What Do X-boat Pilots Do?

[rancke]

Or more specifically I hate the way it can't do nested quotes the way it used to Makes some replies a friggan nightmare to compose or understand. Apologies in advance...

Doing nested quotes requires a bit of extra work, but it's quite doable. Just copy the bits you want to include using <crtl>-C, insert it using <crtl>-V, and type in the quote tags by hand.

Originally Posted by far-trader
Outside of Book 2 (meaning maneuver drives need a powerplant and huge amount of fuel)? No. But I'm not even sure that it was a design driven idea in the first place. I think it was a scenario driven design and that the whole complicated idea was the reason, not the result.

I think someone noticed that you could do a 100T jump-4 ship if you left out the maneuver drive and that the whole X-boat system arose from that. It seems more likely than someone saying, wouldn't it be neat if there was a system of courier ships that couldn't move on their own? After all, it's a pretty silly idea (IMNSHO). What scenario are you referring to? I'm not aware that there was an adventure involving X-boats until TD1.

Not a specific adventure, perhaps I should have said plot? I'm sure I recall it from some sci-fi novel, or at least the roots of it and much of the IISS raison d'etre. Just can't recall which novel(s) or author.

I don't think that counts as part of canon .

Originally Posted by far-trader
The idea being that maybe Book 5 is best explained as new mature tech and Book 2 as old obsolete tech.

That doesn't work. The Imperium has had jump-4 technology for 700 years, jump-5 for 400, and jump-6 for 100. The AHLs were designed with the technology described in HG back before the Solomani Rim War.

You misunderstand, I was not clear enough. Take the Book 2 builds as old Vilaini tech. Where you can get J6 much earlier than TL15 and not need a huge computer, but only on small hulls. And where maneuver drives are fusion torches (per Book 5 1st ed) and use a lot of fuel. Then Book 5 comes along to represent the modern Vilani tech where Jump is tied to TL and raw Computer power is required. But maneuver drives are no longer dangerous wasteful fusion torches but advanced gravitic thrusters that only need power.

That creates far bigger problems than it solves. You really can't give the Old Vilani jump-6 technology even for small ships. You can't give anyone jump-6 technology before they reach TL15 without messing with canon history something fierce.

I'm not saying it really works, it's just a vague wave at attempting to put the two in the same universe. Since despite the obvious bad idea it was, B2 is grandfathered into B5.

But if it doesn't really work (and I most emphatically agree that it doesn't), what's the point? It's like trying to fit a setting where the world is flat together with a setting where the world is round. No matter how much you'd like to grandfather that fabulous Adventure to the Edge of the World you enjoyed playing when you were younger, you just can't have ships falling off the edge of the round Earth (Unless you use magic, of course (http://disney.go.com/disneypictures/pirates/atworldsend/ :devil.

Originally Posted by far-trader
Or why if using Book 5 it's not 100tons with a lot more room for high maneuver, cargo, weapons, crew, etc. by utilizing drop tanks?

Drop tanks (or rather, the special capacitors you need to use them for jump) are a genuine new invention.

The special capacitors were part of HG 1st ed and dropped from HG 2nd ed. And it was TL12 for the capacitor making it available long before the later colour text introduces it in the timeline.

Probably not the same capacitors. The ones that made drop tanks possible can be built at TL9. They just weren't invented until the late 11th Century PI. What you call color text I call background information. Rules are abstractions of the "real" truth. Sometimes very far from the truth abstractions .



Hans

 

[aramis]

Hans: good catch, I missed the bridge. It's been edited.

Now, as for X-Boat crews time aboard...it's unlikely to be one-on-one-off.

The crewman is likely to be aboard the same boat for 4-6 weeks. Simply so he can have a social life, by being able to make it back to base. swapping a one man crew isn't hard, but it's one of those cases where how the network is set makes a big matter. I suspect a 2 SR design to be optimal since it would allow a SO and child (or even 2).

 

[Easterner9504]

J-Space

Steve,

P.S. Hans' idea is a good one, however I eschew it because it smacks of psionics and the hyperspace device pilots use for navigation in Niven's Known Space series.

I seem to recall LKW said psionics, J-space and J-space madness ARE linked. I think he said closing of GDW prevented follow up on that idea.

I went looking for it over at SJG but found nothing.

 

[rancke]

Now, as for X-Boat crews time aboard...it's unlikely to be one-on-one-off.

True. It's much more likely to be out/back/time off/out/back/time off/etc. :devil:

The crewman is likely to be aboard the same boat for 4-6 weeks. Simply so he can have a social life, by being able to make it back to base. Swapping a one man crew isn't hard, but it's one of those cases where how the network is set makes a big matter. I suspect a 2 SR design to be optimal since it would allow a SO and child (or even 2).

The Scout Service may or may not be benevolent enough to be willing to pay for their pilots to have a spouse and child along on those interminable tours of duty. Personally I doubt it; lots of historical and contemporary jobs required/require being away from home for several months, so why should the Scouts be an exception and molly-coddle their personnel that way? But if there happened to be spare room in a design for an extra stateroom, there are other reasons to include it. IMO none of them, including the 'spouse and kids' option, would justify leaving out a maneuver drive. No offense, but it's such a bizarre notion that I don't think anyone would have been willing to entertain it for a second if it hadn't happened to be a feature of original canon.


Hans

 

[Easterner9504]

Family

Who exactly takes their family on a trip where a small error kills them?

 

[BlackBat242]

What does an X-boat pilot do during his flight?

"What do the X-boat pilots do... to help them escape from their blues? They have some coping system... I haven't learned yet. Oh, what do the X-boat pilots do... we do not?"

Rank and title "inflation" for pay and morale purposes are commonplace. Babysitters are now "day care providers" and reporters are "journalists".

And janitors are now "Sanitation engineers".

There is a certain deep, innate pride some X-boat pilots have in their role.

Its also where you stick those who have (or have developed) "personal interaction disorder"... (they are disagreeable cusses who can't do one jump on a multi-person ship without making the others want to commit "mayhem & battery").

 

[aramis]

Who exactly takes their family on a trip where a small error kills them?

Most Crab boats. Most of them are family run. Dad and any sons who aren't in school and are 16+

 

[Zowy]

The small fishing fleet where I live, has lost 2 ships this winter. Small inshore Crab boat lost power and hit the beach before the Coast Guard could get to them, 2 out of 3 people dead. Don't remember why the other one was lost.


http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5716a2.htm


During 2000--2006, commercial fishing was one of the most dangerous occupations in the United States, with an average annual fatality rate of 115 deaths per 100,000 fishermen. By contrast, the average annual occupational fatality rate among all U.S. workers during the same period was four deaths per 100,000 workers

 

[Andrew Boulton]

But that would be an Engineer not a Pilot

(not that I don't disagree, it would make more sense imo if crewing were done that way)

S7 does actually say Pilot/Engineer.

Why not J5+?

- price
- availability of spares
- gov/military want faster communications for themselves

Why no MD?

- price
- to make sure the pilot can't run off with the ship & data

 

[skyth]

According to the MT Cannon, Xboats are jump 4 to limit communication speed. (The official reason is cost savings and jump 4 being fast enough) There are Jump 6 boats, but those are secret and limited to imperial communications. This is how Norris became an Archduke. (He heard about the assassnation previously and used a blank form to have Stephron elevate him as one of his last actions)

 

[samuelvss]

Who exactly takes their family on a trip where a small error kills them?

Most Crab boats. Most of them are family run. Dad and any sons who aren't in school and are 16+

Looking at the link Zowy posted gives some good insight into this question. The Alaska fisheries (in an extremely deadly business) got safer because of government intervention to compel emergency equipment be fully used. The question is not whether folks will take their families into harm's way (history is replete with examples where we do precisely that), but rather when would a government policy support this, even to the extent of crucial modifications on equipment design to support it. If a family business goes down with the family aboard, it is sad; if a government ship kills a family it is an outrage.

On the family question, I think it would be run much like airlines: seniority gives one the ability to get the route you want, which could be out and back to momma, and a week off. The new guys cover what needs covered.

The staterooms make sense as an asset for priority transport of crucial officials without the extra expense of fleet couriers, and to deadhead personnel around. Scout couriers exist to, among their other functions, take up the slack.

 

[rancke]

According to the MT Cannon, Xboats are jump 4 to limit communication speed. (The official reason is cost savings and jump 4 being fast enough) There are Jump 6 boats, but those are secret and limited to imperial communications. This is how Norris became an Archduke. (He heard about the assassnation previously and used a blank form to have Stephron elevate him as one of his last actions)

Yet another case where subsequent information invalidated previously published information, only unfortunately some of the even later authors didn't realize that, so they used the original information.

* The Navy's jump-6 couriers are not secret, and Norris wouldn't actually have had any lead time, because 34 Fleet admirals plus whichever nobles they chose to share the information with (maybe their subsector dukes?) would know about it at roughly the same time.

* Although not mentioned in canon, it would be extremely implausible if the Megacorporations didn't have their own jump-6 couriers.

* Although not stated explicitly in canon, the fact that the ship construction rules allow rich PCs to have jump-6 ships built implies that jump-6 is available to civilians. If a random rich guy can buy one, so can a passenger company. Which implies the existence of jump-6 passenger liners between the important high-population worlds like, for instance, Mora and Capital. Which implies that news spreads at a rate of, oh, 5.5 parsecs per week along the major traffic routes.


Hans

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Only the gov/Navy have the infrastructure to support long-range J6 routes.

 

[samuelvss]

Assuming that you follow the basic rules that an X-boat jumps transmitts, gets serviced & refueled and then off it goes again.

That would make 1 week jump, 1 week (or less) of work time repeated 25+ times in 1 year.

Online Courses, Learn a new language, pick up a new 0 Level skill/Knowledge, take along some physical company or ?

First, what I would do and what the boss lets me do are, strangely, a bit different.

I would assume that refueling and servicing actually takes less than a 24 hour period. The boat [of a senior pilot] jumps from Efate to Lysen, transmits, refuels, pilot has a few hours to do/learn his new flight plan and sleep while quickie maintenance is done on that boat, and he jumps back to Efate on the next day's run. Then, he probably gets 4 to 10 days off with momma, and picks his next boat up. Boats and pilots are switched to keep the system flowing. When the pilot does his "turn and burn" at Lysen, he may take another boat back, based on maintenance needs, etc.. If he's a junior guy, he probably goes all around Robinhood's barn to take the routes noone likes.

The number of "off" days is run not on maintenance, but to assure retention. The junior guys put up with it because it can be a pretty good deal once they make some seniority. This is what I really liked about LBB1 scouts: everybody's a pilot. When the need arises, everyone can take a boat. Very much like my buddy in the highway department: he was an engineer, but when there was a blizzard, everybody drove a plow. A week in every port is not needed, and would be counter-productive, IMHO, unless the pilot's got one in every port....

 

[mike wightman]

Only the gov/Navy have the infrastructure to support long-range J6 routes.

I would add megacorps to that list.

 

[coliver988]

I would add megacorps to that list.

and in some places they are the government...

 

[epicenter00]

So what does he do? X-boats could be significantly more efficient if they were just self-contained, jump-capable robots without interior room sacrificed to a crew compartment and life support.

Here's an idea: Perhaps it's the "make-work" job for the Imperium for people like former veterans and so on who have been crippled/injured, especially mentally. This wouldn't be for everyone; too many vets but for vets and so on who have been decorated multiple times and are considered "heroes of the Imperium" but find they are psychologically uninclined to hold a job during peacetime anymore, especially when they fill the void in their lives with anti-social habits. The ship basically flies itself so not much knowledge is required to "fly" it yet long-standing Imperial tradition says someone has to be aboard. The men (and women) get paid and while their (minimal) living expenses are met by the Imperium - these men and women often send their paychecks to their (estranged) families to fund their kids university educations and so on (and perhaps plastic surgery for their abused spouses or whatever). Keeping them in jump most of the time keeps them out of trouble and gives them the solitude many of them crave yet give them the opportunity to feel useful - it also prevents these problem types from indulging or developing the anti-social. Perhaps many of the features of the ship are specifically designed with backups and so on to prevent self-destructive types from taking the ship with them.

Every so often, the crew at the end of the jump boards the ship and finds the vet has committed suicide. This is expected as well. They simply clean up the ship, give the guy or gal a honorable but secret funeral and spread the news around he or she has been "transferred to the other end of the Imperium." Then the ship is refurbished and made ready for its next vet.

 

[rancke]

Only the gov/Navy have the infrastructure to support long-range J6 routes.

What do you need to support a jump-6 ship? The money to buy it and the money to maintain it. There are even individuals who could afford it. You'd need to be a multi-billionaire, but there are LOTS of multi-billionaires in the TU. For governments of worlds like Mora, Trin, Rhylanor, and Glisten it'd be a minute fraction of their military budgets. For interstellar transport companies it just requires enough passengers willing to pay the extra cost in order to get back and forth 50% faster.


Hans

 

[boomslang]

* How about a 4bis computer instead? OK, it's not listed on the computers list, but if you can make a 1bis at TL6 and a 2bis at TL8, surely you can make a 4bis at TL11.

Actually, you would only need a Model/3bis, to handle the Jump-4 duties.

As far-trader mentioned, there is a rule for them in HG1; basically you pay twice the cost at a TL higher for twice the CPU and no Storage and the dtonnage of the original Model -- so for an extra MCr6 base cost, you could save 1 dton by swapping out the Model/4 with a Model/3bis.

Some Commo-Branch-wide cost/benefit analysis would be required to see if it is worth the refit.

Another issue that may be being overlooked here is salvage -- an Xboat without a living soul aboard is technically a derelict, and subject to salvage claims by the unscrupulous. Note that the way salvage laws traditionally work, the IISS would still retain ownership of the vessel, but a 'finder's fee' might reasonably be assessed by a claim court.

This is why I would like to ditch the second stateroom for an M-drive and an emer low berth (plus adding a hardpoint and a fixed weapons mount, but that's just me). But this spec that aramis posted--

Bk 2 (post-1981) Design
100 Hull
015 JD B (J4)
007 PP B (P4)
040 J4 Fuel
020 Bridge
010 1Wk PP Fuel
004 Model 4
004 Stateroom
===
100 Td

is the best default retcon available. Dropping a Model/3bis in there will leave exactly enough room for an M-drive-A -- but you might want to go with the 150-to-175-hour Jump duration from HG2 rather than the 168 ± 10% from Jumpspace, to hopefully leave a few hours' worth of Fuel post-Jump-4...

 

[Andrew Boulton]

What do you need to support a jump-6 ship? The money to buy it and the money to maintain it. There are even individuals who could afford it. You'd need to be a multi-billionaire, but there are LOTS of multi-billionaires in the TU. For governments of worlds like Mora, Trin, Rhylanor, and Glisten it'd be a minute fraction of their military budgets. For interstellar transport companies it just requires enough passengers willing to pay the extra cost in order to get back and forth 50% faster.


Hans

It's not just *a* ship, it's an Imperium-spanning network of 1000s, and everything that goes with it.