs in Merchant Prince and Citizens of the Imperium. But, I don't have my books handy to check. It's certainly not in LBB1.

 

[mike wightman]

Found it in Merchant Prince, but not in Supplement 4. I know it appears in an Alien module - Vargr IIRC.

And it's definitely part of MT...

 

[rmiracle]

My D&D game has been running over a year and they have gotten to 7th. However they have only eaten up 6 months of in game time. 10 real world months and getting to 4th level is reasonable.

 

[rmiracle]

Originally posted by FlightCommanderSolitude:
This seems to be a sticking point: some people like "levelling up" or other dramatic character improvement, while other people find it annoying. At least in Traveller; I like it in D&D, but find it kind of unrealistic in Traveller. It would be nice to have a character improvement system that could be "scaled" or otherwise readily tweaked to accomodate. The CT system is probably too spare for that.

In D&D rewards are plentyful. You go up levels. You improve your abilities. You get treasure and magic items. You get new features, new spells etc.

Traveller and a lot of other games don't have that and its not "that big of a deal" but its still a bit of a deal if that make sense. Because many of the potential players out there or existing players came from D&D, character improvement is a drug.

And while we can be weaned from a drug, is it such a bad thing?

But more to my real issues with the char gen/advancement scheme. In D&D every player pretty much starts on even footing with everyone else with regards to skills and abilities and they advance at a somewhat constant rate. If a character dies or a new player comes in, even if the DM doesn't let them start at the current party level, they can catch up rather quickly (less so in 3E) because of the increasing expereince point scale.

In Traveller a 1 or 2 term character will never be on equal footing with regards to skills as a 4+ term person. Starting loot is less. Starting abilites is less, etc. With things in CT as they are, that catch up is near impossible.

Thats my point!

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, it's not really likely that some 25yo _kid_ is going to catch up to a retired Marine with loads of combat time. Not until the Marine starts feeling his years, anyway. Traveller is much more "real" than D&D in that sense. It's why most folks aim for more than 1-2 terms in CT chargen.

IYTU, of course, you don't have to go that route, but it's how the game was designed.