What TL equals a god?

[far-trader]

I think part of the issue here is once a culture reaches a certain TL and has a scientific view of the universe the belief in gods becomes a matter of faith for the individual.

Having an alien arrive on the scene with unexplainable powers wouldn't make them seen as a god, just a super advanced alien with technology we need to "borrow".

I think Mike has nailed the definitive bit here. Touched on by others as well.

If I understand correctly, and if not at least it's saying what I'm thinking.

TL won't define godhood. People will.

You could have all the TL Magic you want and still fail the god test.

Even primitive people who might be wowed by your thunder sticks and sunlight orbs won't be fooled because you don't act like their gods, or their belief is such that their god or gods simply don't show up in person.

Likewise tech advanced people.

Sure there may be some who will be fooled, convinced, even eagerly willing, to accept that your super abilities are proof of divinity but I think the true test is beyond simple TL + X = god

...but that doesn't really address the thread question.

...and TL is not a linear or appropriately measured quantity for that.

I don't think I can help on the actual thread question in a definitive way sorry. I think it's too situational for a simple mechanic.

 

[DaveChase]

Ah, far-trader, the OP of the thread might be a bit inaccurate at the desired question, but it does (did) generate what I was really looking for, a good discussion on how TL can be viewed by others (of different TL, culture and other backgrounds.)

I am finding that even though the majority of posters have the same general concept of result the view of how that result is obtained is slightly different each time.

Dave Chase

 

[DangerousThing]

Hmm, I wonder why Superman isn't depicted as a god.

Are you a comic reader? In most of the runs of Superman he has been depicted as a god. However, he denies it in a midwest, "aw shucks" manner and people believe him.

Of course, there being lots of superheroes on Earth (the DC Comics version of it at least), even though Superman is the 2nd most powerful hero on Earth he isn't worshiped by most people mostly because he says not to and acts as a hero rather than a god. And some of these heroes *are* gods (Mister Miracle is one).

And yet, in the DC Comics Earth, there are churches devoted to Superman and Supergirl despite the denials. It's just that most people think these churches are run by cranks and misguided idiots.

 

[DangerousThing]

T5 TL33 = indistinguishable from a god...
You can create and manipulate matter
You are effectively immortal - till heat death of universe (and maybe into the birth of the next one)
You can travel anywhere immediately
Fundamental knowledge of the universe is yours
You have reached singularity....

Yes, at TL-Z one has the singularity and the definition of "person" is probably something we don't understand now.

However, unless this TL-Z person decided to act as a "god" to an intelligent and educated TL-7 Earth person, I think the major thought would be alien with lots of imbedded technology. But maybe I'm wrong about most people -- I'm an SF reader and gamer and used to silliness like mortals pretending to be gods (at least in fiction).

 

[Icosahedron]

Hmm, I wonder why Superman isn't depicted as a god.

TL won't define godhood. People will.

You could have all the TL Magic you want and still fail the god test.

Are you a comic reader? In most of the runs of Superman he has been depicted as a god. However, he denies it in a midwest, "aw shucks" manner and people believe him.

However, unless this TL-Z person decided to act as a "god" to an intelligent and educated TL-7 Earth person, I think the major thought would be alien with lots of imbedded technology.

These all point to a fundamental truth. Acceptance of divinity is a 'contract' between the worshipper and the worshipped.
Superman isn't seen as a god because he doesn't want to be, and because his audience are largely skeptics. If Superman (made evil by red Kryptonite, perhaps) flew to a world of TL0 barbarians steeped in superstition, told them he was a god and performed a number of 'miracles' to prove it, he probably would be accepted as a god, but in the DC world, where the guy is self-deprecating and superheroes are commonplace, people see him as just another superhero.

In general, as the TL of the observer increases, acceptance of the divinity of a corporeal entity decreases.

Also, Superman isn't immortal (is he? I could be mistaken), he can be harmed, if not killed, by Kryptonite, his 'magic' is explainable by the laws of the DC universe (ie superheroes exist and superheroism is therefore an alternative explanation to divinity), and he doesn't demonstrate extensive control over the environment, so he actually satisfies only one of my five criteria (he has a superhuman UPP). Definitely not a god.

 

[mike wightman]

Are you a comic reader? In most of the runs of Superman he has been depicted as a god. However, he denies it in a midwest, "aw shucks" manner and people believe him.

Of course, there being lots of superheroes on Earth (the DC Comics version of it at least), even though Superman is the 2nd most powerful hero on Earth he isn't worshiped by most people mostly because he says not to and acts as a hero rather than a god. And some of these heroes *are* gods (Mister Miracle is one).

And yet, in the DC Comics Earth, there are churches devoted to Superman and Supergirl despite the denials. It's just that most people think these churches are run by cranks and misguided idiots.

Since you bring up comics you can't have a better example of this than the latest Marvel films, Thor and The Avengers.

The Asgardians and others are explained as a super advanced race where technology is now akin to magic.

When Thor and the others appeared to the Vikings donkeys years ago they were worshiped as gods.

Now they are recognised for what they are - high TL aliens.

 

[Gray Pennell]

Since you bring up comics you can't have a better example of this than the latest Marverl films, Thor and The Avengers.

The Asgardians and others are explained as a super advanced race where technology is now akin to magic.

When Thor and the others appeared to the Vikings donkeys years ago they were worshiped as gods.

Now they are recognised for what they are - high TL aliens.

I think its interesting that we have 3 different approaches to this question.

1. Uber Tech=Godhead
2. Society creates a Godhead
3. Writers Create Godhead

I have already explained that I do not think technology no matter how advance creates a God head. It can create fear and servitude but not God head power. I think the problem lies with writers such as Lovercraft, DC and Maravel writers. The ability to describe advanced advanced technology is pretty hard to do. Just look at our discussions over the mining of world and the differences between tech level 15 and antimatter at 17. So the writers use "God Like Powers and magic" I am a social scientist so 2nd will be the way I see Godhead creation. I wonder what the supporters of Uber tech supports do...but thats my social scientist in me talking.

 

[Spinward Scout]

I have already explained that I do not think technology no matter how advance creates a God head. It can create fear and servitude but not God head power.

Fear and Servitude usually follow someone claiming to be a God. Unless it's a healing or sex God/Goddess. You can't be 'Almighty' without being mighty. And how do you demonstrate might?

How else would you demonstrate God-like powers?

 

[Gray Pennell]

Fear and Servitude usually follow someone claiming to be a God. Unless it's a healing or sex God/Goddess. You can't be 'Almighty' without being mighty. And how do you demonstrate might?

How else would you demonstrate God-like powers?

Thats my point, you cant the civilization gives the God Head their powers. They decide who is the god of volcanos or war, they decide when the god lives and when he dies. If a TL 30 person/allien showed up and threaten them with death or worship they will worship so as not to die but they would still follow their own believes. The God Head may act out their believes but here again it is following their believes they are granting it power over them. If he abuses that he will be reveled as a sham.

Servitude is only one of many signs of worship and is usually recognized quickly as an abusive forum. Worship's main function is to hold society together by giving meaning to rites and rituals. So the god head wanti be maybe pretty fly for allien if they cant give meaning to the people they are just another dictator all be it an uber one with deadly tech.

As I said I am not a person who buys the Stargate allien god thing at all. I would rebell and so would ancient people. Nietzsche was not the first to kill a god head nor is likely to be last. They are not fools no matter how low their TL. To assume TL, which can barely explains technology, can explain how advance a culture is; leads to many problems.

 

[Spinward Scout]

They are not fools no matter how low their TL.

Some are fools despite their TL.

So then I think that it's partially true that legend drives worship, but the legend has to start somewhere. Sports heroes get worshiped. Rock stars get worshiped. ⌧ stars get worshiped. People in cargo planes in the South Pacific in World War II got worshiped when they brought food and supplies. Scientists even get worshiped. It depends on whether their accomplishments get acknowledgement and respect and become legendary. Look at the story of Hercules.

I think you are overestimating the 'non-gullibility' of ancient people. Clearly some ancient cultures didn't rebel against blood sacrifice for hundreds of years. Some thought the world was flat. Some traded their land for trinkets.

Some people are raised in a culture of 'question everything' and others are raised in a culture of 'show unquestioning respect for your elders' and others still are raised in a culture of 'they don't deserve my respect' and even some others are raised in a culture of 'give credit where credit is due'.

And when Kulathama from the Sky came down and smote the Enemies of the People with the Lightning Spear, he became legend. And when Kulathama Sky-Hero placed his hand on the girl's forehead and the Red Spots went away, many of the People sang of the Miracle. But some People didn't believe and soon Kulathama Sky-God had to leave riding his Sky Lizard.

Kulathama's plasma weapon and advanced medical tech didn't save him from people who refused to believe.

Maybe it's just that you youngin's don't have the same respect that us old fogies have. You know, when I was your age, we had to worship the Alien Overlords or we got a whoopin'. I can remember driving my air/raft uphill both ways to indoctrination school every day. You kids these days have no respect...

 

[rancke]

People in cargo planes in the South Pacific in World War II got worshiped when they brought food and supplies.

No they didn't. They got suspected of having intercepted the goodies that the gods had obviously intended for their true worshippers.

I think you are overestimating the 'non-gullibility' of ancient people. Clearly some ancient cultures didn't rebel against blood sacrifice for hundreds of years. Some thought the world was flat. Some traded their land for trinkets.

All eminently sensible. Blood sacrifice warded off much worse calamities; if the Earth was round the people on the other side would fall off; and since you can't own land, it is smart (though not very nice) to con some foreign idiot out of his enormously valuable trinkets.

Science Fiction literature is full of stories of people being worshipped as gods for one reason and another. And also full of stories of ancient or primitive people seeing through such pretense, of course. Some of them are about people being worshipped as gods despite denying it.

There's also the historical example of Pizzaro.


Hans

 

[77topaz]

The CT (?) TL list (at least the one at http://travellermap.com/formats.htm ) defines TL L as "comprehensible only as technological magic". But that's for us TL 8 humans. TL F people may have a completely different interpretation of "magic".

 

[DaveChase]

Well I finally found something of actual historical along the lines of my question.

It is from the Lewis and Clark expedition across the North and West of what is now called the United States of America.

The video in part explains what we were talking about how TL and culture can make one appear more powerful than they might actually be.

No, Lewis and Clark and their men were not considered Gods but it is an interesting story.

And the firearm is very, very cool for the time also.

http://www.network54.com/Forum/451309/thread/1296928404/This+is+just+to+cool+not+to+spread+around


Dave Chase

 

[kafka47]

I am always reminded of the quote from Inherit the Wind a play based upon the Scopes trial. "God created Man, and Man returned the complement and created God."

Essentially, any TL is capable of creating cults from those cults they can form the basis of religion. So, anything that a charismatic person or institution can acquire mystical (ie defying current paradigms of knowledge) can set something up as a God. I think Fading Suns does the treatment of religion very well.

IMTU, religion is very much a planetary or sector affair. The Imperium has a strict policy of not endorsing any one sect and has a strict policy of secularism in its branches of government. Having said that, people are free to practice their beliefs.

But, agreed a TL 15 would find it hard to accept a TL 20 civilization as Heaven but they could depends upon the Referee. Imagine a TL 15 society that has degenerated into solely creativity importing patents from elsewhere - and their inspiration is to find the body of the Goddess in their work and machines including semi-sentient machines.

Prometheus and Outcasts also does a good job at showing the persistence of religion in a future age.

 

[Carlobrand]

Suffice to say, if you came into a given culture and displayed abilities beyond their comprehension, you would be considered ... noteworthy. The definition of "noteworthy" depends on the specifics of the culture: you might be considered a god, but then again you might be considered a wicked demon come to turn their world upside down and sow chaos with your unfamiliar magic. You might be considered some form of super-mortal, a demi-god. Or you might be considered an alien from another dimension, or a psychic, or a wizard, or ...

Some of it would depend on how you presented your abilities - assuming you could communicate with them. Some of it would depend on the assumptions implicit in that culture's belief systems. The TL15 Imperium is an intensely technological culture: show them something that is obviously technological and they would assume it is advanced tech. Show them something with no obvious roots in technology - walk through a wall while carrying no tools, for example - and they'd be pretty mystified, but if you look organic they'd assume it was some variation of psi. Those are the assumptions of Imperial culture.

For you to reach past that, you'd need to show them something that reached past all those conventions - defying fundamental laws by instantaneously reordering planets, making a star appear and disappear, making flames go backward and "unburn" something, crushing buildings and then reconstructing them exactly as they were, resurrecting a person from the bones as they watched, being several examples. Violate entropy or the conservation of matter/energy, etc. and you've likely got their attention. Problem there is, their first assumption is still going to be grounded in their culture - they're likely to think you've taken control of their mind and are creating illusions in it rather than believing the laws they cherish can be violated. Assumptions are dearly held things, to some more precious than life itself

 

[DaveChase]

http://www.youtube.com/user/perrier?v=OwrlmVEyfQw


Now this is funny space commerical. Wonder what TL earth is when this could be true?


LOL

Dave Chase