What Was It About DGP?
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Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
From my understanding, the strong feelings on Mr Sanger's part was that he felt wronged somehow during the MT publishing period. The strong feelings on the part of users are engendered by pretty good products that took LBBs to a more "complete" level. World Builder's Handbook, for example, takes LBB6 and turns it into a system for making very detailed systems/worlds.
All of the DGP Products (IMHO) are of very high qualtiy with excellent detail. Their exclusion from the "Official Canon" for legal reasons is truly disappointing.
The books are extremely well written, and clearly done so from the perspective of people who were playing Traveller. The writing is as good as or better than the Mongoose books, and the art is lightyears better. More importantly, the details provided in each book are written from the "How do I make this adventure fun and interesting". It's a subtle thing, but in reading Joe Fugate's thread, all of the authors at DPG were not only writing, but actively playing. And that comes through in the books. And does so in a way I've not seen in very many other gaming products, let alone Traveller products.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Mr. Sanger was not a part of DGP during the published period. He bought the company when the founders decided to get out after the future of Traveller was reclaimed by GDW. He fully intended to keep publishing, as I understand it, but also had a personal project he wanted help on. DGP's material was the lure to get help with that other project. No one took the bait. Ultimately, the DGP license expired, meaning he can no longer publish.
The Canon status of the DGP materials is curious. The large events of the Rebellion era are Canon, whether described by GDW or DGP. The localized details found in DGP adventures and articles cannot be classified en mass. Some, like the locations of some Ancients sites, the existence of the SSMM, that old Vilani terrorist, and the broad family of Terran-originated uplifted sophonts have found their way into Canon, while other details have not.
What Mr. Sanger continues to hold is the *copyright* to those materials. The specific wording and presentation, in other words.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
Yes.
No game company has 100% hits, but looking over my complete collection of DGP offerings, if there was one set of guys who I'd like to publish Traveller books, I'd pick the DGP guys over anybody else, including Marc and Loren and Co.
I remember, in the 80's, doing backflips when I saw a new DGP item come out.
Their two magazines, too, were more like game resources than mags: The Traveller's Digest and the MegaTraveller Journal.
From the art to the word, if a Traveller had "DGP" stamped onto it, then you could bet on it being a high quality product that you'd use, over and over, in your game.
Hi,
I actually have a bit of mixed feelings about some of that stuff. Specifically, when the "Ship Operator's Manual" first came out I thought it was really interesting and well done, but over time I'm not so sure that it has held up all that well too me.
I think not too long ago I had posted some stuff on how the image of the "Oldtimer" was just a modified image of Adm McCain from WWII, how the deck plans for the Free Trader were grossly oversized, and how the description of a "jump grid" seems to have ultimately added unnecessary complexity and conflict with other canon stuff.
So in the end I kind of like some of the stuff, but I'd suspect that I'm probably not quite as "enamored" of their stuff as others might be.
I actually have a bit of mixed feelings about some of that stuff. Specifically, when the "Ship Operator's Manual" first came out I thought it was really interesting and well done, but over time I'm not so sure that it has held up all that well too me.
I think not too long ago I had posted some stuff on how the image of the "Oldtimer" was just a modified image of Adm McCain from WWII, how the deck plans for the Free Trader were grossly oversized, and how the description of a "jump grid" seems to have ultimately added unnecessary complexity and conflict with other canon stuff.
So in the end I kind of like some of the stuff, but I'd suspect that I'm probably not quite as "enamored" of their stuff as others might be.
I'd be interested to know which Traveller books, in your opinion, are the really great ones.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Thank you for that correction, Gypsy. I had been given the impression there was some bad blood with one of the DGP folks and some portion of the crew at GDW. (I assumed it was Mr. Sanger.)
Roger bought DGP at or just after the close down of the MT line. He wasn't part of DGP prior.
Supplement Four
SOC-14 5K
I still think the SOM is fantastic. Sure, there are differing opinions on how things work in the Traveller universe, but the SOM was the first book to tackle it all, put it in one place, and delve into real detail.
For those who've never see DGP's Starship Operator's Manual, this was a MegaTraveller publication that looked at each major system on a starship and described it in detail, from the Jump and Maneuver Drives, to the ship's computer, to the communications system, to the major sections of the ship (Bridge, Engineering, Hold, Staterooms, Common Area, Corridors, Airlocks, etc), sensors, Weapons....you name it.
The book even provided connection diagrams which I've used several times in games where players tried to cut into a bulkhead and disconnect or override some system or other.
It's a fantastic, amazing book.
I think most RPG pubs have problems like these. I don't know why, but they exist in supplements for just about every game I own.
On the whole, though, the SOM is a winner, even if you don't agree with the "jump grid", the Maneuver Drive "overdrive", or the thought of Thruster Plates.
I dig it. I like the psuedo-science. It doesn't have to be real for me. I buy it if it sounds real enough--just like buying the idea of Jumpspace.
I haven't read the sections yet, but it is interesting that T5 does devote some chapters to these types of questions, and I did see that Jump Grids were included--but the J-Grids are just one method among a few for a starship to create a jump bubble around the ship for transition to J-Space.
Consider me "enamored".
I especially like the descriptions of the different types of control panels. Before the SOM, I really wasn't sure what a "holo-dynamic-linked" panel was.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Nah. Some of the fanbase hates him for what they see as betrayal and intransigence in the face of reality, but I'm told that he and Marc have an understanding. It isn't an understanding that leads to that material re-entering print, but it isn't bad blood.
There *was* some perceived bitterness coming from the original DGP crew when they were "cut out" of the future of Traveller. They had a new metaplot ready to roll as the Rebellion wound down, and really wanted to keep steering Traveller. They were told "no".
Supplement_Four said:
My opinion is mixed. This isn't due to any specific release, though they did occasionally just phone stuff in if it wasn't from their house campaign. It comes more from the changes they wrought on the Imperium through unintended rules and through the presentation of elements like the high tech store "G". Their version of shipbuilding (they wrote most of the MT rules) rendered anything below TL14 near useless, as it couldn't duplicate CT designs unless you used TL15 components. This had the effect of turning the entire Imperium into a cutting edge, TL15 environment despite the huge list of UWPs that said otherwise.
They turned a normally quiet and plotless setting into the biggest spectator event in gaming with the Rebellion.
Despite their supposed level of involvement, they were detached from what was actually published, taking several years to realize that there were large chunks missing from the Player's book, and never realizing that they had basically grafted a fleet combat sim (High Guard) onto an RPG-scale ship construction system with no middle ground and no apologies.
Several years went by before they gave any indications of how to actually play the game under wartime conditions (Knightfall), and the real "War is Hell" guide (Hard Times) didn't ever come from them.
I suspect their publishing of both pre-Rebellion (the Digest Four) and Rebellion material split their attention too much, and it was obvious which of the two they put more time into.
Marc has admitted that the Rebellion was his idea, not DGP's.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
There are ideas, and there is handling. The player engagement in the Rebellion was not handled until years into MT.
It has been posted here in years past that A VERSION of the tale is that mister Sanger "talked" Marc into selling him the property, and that Sanger has sat on the property since that time waiting for a big payoff in the form of someone wanting to buy the DGP archive. Me, whatever actually happened, I do not know, but I am sorry that DGP's archive is gone the way of the dinosaur (sort of).
I did not like the covers for the players' handbook and the encyclopedia, nor some of the quick sketches in the pages themselves (Dietrick caliber they weren't), but after DGP got some sea legs, then really fantastic drawings and descriptions of game components were in the offing. I sold my entire collection for literally pennies on the dollar to some overweight lady in up in San Francisco who ran a game store and bought used items.
I liked the DGP material, post the initial three books, because for once Traveller was really seeing more quality art work and other tangibles to help players with the experience of actually playing the game, as oppose to hemming and hawing every now and then to invent a save throw, or to describe thing-X.
As it stands now, even though the DGP material was of high quality, I think a lot of the newer addons are fairly nifty. I've got the rebellion sourcebook cover staring at me through my plastic file cabinet, and I often wondered why, specifically during the big game boom in the 80s, more games (like the micro game series, or Task Force's ziplock bag games) didn't see more quality visuals injected into their product to help enhance the experience. TSR, a few of their competitors, whoever published that James Bond RPG, spent some serious bank to make their product shine. And I always wondered if perhaps Traveller didn't suffer because it didn't incorporate richer visuals, because that's kind of what DGP did in addition to clarify the personal combat / task system.
Maybe someday someone will buyout mister Sanger, or some other wrangleing/finagleing will occur that'll bring the DGP material back into the light, but I think currently Traveller is in good hands with what's being offered. And I think it'll only get better as Traveller expands.
Still, it would be nice to bring that stuff back into the fold and see a reprint for those who didn't have the chance to glimpse it the first time around.
I did not like the covers for the players' handbook and the encyclopedia, nor some of the quick sketches in the pages themselves (Dietrick caliber they weren't), but after DGP got some sea legs, then really fantastic drawings and descriptions of game components were in the offing. I sold my entire collection for literally pennies on the dollar to some overweight lady in up in San Francisco who ran a game store and bought used items.
I liked the DGP material, post the initial three books, because for once Traveller was really seeing more quality art work and other tangibles to help players with the experience of actually playing the game, as oppose to hemming and hawing every now and then to invent a save throw, or to describe thing-X.
As it stands now, even though the DGP material was of high quality, I think a lot of the newer addons are fairly nifty. I've got the rebellion sourcebook cover staring at me through my plastic file cabinet, and I often wondered why, specifically during the big game boom in the 80s, more games (like the micro game series, or Task Force's ziplock bag games) didn't see more quality visuals injected into their product to help enhance the experience. TSR, a few of their competitors, whoever published that James Bond RPG, spent some serious bank to make their product shine. And I always wondered if perhaps Traveller didn't suffer because it didn't incorporate richer visuals, because that's kind of what DGP did in addition to clarify the personal combat / task system.
Maybe someday someone will buyout mister Sanger, or some other wrangleing/finagleing will occur that'll bring the DGP material back into the light, but I think currently Traveller is in good hands with what's being offered. And I think it'll only get better as Traveller expands.
Still, it would be nice to bring that stuff back into the fold and see a reprint for those who didn't have the chance to glimpse it the first time around.
Foreclosing on real estate, huh? Oh well.
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Hi,
I really liked the 1st LBBs, not because they're perfect or anything but mostly because they were my 1st experience with role playing games and it all seemed so open ended with lots of different options.
I also kind of really like GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars too. After a long absence on my part a lot of the stuff in there really re-ignited my imagination.
(In addition, though its not really considered Traveller per se, I also really like 2300 AD and Traveller 2300)
As for the Ship Operator's Manual, I definitely not saying that I hate it or anything at all, in fact I still like it. Its just that over time some of the initial fascination that I had with it has faded a bit due in part to those issues that I mentioned.
I come in after the sale to Rodge, so my take is a bit different than some. There was a great group of fans willing to help out DGP at first, and I was one of them. But first GDW wasn't interested in selling a license, and then when they were, there was some question as to unpaid obligations. I don't know how that discussion went between Frank and Rodge, but it wasn't great. Many fans left after it was obvious there would be no DGP/TNE materials. After that, Rodge tried to get AI and Interstellar done, but that led to the hard drive fiasco.
In the T4 era, he tried again... I was more involved there... but Courtney Soloman... Sigh...
The sad fact is, Rodge just doesn't believe anyone would buy the stuff. There have been a number of offers, and I try annually to convince him again. If you are a triathlon fan, you might find him, he's in training for events.
In the T4 era, he tried again... I was more involved there... but Courtney Soloman... Sigh...
The sad fact is, Rodge just doesn't believe anyone would buy the stuff. There have been a number of offers, and I try annually to convince him again. If you are a triathlon fan, you might find him, he's in training for events.
