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What do you HATE about CT?

Ok, ok. I wasn't being precise, in my earlier context, half and slightly better than half meant the same thing.

Never, never ever do that to a statistician...;)

Still, for me the relevant bit is the unskilled failure rate. 9/10.
Still, I can assure you, I wouldn't want a Medical-1 to even do beginning work on me.
<snip of great story that reminds me of a time an ER attendant tried to take a friends Blood pressure over a cast>
That Medical-1 nurse at the hospital failed the roll to assist me properly and then lied about the failure. :(
Sounds like a MEDICAL-1 with a -2 for INT......and a bluff-2.

Still, the random Medical -0 off the street would likely have injected it into your heart like in Pulp Fiction.

But basically, yes, I agree that the skill system doesn't perfectly model all world tasks, using the same system. Probably Med needs its own rules.

Honestly, unless it was a plot point, your GM should have let the MEDIC-1 do the injection without a roll...unless it was....say you were an unwitting test of a nanotech tracking device...or a bioboost serum...yeah. That's it ! You're being used to smuggle data or an innert encapsulated biosample to an interdicted planet; or perhaps the nanites are micro flash chips that will transmit when exposed to the proper signal. They hurt going in because they had nothing to do with the real drug, or they just pushed the drug + nanites in a hurry to move you back to your ship. You're a Nanomule. The later medical trip was the clue that something squicky happened, not just that they were fools*....never ascribe to incompetence that which can be blamed on the gamemaster.



*yes, I know your example was IRL. This is tomfoolery.
 
Imagine this in the character development section:

I think the first two examples cited re char gen death and world gen, had they been used, would have saved so much heartache and bellyache over the decades that it isn't even funny. ;)

And I beg to differ; while I don't tend to use it, I can clearly see death during char gen as motivating players to do things differently.
 
I think the first two examples cited re char gen death and world gen, had they been used, would have saved so much heartache and bellyache over the decades that it isn't even funny. ;)

Without even trying hard, I can think of at least three people who might not be permabanned here (and elsewhere) if those had been specified up front. But then again, maybe not. People tend to migrate toward their level of....comfort. :D
 
I did not say level 1 skills could not be used. I was saying that a character with an all or mostly level 1 skill set is basically incompetent.

I am no longer really sure how I reached this conclusion as I am unable to locate the CT skill/task-resolution system. I am remembering, vaguely, my opinions that formed 25+ years ago based on games played at that time. I haven't really crawled through the detailed mechanics of certain CT system for ages. (HG2 ship building? I reviewed these in the last few years. Book 1 personal combat? Not a glance since 1984-5 or so.)

I have poured over Books 1, 2, and 3 yesterday and today, and I still can't find a skill/task-resolution system. Maybe I blinked? Today I did locate the section in Book 1 on how skills affect combat, so I may have missed the skill/task-resolution system. Could you please help me out on that one?

For character generation, I think I am recollecting that I eventually let people choose skills off the eligible skill tables instead of rolling randomly (they could roll if they wanted). That was a great leap forward.

There is no central task system in CT. NONE. Each skill has it's own resolution mechanics. There is a common misconception that the combat general roll is the task system....

And Skill 1 is axiomatically defined as employable, at least in the starship skills (Pilot, Navigation, Engineering, Gunnery, Steward, Medical) at standard pay... skill above that is a bonus. (TTB 55.)

For vehicles, having level 1 allows basic operation and maintenance. NO rolls for making it across town... unless the weather is bad, the vehicle is damaged, the safe speeds are being exceeded, or the operator inebriated, or other equivalents... (See Air/Raft and ATV entries, TTB 22.)
 
There is no central task system in CT. NONE. Each skill has it's own resolution mechanics. There is a common misconception that the combat general roll is the task system....

Okay, I concede the point. If it isn't there, it isn't. Thanks, Aramis.
Still, it works well as a general skill system. Apparently well enough that I assumed that that was how it is resolved.
And Skill 1 is axiomatically defined as employable, at least in the starship skills (Pilot, Navigation, Engineering, Gunnery, Steward, Medical) at standard pay... skill above that is a bonus. (TTB 55.)

For vehicles, having level 1 allows basic operation and maintenance. NO rolls for making it across town... unless the weather is bad, the vehicle is damaged, the safe speeds are being exceeded, or the operator inebriated, or other equivalents... (See Air/Raft and ATV entries, TTB 22.)
TESTIFY, BROTHER ! :D
 
unless we are playing Buckaroo Banzi
Now that sounds like a good game.


, but rolling a CT character, even with death at term 6 takes, what -five minutes ?
For Book 1? Well, I did maybe one or two under it, and maybe ten under Supplement 4.

I do recall that for my first time through the Book 1 system, it took about an hour to figure out where all the flows went and how all the tables worked together. And I probably made some mistakes as I recall figuring some stuff out under Supplement 4. I did encounter dead characters here under the Survival roll as I was dicing it out honestly to begin with. Right after I rolled my first character death, I stopped and decided to ignore that and continue onward. The Survival roll became a non-roll until somewhere I read about a "forced out of service" option.

Books 4 and 5 were both available by the time I started working on the game, and I picked them up not too long after I had Books 1-3 and Supplement 4. It took me only one character rolled up under Book 5 to realize that I would never use Book 1 or Supplement 4 again as a player, for any reason, ever.

As a GM, I fudged a lot of characters using the rank and mustering tables in Supplement 4 after using Books 4 and 5 to roll up skills. Any super-military skills, like Fleet Tactics, got converted into something else more appropriate after finishing up. This tended to add time to the processes involved.

Character creation times under Books 4 and 5 were what I was basing my statements on. Book 1 and Supplement 4 would have been faster, I admit, had I rolled more characters under them. I always remember taking a bit to think about which table I would risk rolling on. If I had been more, "I don't care," and just rapidly picked tables and rolled, yeah, 5 minutes. For Books 4 and 5, it usually took 15-20 minutes once I got rolling on it. The first under each of them, though, too over an hour. Again, I found out after a few generations that I had made mistakes and the first few characters under each weren't rolled correctly.

What was it, hmm, researching... Oh yes, in Book 5 (and Book 4), there are various schools as special duty. Several of the schools provided a list of skills that were to be learned. To learn each skill on the list, you had to roll above a goal on 1D6. I somehow missed that item on the first few characters and simply wrote down all the skills. I cannot tell you how furious I was when I finally read about the goal roll. It implied that, in the military, you could be sent to special development school and get nothing out of it. And that did happen to me when I tried it, I would roll for every available skill from a school and get none of them. I cannot see a person's superiors taking kindly to having sent him or her to a school, expending the teaching effort, and getting nothing out of it. I think I wound up ignoring the goal roll on those extra schools eventually and went back to doing it like I did before I found out about it. While I did like the extra schools system overall, some offered far too little in comparison to the others. I can't remember having done anything to bring the weak schools into line with the decent schools, but I should have.

Books 6 and 7 were somewhat modeled on Books 4 and 5, but for whatever reason, their processes felt like they flowed a bit differently and I didn't like them.

The vast majority of characters I created were done under Books 4 and 5. I sat and created character after character just to see what random results popped out. That was from a GM's viewpoint, not a player's viewpoint. As a GM, I rather liked getting random results as I was not specifically trying for anything. In some ways, I was even disappointed that there wasn't a random equipment generator so I could just have that part pumped out, too.


okay, YOU try writing an algorithm that interactively conditionally accounts for nearby object variables.
Given that it was their campaign setting, what I actually would have thought was:

Randomly create characteristics of all worlds in one pass, and then analyze the results a bit, you know, to see what had come out of it. Because I'm telling you that the most basic analysis of the results show huge numbers of issues.

Once you had done that, then you go in and manually (or programatically) tweak it until most, but not all, of the issues were gone. It's okay to have serious anomalous results here and there, but not everywhere.
 
And I beg to differ; while I don't tend to use it, I can clearly see death during char gen as motivating players to do things differently.
I do not differ with you on that assertion. It certainly motivated hordes not to play Traveller. Any time I have ever discussed CT over the years in person with people who had also played it, one of the first subjects to come up with was, "Oh yeah, I remember, my character died as I was rolling it up and I was so mad I quit playing on the spot."

I do not ever recall receiving a, "That was really cool," response.
 
I do not differ with you on that assertion. It certainly motivated hordes not to play Traveller. Any time I have ever discussed CT over the years in person with people who had also played it, one of the first subjects to come up with was, "Oh yeah, I remember, my character died as I was rolling it up and I was so mad I quit playing on the spot."

I thought everyone used the "death result really means that you have to start adventuring the way you are, no more careers for you!" version of that rule. I guess not. (Sort of a permanent form of failure to re-enlist.)
 
There is no central task system in CT. NONE. Each skill has it's own resolution mechanics. There is a common misconception that the combat general roll is the task system....
Yes, it was pointed out to me shortly after making that post. You have to realize, as I have mentioned once or twice before in topics long gone by, regrettably, I have not played Traveller since the 1980s. What was it, twenty games tops over a three or four year period? We were all teenagers and there was a lot of roll-playing over role-playing. Since then, I have done world, ship, and milieu building just because I like it. I have had little cause to look at the skill systems in ages.

There just has been no one I know who wants to play it face to face. Death during character generation as it existed in the 1980s was, in my opinion, the most damaging thing in Traveller for obtaining and retaining new players. I have literally run into multiple people who still won't touch Traveller just for this issue. It's discouraging.


And Skill 1 is axiomatically defined as employable, at least in the starship skills (Pilot, Navigation, Engineering, Gunnery, Steward, Medical) at standard pay... skill above that is a bonus. (TTB 55.)
I understand where you're coming from now.


(See Air/Raft and ATV entries, TTB 22.)
I never had TTB.
 
I thought everyone used the "death result really means that you have to start adventuring the way you are, no more careers for you!" version of that rule. I guess not. (Sort of a permanent form of failure to re-enlist.)
Not everyone stayed around long enough to find out.
 
I thought everyone used the "death result really means that you have to start adventuring the way you are, no more careers for you!" version of that rule. I guess not. (Sort of a permanent form of failure to re-enlist.)

Enough that, in MT, that's the default rather than the option. Tho it is an explicit option in 2nd ed CT.


There just has been no one I know who wants to play it face to face. Death during character generation as it existed in the 1980s was, in my opinion, the most damaging thing in Traveller for obtaining and retaining new players. I have literally run into multiple people who still won't touch Traveller just for this issue. It's discouraging.

And a lot of that is due to people decrying it and claiming wrongly it persisted into later editions. Dead Character is an option in all later editions except GT; it's only core in CT. Short term and muster out is an option in all but the first few printings of CT.

I never had TTB.
CT 2E bk.1 pp.7-8 for the ATV and Air/Raft text.
 
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And a lot of that is due to people decrying it and claiming wrongly it persisted into later editions. Dead Character is an option in all later editions except GT; it's only core in CT. Short term and muster out is an option in all but the first few printings of CT.
Yes, I know. I've tried to be reasonable and encouraging to all such people I have met by pointing out what really happened. From some strange reason, the reality was always an eye-opener to them. It seemed that someone had always tried to cram the death rule down their throats.

I guess my personal experiences regarding this are not the norm, but there they are. This is a rant topic and that's my biggest CT hate, death during character generation.


CT 2E bk.1 pp.7-8 for the ATV and Air/Raft text.
Did you mean pages 17 and 18? Because my Book 1 pages 7-8 do not mention Air/Rafts or ATVs.

Nothing is mentioned on Book 1 page 17-18 about "axiomatic" skill usage. Page 23 does mention default skill usage, "skill 0", and Air/Rafts and ATVs are included in the default skill list. Default skills allow ordinary usage and nothing else. (I like how the last skill on the default list is weapons but default usage prohibits dangerous activities.)

The Air/Raft skill says the goal is 5+, and at Air/Raft-1, 4+ or better for a standard difficulty stress roll is not bad. However, if we look over to ATVs on the next page, it makes no mention of a goal. Yes, we can assume it is 5+ goal just like Air/Raft. (Just like I can assume that TL-13 worlds offer life-extension technology cheap that stops the first 4 aging rolls. Or even that better medical technology pushes the life expectancy upward several terms, pushing back the aging rolls. :D)
 
Ok, here's another couple of dislikes:
  • A near complete absence of medical technology. Are you from a TL-15 world? Guess what, your life expectancy is the same as an inhabitant on a TL-0 world for all anyone reading the game can tell. Did you lose a limb at some time? I guess you get a to live with a stump in that billion-person city with gravitically supported spacescrapers 10 kilometers tall and FTL starships launching from the starport. Did you start losing characteristics based on age? Too bad that your TL-15 world has no legal options for you. Anagathics come up at some point in the game, but they're supremely expensive, the same effectiveness at all TLs (IIRC), are apparently the only thing anyone ever came up with, and are somehow treated as suspicious or illegal.
  • You could only play humans. (At least there was nothing in Books 1-5 that I remember.)
 
In all candor I just don't like CT's rules system. They're too limited, coarse and don't really let you create characters the way you want to play them. I prefer points buy systems, and I like a more detailed rpg rules system, like EABA or gurps.

The writing, the style, the setting, etc are OK, I just like a better system.
 
Ok, here's another couple of dislikes:
  • A near complete absence of medical technology. Are you from a TL-15 world? Guess what, your life expectancy is the same as an inhabitant on a TL-0 world for all anyone reading the game can tell. Did you lose a limb at some time? I guess you get a to live with a stump in that billion-person city with gravitically supported spacescrapers 10 kilometers tall and FTL starships launching from the starport. Did you start losing characteristics based on age? Too bad that your TL-15 world has no legal options for you. Anagathics come up at some point in the game, but they're supremely expensive, the same effectiveness at all TLs (IIRC), are apparently the only thing anyone ever came up with, and are somehow treated as suspicious or illegal.
Have to agree about medical tech. And its still abugaboo. Even now, every year that goes by seems to make trauma more survivable; add in any kind of way to replace physical losses, and you pretty much have resurrection from D&D. Basically, we end up with the rule that if you can be connected to medical help, you survive, and by tech 15, are as good as new, unless your brain is destroyed.

Fifth element touches on this - remember how the survivor they rebuilt from a severed hand ? The very definition of advanced tech and magic.

The anagathics I can sort of roll with, as there is the trope in literature that the immortal becomes either bored to death, or his brain simply becomes full, and beyond the capacity of a human to deal with. Also, sometime later, I ran across the backstory that Anagathics being illegal was a social engineering decision to allow any kind of cultural turnover at all levels -and that the Nobility was forbidden from using it, and advanced life extension, cybernetics etc. Not sure if that works.
  • You could only play humans. (At least there was nothing in Books 1-5 that I remember.)

This too. Stil, even more than the survival roll, this was probebly the most homeruled part of CT. But odd (and frustrating) nonetheless. I mean, they give you basic tools for building worlds and spaceships, why not aliens ?
 
Robert A. Heinlein got the right of it in Methuselah's Children, when the President of the USA said to Lazarus Long (aka Woodrow Wilson Smith), something along the lines of:

"I don't believe you have some secret formula for long life. But if I did, I would not hesitate to get it out of you."

He was right. Aging is a life or death issue. If it existed, people would not sit still for it being a secret.

We are, now, edging toward potential forms of life extension. It was a subject covered in traditional SF before Traveller, so it wasn't exactly something like widespread miniaturized wireless computers that is already here and nanotechnology nipping at its heels, both of which almost nobody was expecting in the 70s. No, medical SF technology was out there.

I cannot see any reason why at TL-12, a serum that blocked aging for N terms before exhausting itself would not be available. All services would provide it as a standard medical benefit. No aging rolls would be had during character generation as a result.

This would easily get around the issue of tired old grognards emerging from the character generation process in middle age or later.

--------------

I just rolled a Book 1 character, attempting following exact procedures. I rolled 2D6 for all stats and they came up pretty good (8, 9, 11, 7, 6, 3). I enlisted in the Army, survived, got a commission and promotion, and then failed to reenlist. Exactly why the Army has the highest reenlist roll is not clear. Mustering out benefits were Mid Psg and 10,000 cash.

I then enlisted in the Scouts and survived four terms before not reenlisting.

Age: 38 (middle age)

I picked up 11 skill points, three at 2 (Auto Rifle, Grav Belt, and Mechanics) and the rest at 1 (Revolver, Vacc Suit, Pilot, Electronics, and JoT), well within the Int+Edu limit (which technically I would not be using anyway as this is only Book 1). I picked up three stat points and lost three to aging rolls. Mustering out, I took three benefits and one cash. I got the worst possible benefits, Low Psg, Gun, and Blade. For cash, 30,000.

Twenty years for 11 skill points, and not even professional level skill at any of them. Physically speaking, it's only going to go downhill from here. How ridiculous. The CT career system creates barely-skilled about-to-be-old-men in space. :(

Unless, of course, this Science Fiction universe filled with awesome technological advances can shuck off such aging concerns in a far more hard-science fiction manner than FTL travel, which is basically looking more and more like a fantasy from a hard physics viewpoint. Then, the character would be physical age 18, actual age 38, no stat losses to aging. After discharge, the character would no longer get free life extensions and it can be yet another reason for the character to chase after money (i.e. RPG motivation).

--------------

I would like to add:
  • Unbalanced mustering-out benefits. Some are worthless, some are worth a great deal, side-by-side.
 
The CT career system creates barely-skilled about-to-be-old-men in space.

Boy, what do you think real life is?

First of all, what's that character doing having a career after his Army duty? Shoulda been adventuring already.

Second, a level 1 IS a professional level.
 
Boy, what do you think real life is?
Something to be avoiding in all RPGs at all costs, or at least, the dreariest most depressing elements of it, at least, unless you like that, boy. (SLA Industries is a pretty dark game... You should look over the Blam! RPG, too.)


First of all, what's that character doing having a career after his Army duty? Shoulda been adventuring already.
Trying to pick up some skills. Auto Rifle-2, Mechanical-1, and Revolver-1 does not a character make.

Second, a level 1 IS a professional level.
If you need Medical-3 to be considered a Doctor, then no it isn't. From just about the only example available, level-3 is professional.
 
If you need Medical-3 to be considered a Doctor, then no it isn't. From just about the only example available, level-3 is professional.

Although, if I were on the street with an open wound, I'd be pretty happy to run into a Medical-1 EMT any day of the week rather than bleed my life out waiting for a Med-3 doctor to get finished with his frelling golf.
 
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