Wanderer: Oar and Sail

[robject]

This is a spin-off started on Mercator's thread (http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?p=463574#post463574).

Rules Concepts

A ship starts with a Standard Size, Hull Strength 4, Speed 0, Cargo 0,Troops 0, a Basic (primitive) Sail, and Agility 4. It costs 1,000 staters.

Choose 9 design points for each ship, from the following list:

• Speed+1
• Cargo+1
• Troops+1 (2 groups of troops qualifies the ship as a Galley)
• Hull Strength+1
• Deep Draft (no drift)
• Platforms fore and aft
• Lookout
• Ram (+100 Staters)
• Spur
• Cabin Space
• Weatherly (for rough weather)
• Greek Fire (+500 Staters) [TL1]
• Square Rig+1 (+200 Staters) [TL2]
• Lateen Rig+1 (+300 Staters) [TL2]

NOTE 1: The first purchase of rigging replaces the primitive sail; additional purchases adds a mast and Agility+1.
NOTE 2: The design can trade its Basic Sail for No Sail + Weatherly.

Next, alter the ship's size if you like.

• Light (Hull Strength-1, Agility+1, Cost 50%)
• Heavy (Hull Strength+1, Agility-1, Cost 200%)
• VHeavy (Hull Strength+2, Agility-2, Cost 300%)
• XHeavy (Hull Str+3, Agility-3, Cost 400%).

Finally, calculate physical data.
Length = 5m x Hull Strength
Load = Cargo x Hull Strength, in pithoi
Troop Units = Troops x Hull Strength

EXAMPLES

NAME                    Row Sail H-CT-Spd-Str Agl Len Load Troop  Cost   Notes
----------------------- --- ---- ------------ --- --- ---- ----   -----  -----
Minoan Trader (1700 BC)  y       S-32  4   4   4  20m   12   8    1,000
Pentekontor (800 BC)     y       H-02  4   7   3  35m    0  14    2,000  P, S
Drakkar (8C)             y       H-13  4   6   3  30m    6  18    2,000  P
Dromon (12C)             y   L   X-02  4   7   1  35m    0  14    5,400  G, P
Khalissa (13C) (Dhow)        L   S-20  6   4   4  20m    8   0    1,300   
Sambuk (13C) (Slaver)        L2  S-11  5   4   5  20m    4   4    1,600   
Cog (13C)                    S   S-30  3   4   4  20m   12   0    1,200  D
Caravel (15C)                L2  S-10  5   4   5  20m    4   0    1,600  W
Wa’akaukahi canoe        y   no  L-02  7   3   5  15m    0   6      500  W
Wa‘a kaulua canoe        y       H-12  5   5   3  25m    5  10    2,000  W

NOTES: D: Deep Draft; G: Greek Fire; P: Platforms; S: Spur; W: Weatherly

Historical Data

From "The Story of Sail", I get these concepts:

Early Medium/Long Merchant Galley. 6m beam. Ex: various Mediterranean traders, -16c
Early Medium War Galley. 6m beam, heavy upper yard, lookout/archer station, ram. Ex: Egyptian warship, -12c.
Medium/Long War Galley. 4m beam, rostrum. Ex: Triakonter, Pentekonter, Liburna, etc. -7c onwards.
Seaworthy Medium War Galley. 5m beam. Ex: Drakkar/Longship, 8c.
Improved Medium War Galley. 5m beam, spur. Ex: Sagittas, 12c.
Improved Long War Galley. 5m beam, fore/aft platforms, castles, or catapults, firespout. Ex: Dromon, 12c.

Short Sail. 5m beam, shallow draught, perfect for storm winds. Ex: Dhow/Khalissa, 13c.
Medium Narrow Sail. Weatherly, easy to handle, efficient. Ex: Sambuk, Dhow, Slaver, 13c.
Short Merchant Sail. Deep draught, decked. Foc'sle and bowsprit. Strong hull. Ex: Cog, 13c.
Advanced Short Merchant Sail. Shallow draught. Very unwieldly with lateen sails. Ex: Caraval, 15c.

===

Short: appx 16-20m
Medium: appx 22-28m
Long: appx 30-34m

"Merchant": wider beam, slower, more payload.
"War": narrower, faster, less payload.

Early ships: width+1; less efficient sail; lower yard present; less seaworthy.
Standard ships: width+1; less efficient sail; less seaworthy.
Improved: normal width; decent sail; seaworthy.
Modified:
Advanced: weatherly and seaworthy.

Narrow: Decreased beam for speed, but less seaworthy.
Wide: Increased beam for improved seaworthiness, but slower.
Shallow draught: able to access estuaries and rivers.
Deep draught: able to withstand storms and hold a course.

Square sail: runs fast with the wind.
Lateen sail: more agile, can sail into the wind.

Rostrum: underwater extension of the keel to strike enemy ships.
Spur: above-water version of the rostrum.
Ram: a ram, of course.

 

[Timerover51]

I think that I missed something here. You are using the ships from Paul Elliot's Mercator module for Traveller, and plugging them into something called Wanderer. What is Wanderer?

I have downloaded Paul's Mercator module, but need to look at it a bit more.

 

[robject]

I think that I missed something here. You are using the ships from Paul Elliot's Mercator module for Traveller, and plugging them into something called Wanderer. What is Wanderer?

Yes, sir, things are a mess over in this corner, as I have a setting in mind (Wanderer) but a different supplement (Mercator) to draw from. Mercator has the benefit of existing, and being sort of the resolution I'm aiming for. In brief, Wanderer is the use of Traveller for fantasy gaming, of the Homeric/Conan/Sinbad variety. That's why I have such a range of ship types, although it's useful to focus on Classical or Late Antiquity and let various modifiers penalize more primitive stuff.

At this point I want to specify what I want the system to do. You can't help me unless you know what I'm looking for, and I do appreciate your offer of help.

 

[Vladika]

Is Mercator2 in the Public Domain? If not I just unwittingly pirated it. Thought it was a review but it turned out to be the entire pdf.

A quick glance shows it to be pretty interesting.

If it helps in answering the pirate issue, this was on the inside "flap":

MERCATOR
Copyright Paul Elliott 2009
Traveller is copyright Far Future Enterprises
This book is a fan product, unendorsed by FFE and not intended for publication.
Illustrations are from Axel Nelson’s maritime site: http://www.axelnelson.com/skepp/corbita.htm
Contact Paul Elliott at zozer@btinternet.com
These add on rules require the following books: Traveller Book 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, and
Supplement 4.

 

[atpollard]

Is Mercator2 in the Public Domain? If not I just unwittingly pirated it. Thought it was a review but it turned out to be the entire pdf.

I think that it is Freeware, but not public domain.
Like all of the stuff that you can download for free on DriveThruRPG.

The author wants to make it available to anyone that wants to play, but doesn't want anyone to steal it and take credit for creating it.

it is available for free download from the author's website

 

[Vladika]

I think that it is Freeware, but not public domain.
Like all of the stuff that you can download for free on DriveThruRPG.

The author wants to make it available to anyone that wants to play, but doesn't want anyone to steal it and take credit for creating it.

it is available for free download from the author's website

Thanks! Now I don't have to feel bad knowing it is free on the author's site. (I found it elsewhere.)

 

[robject]

The bit on sailing ships in Mercator is nice and short. So what I'm aiming for is a ship description that will get my group of player characters from one port to the next, in this sort of manner:

Day 1. Left port, hugging the coastline, due to (1) the ship's low freeboard, and (2) the ship's shallow draught. Going with the wind, the Medium-length vessel made 4 hexes in a day's travel. Some time was lost making up distance, since the shallow draught caused the ship to be pushed off course a bit. Dragged the ship up onto shore and made camp.

Day 2. Stowed the sail and started upriver. Made 2 hexes up the river and got attacked by brigands; lookout station doubles nicely as archer's nest. Later, made 2 more hexes upriver. Camped on the banks.

Day 3. 2 hexes to town. Exchanged 10 pithoi of trade goods for more pithoi, some silver, and a passenger. Headed further upriver 1 hex.



(A deeper draught would have lessened the leeway problem and increased cargo capacity, but this ship is designed to navigate shallow rivers.)

(Hasty generalizations could simply handwave the average speeds to 100 miles per day, or about 4 knots, whether by sail or by rowers, with variations based on ship length, ship condition, load, layovers, and weather. Of course if you're sailing into the wind, you'll zig-zag on the hexmat, reducing effective speed.)

 

[Timerover51]

Yes, sir, things are a mess over in this corner, as I have a setting in mind (Wanderer) but a different supplement (Mercator) to draw from. Mercator has the benefit of existing, and being sort of the resolution I'm aiming for. In brief, Wanderer is the use of Traveller for fantasy gaming, of the Homeric/Conan/Sinbad variety. That's why I have such a range of ship types, although it's useful to focus on Classical or Late Antiquity and let various modifiers penalize more primitive stuff.

At this point I want to specify what I want the system to do. You can't help me unless you know what I'm looking for, and I do appreciate your offer of help.

Thank you for the clarification. So basically, nautical vessels up to about 1500 with no gunpowder would cover what you are looking for, and I assume from the Homeric/Conan/Sindbad background that magic is included as well.

For merchant ships, they were often called "round ships" as the typical length to beam ratio was between 2 and 4, with 4 being about the maximum.

For galleys, your typical length to beam ratio was between 6 and 10, with 10 the maximum that wood structures could handle somewhat safely. If you are allowing for some magical reinforcement, you could conceivably go higher, but stability would become a big issue.

Your classic galley did not do well outside of the Mediterranean and Black Sea area, as it needs somewhat sheltered waters. The North Atlantic is the roughest ocean on the planet, except maybe for the Southern/Antarctic Ocean. There is an interesting account in Tacitus on the disaster that overtook a Roman fleet of galleys and transports in the North Sea during the time of either Augustus or Tiberius. The North Sea is bad too, as is the English Channel. I put these in as I do not know if you are using Earth as your planet.

Norse sea battles were not your classic galley fights, with ramming. The Norse would tie their ships together in a long row, and then basically have a land battle on them. Losers went overboard to drown, as did those that missed a step. During the Renaissance, that became the norm, as least the focus on boarding, for the Med as well. Ramming takes a highly maneuverable ship and a significant disparity in skill levels between the crews. The Medieval Period galley spur served as both a boarding bridge and a means of shattering the other galleys oar bank or apostis, which was the wooden frame outside of the galley hull proper that had the oarlocks mounted on it. Shattering either the oars on one beam or the apostis rendered the damaged galley unmanageable and easy to attack.

One other thing to consider. While most nations used slaves and criminals to row the galleys, especially during the Medieval period, the Venetians used paid oarsmen, who would join in any boarding action using short swords and shields, giving them a big edge in manpower, but also meaning that when a Venetian galley committed to a boarding action, it was a win or die situation. No retreat was possible.

 

[Blue Ghost]

A special note on the lanteen rig; it is an Arabic innovation, and, as you cited in yoru chart, it allows sail powered vessels to tack upwind, but was not widely adapted until much later. Polynesian vessels had a similar concept, but a wildly different sail to get their multihull designs to cut through the Pacific.

Blue Ghost, sailor since I was five. I've sailed Hobie Cats, big racing yachts (40 and 50 footers) and have done numerous traditional one to two man in shore and off shore sail boats.

 

[Timerover51]

A special note on the lanteen rig; it is an Arabic innovation, and, as you cited in yoru chart, it allows sail powered vessels to tack upwind, but was not widely adapted until much later. Polynesian vessels had a similar concept, but a wildly different sail to get their multihull designs to cut through the Pacific.

Blue Ghost, sailor since I was five. I've sailed Hobie Cats, big racing yachts (40 and 50 footers) and have done numerous traditional one to two man in shore and off shore sail boats.

Hmm, you have the practical experience that I do not have. My knowledge is based on a lot of study and reading. You could call me a frustrated naval officer.

 

[Vladika]

(Hasty generalizations could simply handwave the average speeds to 100 miles per day, or about 4 knots, whether by sail or by rowers, with variations based on ship length, ship condition, load, layovers, and weather. Of course if you're sailing into the wind, you'll zig-zag on the hexmat, reducing effective speed.)

4 knots??? Not by sail on those ship unless running (downwind). By oar? For short periods.

As far as tacking (your "zig-zag")? A square sail and a narrow, fast hull, CAN very marginally, go upwind. Not much better than a beam reach, but not as well as a close reach. Forget close hauled altogether.

If anyone doubts this, just put your "raft" (that's about how those early cargo ships handled) in the water and give it a shot.

Sailor here too since about 8 years old, now 57. Lower Chesapeake Bay, Atlantic coast Maine to Florida (Plus Bermuda), Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico. Azores trip cut short due to crew illness and weather. 15' Albacore 15 up to 63' Richleigh 63. (I don't count sail fish.)

 

[aramis]

Hmm, you have the practical experience that I do not have. My knowledge is based on a lot of study and reading. You could call me a frustrated naval officer.

Yeah, the army has surprisingly few officer billets in its boat service. Loads of SNCOs, tho'.

I was going to mention the Maori Waka and other Polynesian sailing canoes... their crab-claw rigging is, functionally, a lateen rig, but easier still to tack, because of the booms. Despite BG's claims of radical difference, it has the same operating regime, the same size and shape of triangular sail. For Game purposes, it is a variety of lateen rig.

 

[Timerover51]

Should have qualified that a little. No experience on sailing ships, some on powered vessels.

As for speed, the average speed of classical round ships, Greco-Roman, was between 3 and 4 knots, based on a fair number of accounts giving sailing days between known ports. The top speed for a classic galley, a Trireme, for about a 20 minutes burst, was circa 11 to 12 knots. Sustained speed with part of the oarsmen rowing and part resting, could range from 6 to 9 knots. The much larger and heavier galleys of the Medieval era were good for maybe 7 to 8 knots for short periods.

For the Norse "knorr", the typical trading ship, the Norse figured an average speed of 5 knots for a 24 hour run, while a 6-oared ship's boat could be rowed at 2.5 to 3 knots over 12 hours or so. A replica of a Gokstad ship, a "karv", about half way between a Knorr and a Longship, sailed across the Atlantic in 1893 from Bergen to Newfoundland in less than 30 days, and at times made 11 knots. Another replica of a small knorr crossed the Atlantic in 1932, and with a "beitass pole", basically a yard allowing the use of the square sail on the mast to function almost like a fore-and-aft sail, sailed to within 5 points, or slightly better than a 60 degree angle into the wind. This data comes from Farley Mowat's book, Westviking.

Edit Note: Sons of Sindbad, by Alan Villiers, gives a very interesting account of a voyage on an Arab trading "Boom", a type of Dhow, using lateen sails, in 1939. Frank Bullen's Cruise of the Cachalot is an excellent account of life on a sailing whaling ship in the 1870s and 1880s, and gives a very good idea as to life on a merchant sailing ship in general. Bullen made 4 whaling voyages, rising from able seaman to first mate in the course of so doing. The Whaling Museum at Mystic Seaport, Connecticutt, has the logs of all four of the ships Bullen sailed in. The Bullen book can be downloaded at Project Gutenberg, along with a lot of other sailing accounts, including Joshua Slocum's books. If you are thinking of having PCs onboard of a sailing ship, I would highly recommend perusing them.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Aramis; I seem to recall that Polynesian sails are "circular" or round with a big "hole" where the fat meaty section of the Arabic / European lanteen sail would be.

 

[Vladika]

Yeah, the army has surprisingly few officer billets in its boat service. Loads of SNCOs, tho'.

I was going to mention the Maori Waka and other Polynesian sailing canoes... their crab-claw rigging is, functionally, a lateen rig, but easier still to tack, because of the booms. Despite BG's claims of radical difference, it has the same operating regime, the same size and shape of triangular sail. For Game purposes, it is a variety of lateen rig.

The Maori Waka did NOT tack or in any other way go to windward. It takes a bit more than a triangle sail, or even fore and aft rigging, to sail to windward.

The head of the triangle sail was the shortest-about 2m and often decorated with tufts of feathers which may have served as wind indicators. The mast was held in place by a forestay ,a backstay and 2 side stays. The sheet to control the sail angle lead from the top of the yard lead directly to the sheet handler although early British sailors were critical of the sheet being tied off. The sail was only used down wind as the waka lacked a keel or centre board to prevent leeway therefore preventing windward sailing.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waka_(canoe)

In addition, with the materials used, you are not going the get the right "lifting body" shape like you can even for canvas. This is why sailmakers, as a profession, are highly sough out, then and now.

The roughly triangular sail, usually made from either flax, ti leaves or raupo(bullrushes) or a combination,was...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waka_(canoe)

 

[aramis]

The Maori Waka did NOT tack or in any other way go to windward. It takes a bit more than a triangle sail, or even fore and aft rigging, to sail to windward.

Funny, but a recent show demonstrates a waka making tacking turns. Few sail designs allow direct upwind sailing. most allow forward quarter.

The Crab Claw also generates an airfoil. All triangular sails will if bound to the upright spar. So will rectangulars or trapezoids, when bound to the upright, but they need a topspar to hold shape.

 

[Piper]

All triangular sails will if bound to the upright spar. So will rectangulars or trapezoids, when bound to the upright, but they need a topspar to hold shape.

Like the battened lugsail on a Chinese junk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship)

which is nearly as old as a lateen.

I had heard that the junk rig was the most efficient sailplan right up until the invention of the modern Bermuda rig.

 

[Vladika]

Like the battened lugsail on a Chinese junk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_(ship)

which is nearly as old as a lateen.

I had heard that the junk rig was the most efficient sailplan right up until the invention of the modern Bermuda rig.

Please note that the Junk, in the picture you linked, DOES have lee boards.

Some form of lateral resistance below the waterline is ESSENTIAL for windward sailing. Without said resistance, it isn't possible. There is far more to sailing than just a sail.

Again, your picture, look at it.

The Maori Waka did not have such. Whatever aramis saw HAD to have something added to the original design. Ask any sailor about the need for lateral resistance.

Funny, but a recent show demonstrates a waka making tacking turns.

What kind of verifiable source quote is this?

BTW, anyone can make "tacking turns" (coming about) and make nothing but leeway all day long.

Few sail designs allow direct upwind sailing. most allow forward quarter.

NO sail, anywhere, any time, allows "direct upwind sailing".

The Crab Claw also generates an airfoil. All triangular sails will if bound to the upright spar. So will rectangulars or trapezoids, when bound to the upright, but they need a topspar to hold shape.

True, so? Again, without lateral resistance it doesn't matter.

The internet doesn't create instant experts. Reading one part of something without understanding enough to ask the other pertinent questions will invariably mislead.

 

[Piper]

Please note that the Junk, in the picture you linked, DOES have lee boards.

Some form of lateral resistance below the waterline is ESSENTIAL for windward sailing. Without said resistance, it isn't possible. There is far more to sailing than just a sail.

Again, your picture, look at it.

The Maori Waka did not have such. Whatever aramis saw HAD to have something added to the original design. Ask any sailor about the need for lateral resistance.



What kind of verifiable source quote is this?

BTW, anyone can make "taking turns" (coming about) and make nothing but leeway all day long.



NO sail, anywhere, any time, allows "direct upwind sailing".



True, so? Again, without lateral resistance it doesn't matter.

The internet doesn't create instant experts. Reading one part of something without understanding enough to ask the other pertinent questions will invariably mislead.

You know ... normally I try to just let this type of response pass without comment but, honestly. did you even read what I posted?
My post referenced sailplan only. Since every sailplan benefits from resistance when going to windward, I assumed that was a given.

No one claimed direct upwind sailing and I made NO claims regarding your wacky-waka or whatever it is.

 

[Vladika]

You know ... normally I try to just let this type of response pass without comment but, honestly. did you even read what I posted?
My post referenced sailplan only. Since every sailplan benefits from resistance when going to windward, I assumed that was a given.

No one claimed direct upwind sailing and I made NO claims regarding your wacky-waka or whatever it is.

Offending post deleted.

My apologies then. aramis brought up the "wacky-waka", which can't sail upwind.

I misunderstood your intent and, erroneously, thought you were trying to bolster his false premise. Again, my apologies.

BTW, I'm very vision impaired (near blind) and often miss the obvious. Not an excuse, just a reason.