What do you HATE about CT?
- Thread starter Murph
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Bob Weaver
SOC-12
If I were to say I hated something about CT (an emotion over-strong in this case) it would be that there were too MANY possibilities. Everywhere I turn I hear/read/see things that make me think "Hey, I could model that in CT if I . . . ". I have the idea of eventually turning some CT adventures into short stories or (Lord have mercy) a novel. But how to decide which bits to include? Sigh.
So that's my gripe.
Best Regards,
Bob Weaver
So that's my gripe.
Best Regards,
Bob Weaver
Bob Weaver
SOC-12
If I were to say I hated something about CT (an emotion over-strong in this case) it would be that there were too MANY possibilities. Everywhere I turn I hear/read/see things that make me think "Hey, I could model that in CT if I . . . ". I have the idea of eventually turning some CT adventures into short stories or (Lord have mercy) a novel. But how to decide which bits to include? Sigh.
So that's my gripe.
Best Regards,
Bob Weaver
So that's my gripe.
Best Regards,
Bob Weaver
shadowcat20
SOC-12
Ok,
I loved most of the game, dislikes were the combat system.
Never got into Book 1, AHL/Snapshot did not do for me either. Took to the Striker Pen system and just assigned different die damage based on light or Heavy wounds. Maybe a plus for overpenetrating a bit.
Never found a ship combat system I liked. it was too simple and abstract for me. I had TCS, HG, and Mayday. Seem to remember we cobbled up something of a house rule for combat in space.
I loved most of the game, dislikes were the combat system.
Never got into Book 1, AHL/Snapshot did not do for me either. Took to the Striker Pen system and just assigned different die damage based on light or Heavy wounds. Maybe a plus for overpenetrating a bit.
Never found a ship combat system I liked. it was too simple and abstract for me. I had TCS, HG, and Mayday. Seem to remember we cobbled up something of a house rule for combat in space.
ShapeShifter
SOC-13
GDW's lack of understanding of 'shelf-appeal' for the product-line. Cover art is a must to grab consumers' attention, and more interior art would have excited the imagination and set the tone of the game more readily. My Cr0.02. 
Robot-design rules. For these I import concepts/mechanics from WEG Star Wars.
Ship-design rules. More design possibilities would have been very welcome. I also import from WEG SW.
Fondness for long, geeky hex stats for planets, ships, robots, etc. Enough already. :eyeroll:
An overbearing official campaign universe to which (mostly grognardy) gamers demand absolute, unwavering adherence. Violators will be punished. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. This has the very unsavoury effect of stiffling creativity essential for a homebrewed campaign.
Too many formulae which try hard to give the game a veneer of plausibility, but even slack-jawed, non-physicists (myself included) know full well they are not even remotely accurate for the portrayal of RL phenomena.
Emphasis in chargen on martial careers. The genre is very broad and the game needed to address other kinds of life-paths. Supplements, though belated, did partially address this shortcoming. [SWN is brilliant in that it offers more character background and training possibilities.]
Robot-design rules. For these I import concepts/mechanics from WEG Star Wars.
Ship-design rules. More design possibilities would have been very welcome. I also import from WEG SW.
Fondness for long, geeky hex stats for planets, ships, robots, etc. Enough already. :eyeroll:
An overbearing official campaign universe to which (mostly grognardy) gamers demand absolute, unwavering adherence. Violators will be punished. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile. This has the very unsavoury effect of stiffling creativity essential for a homebrewed campaign.
Too many formulae which try hard to give the game a veneer of plausibility, but even slack-jawed, non-physicists (myself included) know full well they are not even remotely accurate for the portrayal of RL phenomena.
Emphasis in chargen on martial careers. The genre is very broad and the game needed to address other kinds of life-paths. Supplements, though belated, did partially address this shortcoming. [SWN is brilliant in that it offers more character background and training possibilities.]
Hate's such a strong word.
I dislike how Book 2 is woefully inadequate for representing small starships.
I dislike High Guard ship combat.
I dislike that Book 2 and HG are not one system.
I dislike the haphazard way skills are added to the game. (I don't think this was avoidable, however.)
I dislike the way robots are designed.
I dislike how armor is accounted for in combat.
I dislike that vehicle combat is not part of personal combat.
I dislike the complexity of the solution offered for many of these problems -- Striker.
I dislike the somewhat arbitrary nature of alien chargen as its grafted onto the rules.
I dislike how Book 2 is woefully inadequate for representing small starships.
I dislike High Guard ship combat.
I dislike that Book 2 and HG are not one system.
I dislike the haphazard way skills are added to the game. (I don't think this was avoidable, however.)
I dislike the way robots are designed.
I dislike how armor is accounted for in combat.
I dislike that vehicle combat is not part of personal combat.
I dislike the complexity of the solution offered for many of these problems -- Striker.
I dislike the somewhat arbitrary nature of alien chargen as its grafted onto the rules.
Hi
I think that hate is probably way too strong a term for me, as there isn't anything about CT that really rubs me the wrong way, though there are a couple small things that maybe don't quite work fully for me anymore. Though I guess alot of issues are really double-edged, where I like one aspect but not other aspects so much.
A guess one such issue would be completeness. CT was my 1st RPG, and I really enjoyed it. On one hand it was kind of nice that it was a relatively simple system and you were free to referee out some stuff as you wished, however, on the other hand as more books and supplements and stuff came out I kind of felt the need to buy everything in case there was a new rule or suggested way of doing something that hadn't been addressed before or to make sure I had the latest revision (such as for Book 5, etc).
Also, sometimes I wondered whether it would be better to use the original rulebooks or a later supplement or associated game like May Day or Snapshot, or AHL to handle doing stuff.
Another small thing is the core Universal Personality Profile and how its used in the game. Its not a big thing but as I've played other games I've discovered other systems (or parts of systems) whose mechanics or methods of handling character generation and damge that I like a little better.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Regards
PF
I think that hate is probably way too strong a term for me, as there isn't anything about CT that really rubs me the wrong way, though there are a couple small things that maybe don't quite work fully for me anymore. Though I guess alot of issues are really double-edged, where I like one aspect but not other aspects so much.
A guess one such issue would be completeness. CT was my 1st RPG, and I really enjoyed it. On one hand it was kind of nice that it was a relatively simple system and you were free to referee out some stuff as you wished, however, on the other hand as more books and supplements and stuff came out I kind of felt the need to buy everything in case there was a new rule or suggested way of doing something that hadn't been addressed before or to make sure I had the latest revision (such as for Book 5, etc).
Also, sometimes I wondered whether it would be better to use the original rulebooks or a later supplement or associated game like May Day or Snapshot, or AHL to handle doing stuff.
Another small thing is the core Universal Personality Profile and how its used in the game. Its not a big thing but as I've played other games I've discovered other systems (or parts of systems) whose mechanics or methods of handling character generation and damge that I like a little better.
Anyway, just some thoughts.
Regards
PF
- I hate the CT system of special rules per skill with no overall task system.
- I strongly dislike the Bk2/Bk5 dichotomy (and wish MWM and GDW had picked HG design in the '81 revision). Tho either one alone is ok as a design paradigm.
- I hate the big ships of HG. (Anything over 10KTd is bigger than I want IMTU)
- I really hate the HG combat system,
- Criticals rather than cumulative damage
- minimum resolution too high for Adventure Class Ships
- Semi-log scale for weapons per battery
- Not the same semi-log scales for various weapon types
- Almost no room for PC interaction with system
- Dislike Bk1 Combat being table driven. It works, and it's not to hate, but I find it mildly cumbersome.
- Dislike:Not enough skills per term in basic gen, and too many in advanced
- dislike Bk7 T&C
- Too bland
- All goods same base price per ton
mbrinkhues
SOC-14 1K
When I discoved the game in 198x I disliked:
+ All random character generation
+ The lack of details in the starship generation system
+ The published adventures availabel (Twilight Railway, Boredom of the Ancients...)
+ The Spinward Marches setting
+ Rules engine
+ German translation
CT almost killed Traveller for our group. Only MTs reworked rules (barely) safed the game, even then chargen was a so-so thing. And the german translation basically killed "hard" scifi in germany for decades.
+ All random character generation
+ The lack of details in the starship generation system
+ The published adventures availabel (Twilight Railway, Boredom of the Ancients...)
+ The Spinward Marches setting
+ Rules engine
+ German translation
CT almost killed Traveller for our group. Only MTs reworked rules (barely) safed the game, even then chargen was a so-so thing. And the german translation basically killed "hard" scifi in germany for decades.
Traveller
SOC-12
What did I not like about Classic Traveller?
Books 4-8: On the whole, with the exception of a few skills and a two weapons (specifically the PGMP-13 and FGMP-14 since they require battle dress to use) Books 4-7 were worthless to me when it came to playing Classic Traveller. Book 8, with the exception of the two pages of quick robot generation rules, was also useless to me. I blended the quick robot generation rules with the robot information from Adventure 2: Research Station Gamma into something that was as quick as human character generation.
Other Being Part of the Draft: Other isn't a military career and thus should not be subject to the draft. My house rules fix this by removing Other from the draft, and giving the player a choice of submitting to the draft or selecting a Supplement 4 career, although the player can still choose the Other if he desires something not covered by Supplement 4.
Marines and Vacc Suit Skill: A minor annoyance, Vacc Suit skill is replaced in the skill tables by Battle Dress skill.
Default Skills: It made no sense that a Marine would have the -5DM for being unskilled in Battle Dress, so I used the default skill list from MegaTraveller for each and every career. At the same time I used the Homeworld skills list from MT, though greatly simplified.
Armor/Weapon Matrix: This table tended to get ignored in my AD&D games, but didn't get ignored in Traveller or it would really throw off things. However it was years before I even acquired a Judges' Guild Traveller Screen and started using their charts. Space was at a premium in the LBBs but spending three pages in Book 1 on the combat charts instead of one would have made combat quicker. This definitely should have been fixed in The Traveller Book and Starter Traveller.
Starship Movement: Vectors...ugh! Give me Starter Traveller's range bands any day of the week.
Needless to say, all of the things I don't like about Traveller I fixed in the 2010 edition of my house rules. In fact, the LBB that makes up the house rules eliminates the need for me to carry Books 4, 5, and 8, Supplement 4, Adventure 2, and Starter Traveller with my copy of The Traveller Book.
Books 4-8: On the whole, with the exception of a few skills and a two weapons (specifically the PGMP-13 and FGMP-14 since they require battle dress to use) Books 4-7 were worthless to me when it came to playing Classic Traveller. Book 8, with the exception of the two pages of quick robot generation rules, was also useless to me. I blended the quick robot generation rules with the robot information from Adventure 2: Research Station Gamma into something that was as quick as human character generation.
Other Being Part of the Draft: Other isn't a military career and thus should not be subject to the draft. My house rules fix this by removing Other from the draft, and giving the player a choice of submitting to the draft or selecting a Supplement 4 career, although the player can still choose the Other if he desires something not covered by Supplement 4.
Marines and Vacc Suit Skill: A minor annoyance, Vacc Suit skill is replaced in the skill tables by Battle Dress skill.
Default Skills: It made no sense that a Marine would have the -5DM for being unskilled in Battle Dress, so I used the default skill list from MegaTraveller for each and every career. At the same time I used the Homeworld skills list from MT, though greatly simplified.
Armor/Weapon Matrix: This table tended to get ignored in my AD&D games, but didn't get ignored in Traveller or it would really throw off things. However it was years before I even acquired a Judges' Guild Traveller Screen and started using their charts. Space was at a premium in the LBBs but spending three pages in Book 1 on the combat charts instead of one would have made combat quicker. This definitely should have been fixed in The Traveller Book and Starter Traveller.
Starship Movement: Vectors...ugh! Give me Starter Traveller's range bands any day of the week.
Needless to say, all of the things I don't like about Traveller I fixed in the 2010 edition of my house rules. In fact, the LBB that makes up the house rules eliminates the need for me to carry Books 4, 5, and 8, Supplement 4, Adventure 2, and Starter Traveller with my copy of The Traveller Book.
nats
SOC-12
Old thread I resurrect thee...
Yes th JG referees screen weapons matrix was a distinctly great thing to behold and I have added to it myself - shame it gets the blade damage so wrong. The matrix in Snapshot though is correct and much better I am about to put it into a Excel file and will publish it on this site when done.
Noooo!! Have you actually played a game using the vector movement through an asteroid field - its great fun!!
Yes th JG referees screen weapons matrix was a distinctly great thing to behold and I have added to it myself - shame it gets the blade damage so wrong. The matrix in Snapshot though is correct and much better I am about to put it into a Excel file and will publish it on this site when done.
Noooo!! Have you actually played a game using the vector movement through an asteroid field - its great fun!!
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
It's also utter rubbish - asteroids are so far apart that you don't need to worry about missing more than one of them 
It's also utter rubbish - asteroids are so far apart that you don't need to worry about missing more than one of them
True. Although the few times I've done a vector-plotted LBB2 fight in the vicinity of a planet, it's been reasonably satisfying.
That said, most of my (solitaire) play has ended up either being range band combat or a kluge of Mayday and LBB2.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Hmm, I don't think I've responded to this topic before.
- Death during character creation was one of the single most colossally ill-considered aspects of game design in the history of roleplaying. I house-ruled it out of existence the moment I discovered it.
- Most Traveller characters, constructed honestly using Book 1, and if they didn't die during character creation, were largely incompetent to do much of anything. A mere glance through the characters in Supplement 1 show entry after entry of individuals barely competent to perform any task (with a short list of skills all at level 1). Those few with a significant skill were assured to have a random agglomeration of non-supporting skills. A glance in the Navy section shows officer after officer with no command skills of any kind. No wonder the Imperial Navy hasn't conquered much recently and was losing the Fifth Frontier War until Norris kicked them in the behind.
- Totally random character generation, especially for skills, prevented anyone from building the character they wanted. Did you want to play a doctor? Sorry, just keep re-rolling characters until you finally get one. How fun (not)! Traveller thus mandated wanting whatever popped out of the random generator. While this may work for the indecisive or the blase, it does not work for most players in most cases.
- Book 1 suggests character suicide through a tour as a Scout, with its low survival roll, as the best possible option to kill off hopeless characters. It was as though they recognized the inherent issues, but gave this as the work-around instead of fixing the character design system?
- There was no skill/task-resolution system.
- The combat system was oversimplified and I didn't like the given modifiers. The paragraph on resolving combat rolls does not mention skills, although it does mention that "relation" has an influence, whatever that is in this context.
- I despised the Book 2 starship construction rules. Second edition Book 5 was infinitely superior and remained one of the best I ever located. The only systems I found that were as remotely enjoyable were FASA's Renegade Legion system, and that construction system only worked for fighters and frigates (larger than fighters but still relatively small), and the Starfire system, which was very good at quickly building warships for wargaming, but held little to no feel (to me) for civil starships; both did little or nothing for roleplaying as High Guard did.
- The Book 2 speculative trade rules needed a preface that went, "Starship economics as provided is meant to encourage financial desperation that motivates roleplaying situations. The speculative trade system provided here is meant as a roleplaying adjunct to starship economics. Neither should be construed as a representation of actual economic principles or how starship trade is handled in the large scale for non-player characters and corporations."
- In Book 3, the world construction rules, while revolutionary in concept, did not take neighboring worlds and stellar society into account when determining population, government, tech level, starports, and bases. This produces tiny vacuum rocks with tens of billions of people and low tech levels and inferior starports when a neighboring garden world had a population of zero, a high tech level, and the best starport type available. I generated an entire subsector by hand once and I recall the basic world generation rules threw technology levels above 15 on two or three times. These issues were writ large when worlds for entire sectors of Charted Space were randomly generated. What works for one isolated world does not work for thousands of worlds.
- The careers from Books 4 and 5 absolutely stomped the careers from Book 1 and were superior, IMO, to those in Books 6 and 7. Once Books 4 and 5 appeared, I never wanted to build anything but marine and navy characters.
- The starship economic rules in Book 7 were sufficiently alien that I did not like them, though from a game balance viewpoint they were better than what had come before.
- Book 8 gave information about robots that, if carried to their logical conclusion, would have destroyed most of the premises of the Imperium and neighboring nations. Those robots could, with the proper construction, do anything. Piloting, navigation, gunnery, and engineering all at once? No problem.
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RoS I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but I don't know how much of that is coloured by 32 years experience in roleplaying games.
Thinking back I had two big issues. The first was related character generation. The dying during chargen was quickly house ruled away, lot like the re-enlistment rolls. It was very frustrating to end up with a character very different from what you wanted to play. Also the physical stats eroded by age and seeming low skill levels left me feeling flat.
The other big issue I had was there was no meaningful way to improve a character after start of game play. I think there were some rules for this but it meant pulling your character out of play for a time.
While today I can understand and even appreciate the grittiness. As a 13 year old used to relatively more powerful D&D characters it was not what I wanted to play. I wanted to Han Solo I always wound up with a work-a-day pilot who excelled at Stewart.
Yet despite my misgivings about chargen there was an undeniable attraction to the game. I loved the setting, and never really thought twice about the planet generation rules or starship design rules. I spent many enjoyable houses rolling up a sector and making up histories of the planets. Or cooking up my version of the Millennium Falcon.
R
Thinking back I had two big issues. The first was related character generation. The dying during chargen was quickly house ruled away, lot like the re-enlistment rolls. It was very frustrating to end up with a character very different from what you wanted to play. Also the physical stats eroded by age and seeming low skill levels left me feeling flat.
The other big issue I had was there was no meaningful way to improve a character after start of game play. I think there were some rules for this but it meant pulling your character out of play for a time.
While today I can understand and even appreciate the grittiness. As a 13 year old used to relatively more powerful D&D characters it was not what I wanted to play. I wanted to Han Solo I always wound up with a work-a-day pilot who excelled at Stewart.
Yet despite my misgivings about chargen there was an undeniable attraction to the game. I loved the setting, and never really thought twice about the planet generation rules or starship design rules. I spent many enjoyable houses rolling up a sector and making up histories of the planets. Or cooking up my version of the Millennium Falcon.
R
Back when, I certainly went with the "failed survival roll = injured out of service" option - which was established in the rules by the time I found the Little Black Box. The result was more powerful characters across the board, with much higher skill levels, because there was little reason not to take the risks involved with staying in service.
Of course, combining that optional rule with advanced character generation led to MUCH higher skill levels, and MANY more skills overall.
Keeping the death rule in place makes lower skill levels mean more.
Get rid of the re-enlistment rolls, and you might as well just give your character whatever stats and skills you like.
Of course, combining that optional rule with advanced character generation led to MUCH higher skill levels, and MANY more skills overall.
Keeping the death rule in place makes lower skill levels mean more.
Get rid of the re-enlistment rolls, and you might as well just give your character whatever stats and skills you like.
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