What Was It About DGP?

[aramis]

I come in after the sale to Rodge, so my take is a bit different than some. There was a great group of fans willing to help out DGP at first, and I was one of them. But first GDW wasn't interested in selling a license, and then when they were, there was some question as to unpaid obligations. I don't know how that discussion went between Frank and Rodge, but it wasn't great. Many fans left after it was obvious there would be no DGP/TNE materials. After that, Rodge tried to get AI and Interstellar done, but that led to the hard drive fiasco.

In the T4 era, he tried again... I was more involved there... but Courtney Soloman... Sigh...

The sad fact is, Rodge just doesn't believe anyone would buy the stuff. There have been a number of offers, and I try annually to convince him again. If you are a triathlon fan, you might find him, he's in training for events.

Show him the Ebay sale records.

 

[SpaceBadger]

The sad fact is, Rodge just doesn't believe anyone would buy the stuff. There have been a number of offers, and I try annually to convince him again. If you are a triathlon fan, you might find him, he's in training for events.

As Aramis suggested, show him what those old books are going for on eBay. Then explain that for the mild expense of having some good quality scanned PDFs made, and by working out a mutually beneficial with Marc/FFE, those PDFs could sit on DriveThruRPG just passively pulling in sales income year after year after year, income that would go to Roger and Marc, rather than to collectors and speculators driving the prices up on eBay. Win/Win, for Roger and Marc.

 

[Blue Ghost]

And I saw a disturbing trend in science-fiction gaming ... more of a trend to gritty, violent game settings, and the worst of all -- a marrying of science fiction with the horror genre.

I'm a space opera guy, preferring more the star-spanning adventure, seeing new places, making discoveries, and enjoying interactions with aliens and strange cultures.

Eh, this if from the interview. My reaction; as long as whatever it is is done well, them I'm all for it. I'm sorry the genre shift helped push Joe out of Traveller, but it also sounds like familial responsibilities were also of necessity.

Just my two bits.

 

[GypsyComet]

Eh, this if from the interview. My reaction; as long as whatever it is is done well, them I'm all for it. I'm sorry the genre shift helped push Joe out of Traveller, but it also sounds like familiar responsibilities were also of necessity.

Just my two bits.

I'm trying to recall where he would have gotten that impression within gaming other than Cyberpunk, and that preceded his departure by several years. The 90s were when military SF began its rise on the literature side, to be sure, but very little of that shift was evident where dice were involved, largely because, thanks to Mercenary, Mil SF had always been a part of Traveller. No shift was necessary.

TNE and its predecessor Hard Times were indeed grittier, but after six plus years of Traveller in an all-encompassing war setting, what else would they be? The idea that war can't also be "space opera" is also a curious blind spot.

 

[aramis]

I'm trying to recall where he would have gotten that impression within gaming other than Cyberpunk, and that preceded his departure by several years. The 90s were when military SF began its rise on the literature side, to be sure, but very little of that shift was evident where dice were involved, largely because, thanks to Mercenary, Mil SF had always been a part of Traveller. No shift was necessary.

TNE and its predecessor Hard Times were indeed grittier, but after six plus years of Traveller in an all-encompassing war setting, what else would they be? The idea that war can't also be "space opera" is also a curious blind spot.

We're talking 1990-1994 era - Cyberpunk as a genre (CP2013, CP2020, Shadowrun, Cyberspace), Rifts, Torg, Shatterzone, Vampire & Werewolf, Warhammer FRP in rerelease; Warhammer FB and 40K rising to prominence, the Aliens RPG, darker themes in D&D world settings (Dark Sun, especially, but also changes in both FR and DL settings), and of course, TNE.

It wasn't really that bad, but if one only saw the big names, one could easily think the industry as a whole was going down into darkness. Even Hero Games had Dark Champions. It was an underserved market element being overcompensated, but it could easily be mistakenly seen as a wide slide.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I'm trying to recall where he would have gotten that impression within gaming other than Cyberpunk, and that preceded his departure by several years. The 90s were when military SF began its rise on the literature side, to be sure, but very little of that shift was evident where dice were involved, largely because, thanks to Mercenary, Mil SF had always been a part of Traveller. No shift was necessary.

TNE and its predecessor Hard Times were indeed grittier, but after six plus years of Traveller in an all-encompassing war setting, what else would they be? The idea that war can't also be "space opera" is also a curious blind spot.

I don't really know. I was never much of a big "gamer" as such, so much as I liked the fiction of the source material. From my perspective I saw this emergence of good sci-fi supplements for Traveller with DGP, and then suddenly things seem to vanish for no reason. At the time I had an interest in building a media career so that I could tap things like Traveller or the TTA series for short flims and the like. But it's like Traveller and the sci-fi genre seemed to erode.

If he had family and a regular full time consulting occupation on top of that, then I can see where obligations to the wife and kids would take precedence. When I was freelancing a lot suddenly I had no time for my friends, nor my family. I can't imagine being self employed in two time demanding careers; coding and writing for games.

 

[Vargas]

So to try and sum up a bit, the interest in DGP came from its well written and illustrated support material like SOM and WBH more than anything else.

 

[PFVA63]

So to try and sum up a bit, the interest in DGP came from its well written and illustrated support material like SOM and WBH more than anything else.

Hi,

I'd maybe revise that to say that it came from "them providing a lot of informative additional detail and being reasonably well written".

To me, the poor scaling/grossly over-sized deckplan and the "faked" image of the "oldtimer' (where the "artist" seems to have just done a bit of a retrace and modest mods to a portrait taken by another artist/photographer) kind of drops the level of the illustrations to me.

------------- Oldtimer -------------- Original Potrait

(PS. As for the writing. overall I think it is pretty good, but to be honest some of the "Oldtimer" quotes do come across a bit cartoonish and gimmicky upon re-reading them a couple times.)

 

[Supplement Four]

So to try and sum up a bit, the interest in DGP came from its well written and illustrated support material like SOM and WBH more than anything else.

I recognized DGP's superior Traveller publications way before either of those were published.

I used to subscribe to the Traveller's Digest. Each and every one of those is worth owning, and each carries in it a wealth of awesome Traveller goodies.

Remember, it was DGP that introduced a structured task system to Traveller, What we think of as the MegaTraveller task system (It's offically called the Universal Task Profile) was developed for Classic Traveller first and presented in Traveller's Digest.

That task system is just one of the DGP house rules that were incorporated into the game when the switch was made to MegaTraveller.

DGP gave us deck plans like we've never seen before. The art was alwasy top notch. Supplements were few, but they were fantastic. Like Grand Survey and Grand Census, both written for Classic Traveller.

DGP = Traveller Quality




EDIT: I don't understand the comments about the Old Timer. I mean, so what if he was based on someone and not made up. So what if his figure was traced over (GDW did that too, with some famous Battlestar Galactica and Star Wars shots in their Alien modules).

The Old Timer, in the SOM, is a bit of color that adds perspective on the systems for their practical use. I found the Old Timer comments quite helpful, but they can easily be ignored. They are just footnotes in each chapter.

 

[DonM]

As Aramis suggested, show him what those old books are going for on eBay. Then explain that for the mild expense of having some good quality scanned PDFs made, and by working out a mutually beneficial with Marc/FFE, those PDFs could sit on DriveThruRPG just passively pulling in sales income year after year after year, income that would go to Roger and Marc, rather than to collectors and speculators driving the prices up on eBay. Win/Win, for Roger and Marc.

I have. I've had Matthew review the Mongoose sales details. Marc reviewed similar information from CD sales and, of course, the kickstarter. I've done other things as well. Rodge is truly convinced that RPGs are done and not relevant today.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

There is an old thread here on the board where Joe Fugate of DGP was invited to chat and answered just about everone's questions on DGP products and why DGP went south....
Bear with the thread, the forum was doing some odd double and triple posting of people's single posts at the time. Officially, Mr. Fugate comes on on post 133 of the thread. It is extremely enlightening. No better source than the man in charge. Mr. Fugate seemed pretty open on all topics...

here
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=11154

 

[aramis]

I have. I've had Matthew review the Mongoose sales details. Marc reviewed similar information from CD sales and, of course, the kickstarter. I've done other things as well. Rodge is truly convinced that RPGs are done and not relevant today.

In other words, as unreasonable as ever.

 

[GypsyComet]

Oh the irony.

The game A.I. might have become pulled in a lot of money in a Kickstarter campaign last year.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1433901524/numenera-a-new-roleplaying-game-from-monte-cook

 

[mike wightman]

Yup, considering the popularity of Transhumanist sci-fi now A.I. was ahead of its time.

I would buy it now - certainly back a kickstarter for it.

An I just wonder what a kickstarter for DGP CT/MT material would bring in?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

For me, the appeal of DGP products was primarily in the magazines. With no Web and many not having access to any Internet at the time (not till my first computer job in 1989), the conventions and magazines were the primary sources.

What was so good about DGP?
The Traveller's Digest went all about the Third Imperium, expanding knowledge of it that was not otherwise available at the time. Or they made stuff up and it became canon. Except for the three issues they did not stay in the Spinward Marches or the Solomani Rim. Thank God! Hey good stuff, but *gag* it is the same sectors over and over again. Because at the time those were pretty much the only sectors written about. Not counting fanzines.
Licensees did their thing, but no one else published about what was happening inside the Imperium during the "Golden Era". DGP did it.
- Each and every sentence of Library data was like a new gem.
- Each new jump route, each full sector or subsector of UWP's never seen before

 

[Nathan Brazil]

I have. I've had Matthew review the Mongoose sales details. Marc reviewed similar information from CD sales and, of course, the kickstarter. I've done other things as well. Rodge is truly convinced that RPGs are done and not relevant today.

It seems to me that all the fairly reasonable things are done along the lines of "Here you don't have to do much or put out any money. Sign here and YOU will get money for something you consider to have no monetary value."

So, it is not about money then?
Personal issues like your woe is my weal and it will never see the light of day again?
Gaming philosophy like the guy who wrote Synnibar?

 

[SpaceBadger]

the "faked" image of the "oldtimer' (where the "artist" seems to have just done a bit of a retrace and modest mods to a portrait taken by another artist/photographer) kind of drops the level of the illustrations to me.

------------- Oldtimer -------------- Original Potrait

Really? The image of the "Old Timer" based on a photo of "Popeye" McCain bothers you that much?

You are absolutely right! I never thought anyone would notice, but I'm a WW2 Naval History buff, and when we were looking for someone to model the Old Timer, I pulled out my Naval History books and told my wife (who did the sketch, by the way) ... here, do *him*.

And so it was. Glad you agree with my choice. I thought he looked the part perfectly.

 

[Blue Ghost]

EDIT: I don't understand the comments about the Old Timer. I mean, so what if he was based on someone and not made up. So what if his figure was traced over (GDW did that too, with some famous Battlestar Galactica and Star Wars shots in their Alien modules).

The Old Timer, in the SOM, is a bit of color that adds perspective on the systems for their practical use. I found the Old Timer comments quite helpful, but they can easily be ignored. They are just footnotes in each chapter.

It was one of my beefs with the Keith brothers in CT. The FASA hotel module cover is directly lifted from Syd Meade's artwork. One of the solomani ship's (the scout?) looks like it was lifted from Lucas's B-Wing fighter, ditto with the Far Trader loosely resembling the Millenium Falcon. Which is dissapointing, because you could have hired any high schooler to come up with a concept sketch, pay him, then fork it over to a professional artist to clean it up and add details and highlights. Everybody gets credit, and its an original design for your game.

So, yeah, I do have some issues with "paying homage" or "borrowing", or heck, just call it like it is, outright theft of stuff. Why not grab your grandfather, take a photo of him, and use him as the old timer?

Just me. DGP was good. Hopefully it'll see the sun again someday.

 

[PFVA63]

Really? The image of the "Old Timer" based on a photo of "Popeye" McCain bothers you that much?

Hi,

In addition to Blue Ghost's comments, to me its kind of like seeing a movie and/or reading a book and thinking "that was really interesting, I liked that" only to later find out that the story was fairly liberally taken from Shakespeare, Dickens, or Hemingway, etc with just some names and/or the setting being changed a little or some other form of "filing the serial numbers off". In the end, yeah, my feelings about the work in question drops a bit. (I'm not saying I hate it but rather I'm jut saying my feelings about it drops a bit).

Beyond that though, there's also the issue with the deck plans being so far off. When I 1st saw the Ship Operator's Manual I remember thinking how cool the deck plans were. But later when I was informed just how far off they were I remember feeling a bit bummed and almost "cheated", they seriously bent the rules.

As such I kind of feel the same way about the deck plans in the Ship Operator's Manual as I do about the early mis-scaled deck plans from Mongoose, in that you can kind of maybe make use of them as a generic miscellaneous deck plan when you need a random "generic" setting but they definitely do not model any known ship in the Traveller universe and I doubt that I would ever try to use them as being representative of any known Traveller ship.

 

[Supplement Four]

Hi,
Beyond that though, there's also the issue with the deck plans being so far off. When I 1st saw the Ship Operator's Manual I remember thinking how cool the deck plans were. But later when I was informed just how far off they were I remember feeling a bit bummed and almost "cheated", they seriously bent the rules.

I jumped for joy when Traveller Supplement 7 came out, Traders & Gunboats. At the time, it was an awesome play aid.

I understand some of those deckplans are off, too.

As a matter of fact, I remember when Mongoose Traveller first came out and their deck plans were off.

It happens.